Punishment or solution?

GreenvilleGrows said:

I'm less likely to want to punish the guy that stole $2.5 million of some corporation's money (unless some of it was mine) than I am the guy who broke into a house to steal a tv. Call it what you want, that's just me; and I think most people feel the same. If you can maneuver and blend within society, society is more likely to accept you. That's a basic trait of society.

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I think those "social chameleons" you describe are more dangerous than a common thief and they deserve the harshest punishment. It's almost always your money because the corporation isn't going to take it on the chin. I guarantee they will make up that money some way or other. So, unless it's Lamborghini or a yacht manufacturer that got ripped off, you, I, and everybody else will make up any losses from the theft.


As a side note: The thief who steals a TV will make up for it by being subject to other laws as well as theft - for example, B&E and trespassing.

haymarket said:

By all means, I am open to reading about such suggestions. Please do present them.

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You might be open to reading about them. But you are certainly not open to wanting them put into effect.

GreenvilleGrows said:

Punishment is a solution. I'd be happy to say there are other potential solutions, too. The most basic solutions begin early in the development of a child. If they grow up with parents who don't know how to live in a "civilized" society, then it's hard for them to learn how to be "civilized". In this case, I'm defining civilized as being in accordance with behavior that society doesn't want to punish.

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By itself punishment might be a solution...but is it the correct solution?

When we punish those that commit crimes why not take that opportunity to actually try and reform them? Counsuling would prolly help for those that were just taught wrong by their parents. Counsuling AND medical drugs might help others. There might be other ways in which to help people also. Advancement in technology may bring forth other things that may help.

I know that while I was in jail not once did a counsulor come to see me. No psych evaluation was performed. Nothing. I was convicted, sent to jail where I served part of my sentence, got out saw my PO once a month and paid my fines/restitution. That was it. Now I was luckier than most, I had a family that loved me and wanted to help me after I got out and was able to help me which helped me change into the person that I am now. Most people don't. Has it been easy? Hell no. I'm not the same person that I was when I was 18 and yet soceity still treats me as such. Why do they do this? I've come to the conclusion that its because society knows that we have no system in place for reforming criminals so they can only assume that the person is still bad. So in essence society keeps the punishment going, mainly out of fear.

GreenvilleGrows said:

I'm less likely to want to punish the guy that stole $2.5 million of some corporation's money (unless some of it was mine) than I am the guy who broke into a house to steal a tv. Call it what you want, that's just me; and I think most people feel the same. If you can maneuver and blend within society, society is more likely to accept you. That's a basic trait of society.

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This really makes no sense to me. You're willing to punish a person harder for stealing a $200-$1,000 tv than a person that steals millions in money?

GreenvilleGrows said:

So, if you're looking for a "solution" in addition to punishment, I suggest first admitting that the welfare state has failed. 2nd, eliminate support of the "anti-social" immediately. And, 3rd, wait about 15-30 years for the current anti-social generation to age. During that time, use harsh punishment and long jail terms for offenses demonstrating a lack of knowledge about what society expects.

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How does the "welfare state" promote criminal acts?

What do you mean by "eliminate support of the anti-social"? And why is "anti-social" phrase in quotation marks?

Mensch said:

My statement is accurate if you consider world events

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so is this one: both Nazi Germany and the USSR had nationalized health care. Liberals who want us to nationalize healthcare want us to emulate Nazi Germany.

This is an accurate statement that is nonetheless a de facto falsehood, because you are attempting to confuse horrific portions of a regime which we do not emulate with standard portions of a regime which plenty of nations share. It is not that dictatorships may have a death penalty that is horrific, it is that they impose it arbitrarily on innocents with or without rule of law that is horrific.

Nearly all (if not all) developed countries have eliminated the death penalty. The US, along with a handful of third world countries (I admit it's growing) use lethal injection as their primary means of execution.

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:shrug: lethal injection is one route. Given that we have the twin goals of "death penalty as a deterrent" and "no cruel or unusual punishment", I don't happen to think it is optimal, but it's up to the States.

Granted, I realize you're not trying to emulate these countries, only our own 18th century traditions, you have to admit they're a lot alike.

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not really - (again) you are here mistaking form for function. There is a world of difference between hanging a child-murderer after he receives a fair trial and hanging a potential political rival with no trial before also exiling or killing his family.

I wasn't talking specifically about unconsciousness when I referenced 10-20 minutes. And why would 30 seconds of severe pain and agony be appropriate under the 8th Amendment?

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I wouldn't know about the rope portion of it (I imagine it would feel like a very bad rug burn), but I've been choked out a a number of times from having the blood vessels in my neck constricted during groundfighting training, and the discomfort is not particularly tortuous.

