Is he lying?

Turin · Mar 27, 2012

Uhhh I think the issue under the Stand Your Ground Law is that both Zimmerman reports to the dispatcher Traebon is running away from him and the gf reports during her call that Traebon tells her he is walking away fast from Zimmerman.

The call began at 7:12 and he is dead at 7:17 and both Zimmerman reports Traebon walks away and the gf reports Traebon tells her he walks away.

The Stand your Ground Law is more likely to support Traebon.

There is no reported medical evidence of George's injuries by the skinny kid he pursued beyond self description.

Well this is an example of law abiding citizens speaking out in outrage and how George will now get something beyond an hour or two "sniff test" of his version and there will be an investigation and a trial and hopefully the outcome will be the correct one and justice will be served.

Although ... I feel for the parents of the skinny kid running from George with skittles in his pocket who is now dead.

Excon · Mar 27, 2012

Dion said:
yet I suspect that he was playing cop and saw himself as important.

Hyperbole.

Dion said:
He had placed so many calls to police over the past year and had no reason to follow or approach the kid.

So many calls?

Do you know what his average number of his calls were?

Dion said:
Zimmerman was the probably the biggest threat to the neighborhood safety and peace.

From the reports - he kept it safe and was appreciated.

Dion said:
I would eventually turn and confront Zimmerman if he followed me ... I am female and weight 108 lbs.

Would you then attack him?

Dion said:
Zimmerman needs to be in jail and have a trial.

No. He doesn't.

Dion said:
The kid was walking in the public street and tapes documented he had just been to the store and purchased candy.

And acting suspiciously enough for Zimmerman to call in a suspicious person. An unknown person in the neighborhood looking at homes is conduct that can very well be interpreted as casing.

Is a gated community private or public?

Dion said:
He is not trained in law enforcement and had no reason whatsoever to brandish a lethal weapon at that kid.

Brandish?
Where are you getting this information from?

Dion said:
Zimmerman could have defended himself easily with a kid weighing almost half of his own mass and Zimmerman was the one stalking

Trayvon was an athlete of 160lbs at 6'0". Zimmerman was a pudgy 5'9" who was out of breath after a few seconds of running.

Dion said:
My kid wears a hooded sweatshirt in spring weather ... if stalked by a guy that looked like Zimmerman he would be scared.

Great. This incident has nothing to do with Trayvon wearing a hoodie.

Dion said:
Zimmerman deserves a fair trial ... yet the police are suspect in my opinion to simply have accepted Zimmerman's far out story.

What exactly do you think is far out about it?

Dion said:
There needs to be a trial yet I suspect Zimmerman was not racist ... just a low self esteem idiot playing tough guy. The police ...? I do wonder if some racism was involved ... and the whole story of Zimmerman ... stinks.

Hyperbole. Zimmerman's action do not rise to the level of criminality. There should be no trial.

Dion said:
The media ... has reported new details and although I agree with media reporting from corporate networks is trash ... the parents had to get the media's attention in order to even have Zimmerman questioned.

The whole thing was blown out of proportion to what occurred. It had local press. There was no need for any more.

Dion said:
The police failed ... as they had no evidence and arrived to find the kid dead with no weapon and weighing almost half of Zimmerman's weight and knew that Zimmerman had followed the kid by his own admission to the 911 operator.

And?
The evidence says that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman.

Dion said:
Another thought ... I wondered if Zimmerman had serious mental health issues.

Why are you engaging in speculation?
There is no indication that he has.

Dion said:
Whatever happened ... no investigation? Get real ... if that were my kid I would have called every network I detest (Fox, MSNBC etc) and hired a private firm to investigate.

Where do you get this idea that there was no investigation?
There was an investigation and it was determined that there wasn't enough evidence to obtain a conviction.
No evidence contradicted Zimmerman's statement.

Excon · Mar 27, 2012

Dion said:
Except ... there would be no investigation without the public outcry.

I do know ... that Zimmerman followed an unarmed skinny kid on a public street and shot him dead and did not call an ambulance.

Where are yo getting your information from?

There was an investigation.
It was the prosecution who determined there was not enough evidence to bring Zimmerman to trial.

The police were on the scene moments after it happened and took Zimmerman into custody.
The officer heard the shot as he pulled up.
The officer is the one who noticed Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of his head and nose.
The officer also overheard Zimmerman say he didn't know why no one responded to his calls for help.

An eye-witness who was actually on the scene, saw Trayvon on top, and that it was Zimmerman calling for help.

