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Who will you vote for in the 2012 presidential election...

Who will you vote for in the 2012 Presidential Election?

  • Total voters
    113
MadLib said:
Arbo, would you prefer a surgeon with an MD or one with a bachelor's in medical?
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If they did not have an MD, they could not legally perform surgery on humans.

lpast said:
I respect people that worked to get a PHD...but some PHDs are fairly worthless...I had a cop working for me that had a PHD in Chinese Philosophy from Univ of Hawaii...I guess he didnt figure on how he was going to fit that in to making a living..
THe other example I would like to give is Audiologists with PHDs that fit hearing aids...the same thing Audioprostologists have done with a HS education for decades...masters and PHD in hearing aid programming is overkill...
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+1.
 
Tucker Case said:
I'm using the definition set forth by IQ tests, for lack of a better more inclusive definition. I figured that would be clear given the fact that I cite a low IQ score as an indicator of a lack of intelligence, despite strong math skills.

What definition of intelligence are you using?
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Skills in mathematics typically go hand in hand with a pretty good IQ.

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Occupations.aspx

Let's get back to the debate now that started this. However you want to filter (education, IQ test, etc.), those voting on something should have a sufficient understanding of it by some standard.
 
mbig said:
That, like everything you post is both False AND Fallacious debate.
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:lol: when you actually understand what those words mean, I'll believe you when you use them. Now, I expect you to use them accurately in a sentence in order to demonstrate that you know what they mean. Don't just go tossing them around in ignorance of their actual meanings like you normally do.

High SAT Math scores and math in general would Correlate with IQ.
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whoop de woo.

Many, many people with high IQ's aren't very good at math and many many people are better at math than they are at IQ tests.

Tucker then goes on to use one of the all time classic fallacies, debate by anecdote. 'He knows a guy who's good at math but has a lower IQ than 75'.
Even if true, which is doubtful unless he knows an idiot savant, it's a meaningless claim of probable exception.
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It's autistic savant, not idiot savant.

And actually that was what the person in question was. And I didn't say I knew him, I said I've met him. If you were even 1/3rd as intelligent as you like to pretend to be, you'd know the difference between "met" and "know".

And providing an anecdotal example that can be confirmed as something that does, in fact, exist in order to disprove a false assumption being made is not a fallacy, despite your ignorance of what fallacies are.

See, the assumption is "People who do well on math tests are intelligent". Not likely to be intelligent (which is why your nonsense about correlations is irrelevant) but are intelligent. That's a one to one correlation, and that's just not the case. People do not need a high IQ in order to perform well on math tests. That's a fact, and despite your abuses against the word fallacy, it will always be a fact. That's the great thing about reality, it doesn't give a **** if you agree with it or not.
 
mbig said:
And thanks for the admission on IQ, it will make my already cued up reply in another string even more poignant.
Also shows how 'flexible' you are in your attempts at winning a debate.
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Actually, you are right, but not for the reasons that you think you are.

I did cite IQ here without noting the problems inherent in that test. Granted, I did say "for lack of a better more inclusive definition", but I suppose you didn't see those words when you purposefully didn't include them in the bolded parts. I'm sure that's honest in your world.


But I digress. I was citing the test with relation to an autistic savant, and that actually is unfair and intellectually dishonest of me. It's entirely possible that autistic savants have a higher intelligence than what the IQ test can measure, but due to language and social differences they are not able to convey this intelligence in the way that the IQ test measures such things. This is part of the flaws in the test. It was careless of me to cite it as evidence of a lack of intelligence and I hereby retract that statement. Someone with an IQ of 75 might very well be intelligent.
 
It's all one big national blow job.

I'm voting for Dennis Kucinich and all y'all can kiss my Irish-American ass.
 
Mathematician said:
Skills in mathematics typically go hand in hand with a pretty good IQ.

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Occupations.aspx
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Why do you think that counts as evidence about math being an indicator of IQ?

Just look at carpenters. There is way, way more math involved in carpentry than sales managing, but the data they are showing indicate a lower range of IQ's for carpenters than sales managers. They actually show carpenters to have the lowest average IQs of all the trades, but they do more math than most trades.

And more importantly, there was only one group where the 50th percentile of that group fell more than on standard deviation above the mean for IQ. Statistically speaking, we're not talking about the difference between intelligent and unintelligent, we're talking about the difference between the lower end of average and the upper end of average average.