Turin · Mar 27, 2012

wow Xcon ... You are about the first poster who believes there should be no trial!

Author of "stand your ground" law: George Zimmerman should probably be arrested for killing Trayvon Martin - Crimesider - CBS News

It is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's advice not to follow Martin that former Sen. Peaden says disqualifies him from claiming self-defense under the law.

"The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Miami Herald. "When he said 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."

Rep. Dennis Baxley, Peaden's co-sponsor in the Florida House, agrees with his former colleague, telling the newspaper that the law does not license neighborhood watch or others who feel "like they have the authority to pursue and confront people. That is aggravating an incident right there

.

Thanks for link UM.

joko104 · Mar 27, 2012

Dion said:
Is Zimmerman lying ... by all accounts imho it seems he is. Certainly he should have a fair trial and it is likely forensic evidence will help solve the case.

The closest witnesses described what they saw immediately after hearing gun shots.

Inside Dateline - Witnesses describe Trayvon Martin's final moments; Parents say 'He was headed on the right path'

There is nothing in that report that contradicts anything Zimmerman reportedly told police.

Excon · Mar 27, 2012

Dion said:
wow Xcon ... You are about the first poster who believes there should be no trial!

Author of "stand your ground" law: George Zimmerman should probably be arrested for killing Trayvon Martin - Crimesider - CBS News

.

Thanks for link UM.

Wow?
You realize the author's opinion does not matter right?
You also realize that he didn't have all the information to even form an accurate opinion of what happened - right?
The law as written and as applied is what matters.
And - don't you realize all you did was site political grand standing?

Oh yeah? Did you not hear that this is a case of simple Self Defense and not a SYG?

Well wow is right. Why do you not have the information you are reciting correct?

joko104 · Mar 27, 2012

Excon said:
Where are yo getting your information from?

There was an investigation.
It was the prosecution who determined there was not enough evidence to bring Zimmerman to trial.

The police were on the scene moments after it happened and took Zimmerman into custody.
The officer heard the shot as he pulled up.
The officer is the one who noticed Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of his head and nose.
The officer also overheard Zimmerman say he didn't know why no one responded to his calls for help.

An eye-witness who was actually on the scene, saw Trayvon on top, and that it was Zimmerman calling fro help.

Two eye witnesses, not one. A 13 year old African-American teen out with his dog and a person only identified as "John." Both said Martin was over Zimmerman and described it as "fighting." They both heard someone shouting for help and "John" said this was Zimmerman. Also 2 women heard someone yelling for help and it was recorded in one of their 911 call. Martin's father also said the person yelling for help was not his son.

I don't think "stand your ground" has any relevancy. Zimmerman was on the ground with Martin pounding his head into the concrete according to Zimmerman. The injury to Zimmerman would seem to confirm this.

Turin · Mar 27, 2012

Excon said:
From the reports - he kept it safe and was appreciated.

Sounds like Zimmerman was breaking the rules according to the Watch Association.

Wendy Dorival is Sanford's volunteer coordinator for the Police Department. She helped train Zimmerman. She stated that those involved in neighborhood-watch programs are supposed to be "the eyes and ears" for the police, "not a vigilante." Specifically, she said, members "are not supposed to confront anyone. We get paid to get into harm's way. You don't do that. You just call them from the safety of your home or your vehicle." She added that carrying and using a gun on patrol violates protocols.

Furthermore, the National Sheriffs' Association, which sponsors the neighborhood-watch program nationwide, is 100% clear in its manual on this point as well: "Patrol members do not carry weapons," have no police power, and should "not attempt to apprehend a person committing a crime or to investigate a suspicious activity." Lastly, not following the guidelines can result in serious consequences: "Each member is liable as an individual for civil and criminal charges should he exceed his authority

."

Keep in mind ... the kid was simply walking to a his father's fiance condo in that neighborhood in day light unarmed to watch a game after buying skittles and chatting up his gf on a cell phone. Both Zimmerman and the gf report Trevon as walking away ...!

Casing the neighborhood? ... that was only in Georges mind as he pursued the unarmed kid despite training.

fyrenza · Mar 27, 2012

Unless you're willing to call the police force which investigated this disturbance a bunch of Keystone Cops?
(and I can assure you, they weren't.)

THEIR decision regarding prosecution of a supposed offense STANDS.

I'm real sorry to any folks outside of the U.S.,

but HERE, a person is considered INNOCENT until ...

well, at LEAST until some sort of CHARGES,
by some sort of VALID AUTHORITY,
i.e. a police force,

are actually LEVIED against the person.

How dare y'all be jumping to conclusions regarding something you really know nothing about???

Amazing, in the most horrible sort of way, imho.

Hatuey · Mar 27, 2012

fyrenza said:
Unless you're willing to call the police force which investigated this disturbance a bunch of Keystone Cops?
(and I can assure you, they weren't.)

THEIR decision regarding prosecution of a supposed offense STANDS.

I'm real sorry to any folks outside of the U.S.,

but HERE, a person is considered INNOCENT until ...

well, at LEAST until some sort of CHARGES,
by some sort of VALID AUTHORITY,
i.e. a police force,

are actually LEVIED against the person.

How dare y'all be jumping to conclusions regarding something you really know nothing about???

Amazing, in the most horrible sort of way, imho.

It's too bad Zimmerman didn't afford Trayvon Martin those simply luxuries that his defenders are now begging us to afford him.

Excon · Mar 27, 2012

Dion said:
wow Xcon ... You are about the first poster who believes there should be no trial!

Yay!
I know there are others.
And I understand others have an opinion, just like I do.

What I find troubling is those opinions that have been formed by people that lack even a rudimentary knowledge of the actual available evidence.
I am troubled that people even do that.

Should not people at least try and seek out all available info before forming an opinion?

fyrenza · Mar 27, 2012

What planet are you FROM???

The police,

THE AUTHORITY over the "case,"

had no gripe with Zimmerman's actions.

THEY decided that there were No Charges that could be brought against the man,

and despite what Jeb Bush is mealy-mouthing,

Florida is a Stand Your Ground state,

for ANYONE carrying a firearm.

Turin · Mar 27, 2012

Couple that with Zimmerman pursuing an unarmed teen recorded on 911 dispatcher despite being told to stop ... and a few minutes later the unarmed teen is dead with George standing on the body and not calling an ambulance.

He needs to be arrested in the murder and and the truth discovered either way and justice served.

Excon · Mar 27, 2012

Dion said:
Sounds like Zimmerman was breaking the rules according to the Watch Association.

He was a member of his NW.

It was an unregistered program. As many are.

The rules are only guideline and he is not required to follow them by any law.
All that matters is whether his actions were legal or not.

Dion said:
Keep in mind ... the kid was simply walking to a his father's fiance condo in that neighborhood in day light unarmed to watch a game after buying skittles and chatting up his gf on a cell phone. Both Zimmerman and the gf report Trevon as walking away ...!.

Matter's not in regards to the legality of Zimmerman's actions.

Dion said:
Casing the neighborhood? ... that was only in Georges mind as he pursued the unarmed kid despite training.

Ding ding ding.
That is right. In Zimmerman's mind. Which is what matters.
He called it in and the police believed it to be enough to dispatch an officer.

Utility Man · Mar 27, 2012

joko104 said:
....Zimmerman was on the ground with Martin pounding his head into the concrete according to Zimmerman. The injury to Zimmerman would seem to confirm this.

Sort of what one might expect when catching up to a person they had been chasing for seemingly no reason?

Try it sometime.

Excon · Mar 27, 2012

Dion said:
Couple that with Zimmerman pursuing an unarmed teen recorded on 911 dispatcher despite being told to stop ... and a few minutes later the unarmed teen is dead with George standing on the body and not calling an ambulance.

He needs to be arrested in the murder and and the truth discovered either way and justice served.

I guess you didn't read what came before.
Zimmerman was not told anything. "We don't need you to that." is not being 'told' anything. It is not an instruction or an order. It was a suggestion that he had no obligation to follow. The Police Chief has even stated that is was only a suggestion and that he was under no obligation to follow.

Following anybody for the purposes of keeping them under observation until police arrive is not wrong.
It is actually appropriate.

He does not need to be arrested.
An investigation was conducted. There was no evidence that contradicted his statement, but evidence that was consistent with and corroborated it.

Meathead · Mar 27, 2012

Nobody really knows jack here. The left and much of black America have him pegged as a racist murderer of an unarmed and innocent black child and the right suggests that it was self-defense, neither having a lick of proof. OK, so we are collectively biased and ignorant, nothing new there. One would hope that the president should hold himself to a different standard. Alas, he seems as ignorant a bias as the rest of us.

Excon · Mar 27, 2012

Meathead said:
Nobody really knows jack here.

Not really.
We have what has been released to us.
The 911 calls
Quotes from interviews.
The original police report.

What the Chief told us about Zimmerman's statement.
The Chief himself said that no evidence contradicted Zimmerman's statement. That is in itself hard to over come.

fyrenza · Mar 27, 2012

MORE so, MeatHead.