And medical doctor was the only field that didn't seem to have sub-100 IQ scores associated with it. Further supporting my claim that being good at math =/= intelligent.

Also I'm sure you understand that correlation =/= causation. You fail to take note of any possible confounds. For example, the jobs aren't really ordered according to math skills nearly as much as they are ordered by the amount of physical labor associated with them. The more physical the job is, the lower the average IQ for the job. Is this because people with low IQ's can't get the less physical jobs? Of course not, there's tons of evidence right there showing that people in those jobs can have low IQs as well.

Could it be that people with lower IQ's tend to prefer physical jobs while people with high IQ's prefer less physical jobs? Actually, that's very possible.

I'd say that we should really control for such variables before we make claims like skills in mathematics go "hand in hand" with a pretty good IQ. I'd say that someone with a high IQ is more likely to be good at math than a person with a low IQ, but that's nowhere near a guarantee.


Let's get back to the debate now that started this. However you want to filter (education, IQ test, etc.), those voting on something should have a sufficient understanding of it by some standard.
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Democracy is designed to be decided by the people and , unfortunately, the people are generally stupid, or at best, average.
 
Tucker Case said:
Why do you think that counts as evidence about math being an indicator of IQ?

Just look at carpenters. There is way, way more math involved in carpentry than sales managing, but the data they are showing indicate a lower range of IQ's for carpenters than sales managers. They actually show carpenters to have the lowest average IQs of all the trades, but they do more math than most trades.

And more importantly, there was only one group where the 50th percentile of that group fell more than on standard deviation above the mean for IQ. Statistically speaking, we're not talking about the difference between intelligent and unintelligent, we're talking about the difference between the lower end of average and the upper end of average average.

And medical doctor was the only field that didn't seem to have sub-100 IQ scores associated with it. Further supporting my claim that being good at math =/= intelligent.

Also I'm sure you understand that correlation =/= causation. You fail to take note of any possible confounds. For example, the jobs aren't really ordered according to math skills nearly as much as they are ordered by the amount of physical labor associated with them. The more physical the job is, the lower the average IQ for the job. Is this because people with low IQ's can't get the less physical jobs? Of course not, there's tons of evidence right there showing that people in those jobs can have low IQs as well.

Could it be that people with lower IQ's tend to prefer physical jobs while people with high IQ's prefer less physical jobs? Actually, that's very possible.

I'd say that we should really control for such variables before we make claims like skills in mathematics go "hand in hand" with a pretty good IQ. I'd say that someone with a high IQ is more likely to be good at math than a person with a low IQ, but that's nowhere near a guarantee.


Democracy is designed to be decided by the people and , unfortunately, the people are generally stupid, or at best, average.
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Now you're just making me laugh, because you have no clue what you're talking about. For example, the math used by a carpenter is kiddy math. Did you notice the word "math" anywhere on the list? (Hint: near the top)
 
Mathematician said:
Now you're just making me laugh, because you have no clue what you're talking about. For example, the math used by a carpenter is kiddy math. Did you notice the word "math" anywhere on the list? (Hint: near the top)
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Wow. Another fine example of over inflated ego.

Please tell us what math you do, and what you do with it for a career.
 
Tucker Case said:
They might be a damned sight smarter than the guy with the MD, but they don't have any training.
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I've taught pre-med students, I wouldn't really hold my breath on they being smarter.
 
Arbo said:
Wow. Another fine example of over inflated ego.

Please tell us what math you do, and what you do with it for a career.
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oh god, you're full of yourself.
 
Ikari said:
oh god, you're full of yourself.
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Not even close.

But of course your comment makes no sense in context to what you responded to.
 
Arbo said:
Not even close.

But of course your comment makes no sense in context to what you responded to.
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Of course it does. Here sits Arbo with his high horse perched up on his soap box, condemning everyone else. "Oh you're just snooty", as if god himself gave you the authority and wisdom to decry your fellow man. "You don't do anything for society", "you don't know anything" "you're pretentious". Sitting there pointing your fingers at everyone because why? They're educated? Get over yourself. Your type of anti-intellectualism is one of the big problems facing our Republic today.

The more you talk the more I start to think that maybe we really should restrict voting to just the intellectual elite. hahah
 
Ikari said:
I've taught pre-med students, I wouldn't really hold my breath on they being smarter.
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And yet they are the peopel who move on to become MDs. Do they become smarter as a result of their continued education, or are they just as dumb, only less ignroant?
 
Mathematician said:
Now you're just making me laugh, because you have no clue what you're talking about. For example, the math used by a carpenter is kiddy math.
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Instead of laughing, maybe you should take note that I was making a comparison of carpentry to other jobs on the list (the majority of which have no math involved). Did you know reading comprehension skills are also correlated with IQ scores? So should we assume that your sub-par ability to note the presence of a comparison, which is likely to be a product of sub-par reading comprehension skills, is a sign of a lack of intelligence on your part?

Now, I understand the desire to pretend to be intellectually superior simply due to the fact that one might have a singular talent that is above average or have gotten an education. It's a great way to ignore any intellectual shortcomings one may have in other areas outside of their expertise. Few people are willing to admit that they aren't special, especially people who think their education magically makes them special.

Did you notice the word "math" anywhere on the list? (Hint: near the top)
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Sure I did. But if you were really being smart about it, you'd have noticed that the median IQ for that group is still within the average IQ range. the majority of people in the field fail to get out of the "high average" range of intelligence. Surely a mathematician would be able to figure out what the overlap means. I mean, a full 50% of carpenters have IQs within the exact same range as 50% of the people in that physical science group (where math was found). It's right there in the numbers and ranges. One group as a whole was toward the bottom, the other was toward teh top. Clearly there are some carpenters who have higher IQs than some people in the physical.

Hell, almost 25% of people in that physical science group had IQ's under 100. How would that be possible if math skill equaled intelligence?
 
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disneydude said:
Not when compared to the total number of votes and when taken in comparison to the overall percentages of the election outcome. Nah.....just shows your racist spouting off is baseless.
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As soon as you start yakking "racist" nobody listens. I think most honest people know that's not debating.

Stating a fact that 96% of blacks voted for Obama suggests his race had something to do with it. You may not like this fact, but it is what it is.

Hollaring racist is like yelling fire in a crowded theatre. It should be considered a hate crime.
 
Stating a fact that 96% of blacks voted for Obama suggests his race had something to do with it. You may not like this fact, but it is what it is.
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Only if you ignore the fact that Democrats generally recieve 80ish % of the black vote every election.

Maybe the issue is the vast majority of blacks don't trust the Republican party?
 
Ikari said:
Of course it does.
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Man, you like to make **** up don't you? As I have said before, it is ***hats like you that are the problem. Always 'downgrading' those that do not meet your self absorbed 'high standards'.
 
iliveonramen said:
NP....a Democratic controlled Congress and a Democratic President signed it into law. It was based on region not party. Southern Republicans voted against the Civil Rights act as well.
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So the Dems were racist. My, my!!!82% of Republicans vs 64% Democrats voted for the Civil Rights Act. Furthermore, Richard Nixon was the President who put real teeth in affirmative action.
 
Tucker Case said:
And yet they are the peopel who move on to become MDs. Do they become smarter as a result of their continued education, or are they just as dumb, only less ignroant?
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Or both, which is the likely asnwer. They certainly become less ignorant, that is pretty much what education does.
 
Marilyn Monroe said:
So the Dems were racist. My, my!!!82% of Republicans vs 64% Democrats voted for the Civil Rights Act. Furthermore, Richard Nixon was the President who put real teeth in affirmative action.
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Thats pretty much all true...except...it was during the Jurassic Age were now in 2012 the Age of the Teaparty
 
Tucker Case said:
And yet they are the peopel who move on to become MDs. Do they become smarter as a result of their continued education, or are they just as dumb, only less ignroant?
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No...not those kids. There are certainly VERY bright students who do go on to practice and to teach. Some are unteachable. Education produces experience and knowledge, but one needs to have the facilities to accommodate those first.
 
Redress said:
Or both, which is the likely asnwer. They certainly become less ignorant, that is pretty much what education does.
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I agree that education makes people less ignorant. That's a far cry from becoming more intelligent, though.
 
Ikari said:
No...not those kids. There are certainly VERY bright students who do go on to practice and to teach. Some are unteachable. Education produces experience and knowledge, but one needs to have the facilities to accommodate those first.
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I totally agree.
 
Tucker Case said:
I agree that education makes people less ignorant. That's a far cry from becoming more intelligent, though.
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This is true. However, it is a process which can lead to improving intelligence. It has more likelihood than many things people that age could do.
 
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