Watch for the race riots that he, and these dumbasses that keep stirring this pot, ARE going to cause.

And you know what?
These ... what do libtards even call them, nowadays? ... African Americans* ok? ...

WHAT THE FLUKE HAPPENS to THEM?!?

Have none of y'all thought this through to it's logical conclusion?

<sigh>

Peter Ilyich · Mar 27, 2012

Dion said:
Is Zimmerman lying ... by all accounts imho it seems he is.

Zimmerman's conversation with the 911 dispatcher directly before the altercation support his claim that he had lost sight of Martin, Martin's girlfriend confirms that it was Martin who confronted Zimmerman about being followed, eye witnesses support his claim that he was on the ground, injuries treated by EMS officials are consistent with both eye witnesses and Zimmerman's version of the events, and observations by the police of blood and grass stains on Zimmerman's clothing corroborate his statements.

Cutcher and Lamilla only saw after the gun shot. It seems incredibly reasonable to assume Zimmerman was initially unaware of how injured Martin was but leapt to his feet to subdue Martin, which is completely consistent with the women's claim of him pressing his hands to his back, then let up as he realized Martin was dead, which again is consistent with their claims.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I just don't see how you could come to the conclusion that he must be lying when his version of the events is supported by virtually all the facts.

ric27 · Mar 27, 2012

Dion said:
He needs to be arrested in the murder and and the truth discovered either way and justice served.

Why? Theres no evidence that Zimmerman committed a crime

Instead of looking at the facts of the shooting, you are looking at the overall "emotion" of the shootings

Do not approach this delicate subject based on feelings and emotions. Base it on facts and evidence

Meathead · Mar 27, 2012

The point here is that we have taken it upon ourselves to be judge and jury with a threadbare amount of information which could neither absolve nor convict anyone in any court of law. Discussing the issue of the "Stand Your Ground" law is probably fair enough, but to judge one's guilt or innocence even as toothlessly as on this forum is grounded in bias and ignorance alone, as evidenced by the usual suspects on either side lining up on the issue in typical knee-jerk fashion.

fyrenza · Mar 27, 2012

Peter Ilyich said:
Zimmerman's conversation with the 911 dispatcher directly before the altercation support his claim that he had lost sight of Martin, Martin's girlfriend confirms that it was Martin who confronted Zimmerman about being followed, eye witnesses support his claim that he was on the ground, injuries treated by EMS officials are consistent with both eye witnesses and Zimmerman's version of the events, and observations by the police of blood and grass stains on Zimmerman's clothing corroborate his statements.

Cutcher and Lamilla only saw after the gun shot. It seems incredibly reasonable to assume Zimmerman was initially unaware of how injured Martin was but leapt to his feet to subdue Martin, which is completely consistent with the women's claim of him pressing his hands to his back, then let up as he realized Martin was dead, which again is consistent with their claims.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I just don't see how you could come to the conclusion that he must be lying when his version of the events is supported by virtually all the facts.

I fluking LURVE you!!!

fyrenza · Mar 27, 2012

Meathead said:
The point here is that we have taken it upon ourselves to be judge and jury with a threadbare amount of information which could neither absolve nor convict anyone in any court of law. Discussing the issue of the "Stand Your Ground" law is probably fair enough, but to judge one's guilt or innocence even as toothlessly as on this forum is grounded in bias and ignorance alone, as evidenced by the usual suspects on either side lining up on the issue in typical knee-jerk fashion.

And the horribly sad part of it that our NEWS services,

North,
East,
West and
South

have failed, miserably, in giving us accurate and TRUE information regarding any part of this.

Excon · Mar 27, 2012

Meathead said:
The point here is that we have taken it upon ourselves to be judge and jury with a threadbare amount of information

Yes that is what was happening.
They were and still are doing, forming an opinion without what is the known evidence.

But this is a debate forum so if we want to debate something we have to go with what is available.
To ignore what is available in favor of an opinion is ridiculous. Especially when that opinion is not in accord with the known evidence.

In this instance, the evidence and information we have, as it is, is enough to say that he acted in self defense.
Until that point that other evidence contradicts it.
At that point, yeah, introduce it and add it to the debate.

But as it stands we have enough information.

We also have enough to form an opinion, as to the correctness of the first investigation.

And this isn't a SYG issue.

Is he lying?

Your instinct ... is Zimmerman lying about what took place?

It seems Zimmerman is lying to cover his crime

Probably

No clue

No

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