It is very unusual in the Western world today. Tradition does not legitimize an act.

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Depends on the assault on it. If, for example, you were to attack hanging as an unConstitutional form of punishment under the "cruel and unusual" clause, then our tradition and history of it would indeed be pertinent.

cpwill said:

neither is necessary and both would probably violate the Constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment. hanging is well within our tradition, though firing squad would work just as well.

:shrug: I wouldn't have any moral qualms with it. Much easier than the shades-of-grey decisions we faced in Iraq. It probably wouldn't pay well enough to attract me, though.

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The satisfaction wouldn't be enough?

I wouldn't really see myself as having particularly great job satisfaction as an executioner. It's an unfortunate business, all around.

Mensch said:

Immediate execution? Really? What's wrong with a little bit of the ultra-violence before we extinguish the life?

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It's a waste of time, energy, and money. So far as I'm concerned at the beginning of a Felony trial you ask the defendant what his preference is for a last meal, and you have it ready the moment his one (and only) appeal is heard. He gets the meal then and four hours later he's dead. Nice, quick, easy, and efficient.

earthworm said:

Nearly exactly as I felt and believed....when I was a child...even a child of 40 years. Now, I think I am an adult and I care not to be inhumane..in any way..... Think about this for 40 years !

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I'll be 38 in July earthworm. If it took you that long to become an adult, then I'm not sure why I would take your advice. I was mature enough to prefer the company and mentality of an adult by the time I was a teenager. I got to see inhumanity on a limited scale early enough in my life that I learned it is the true nature of humanity, not the exception.

haymarket said:

Have you ever been in a maximum or even a heavy security prison? From you remarks about a spa it would seem not.

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Nope. I don't need to be. Everything I need to know can be seen on the news and read in the newspapers, magazines, and books. The fact that these animals are given any rights, privileges, or comforts after proving they cannot live within the boundaries that society has set makes it a spa in my mind. As I mentioned earlier, I'm all for locking these ****ers away 24/7/365. No books. No tv. No radio. NOTHING except time to think about what they did until they go insane and are then put down like the rabid dogs they are.

Baralis said:

I believe you would have a different outlook on prison if you spent any time there, it is anything but a spa (granted some federal white crime prisons are a bit soft but a majority do not fit this description). While they may have TV's, radios, small luxury items, these are used as a tool to encourage good behavior. If you strip everything away from prisoners what motivation do they have to behave? after all they are already in prison. It also works as a means to occupy them, an occupied prisoner is less likely to cause problems then a bored idol prisoner. Many will lash out and misbehave simply to entertain themselves because they have no other means to pass the time.

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Prison should not be a matter of "encouraging" people to behave. The guards with the tasers, billy clubs, and water cannons should be more than sufficient to do that. Then again, if these animals are properly locked away in their cells, good behavior doesn't become an issue, does it?

Baralis said:

Prison is much more then simply being locked away and removed from society, you are also removed from your family, job, home, friends, ability to prosper or improve ones financial being and this can be a very difficult thing to cope with. Many of us are wired to want to achieve and better our situations. It is knowing you are helpless to do ANYTHING about anything that can be a real punishment. This also does not take into consideration the living in fear of your life day in and day out. Prison is a nasty place were prisoners constantly pray on one another. You live your live wondering if today is the day you are going to be stabbed, raped, or killed for no reason at all. It is VERY VERY stressful.

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These people CHOSE to undertake the action that landed them their. THEY are the ones who chose to separate themselves from family, friends, job, and society at large, not the other way around. You will not find me having the least bit of compassion or sympathy for people who have chosen to do these things. There should be no fear for their lives if they're kept in their cells 24/7.

Oh, and one other thing. I do have a small amount of an idea. My youngest uncle is currently serving time in a medium security prison in New Jersey for third degree sexual assault. I no longer have any contact with him at all. He's tried to contact me a couple times (via letter) and I burned them without even opening them. He chose to separate himself from society, and I no longer want anything to do with him because of it.

Baralis said:

Locking away persons in solitary for long lenths of time have been proven to cause a high amount of mental health issues right up to full blown insanity. Humans are wired to be social animals and are not meant to be solidarity confined. Many herd animals such as sheep or cattle for example will suffer (less healthy, lack of weight, poor immune function, ect.) if left in solitude and some have been known to outright die. What purpose would it server to mentally mess prisoners up if we ever hope to release them?

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Where have I ever suggested that I wanted to release them. I'm all for two sentences in our Legal System.... Life without the possibility of Parole and Execution. Period. No third option. If/when they go nuts we put them down like the rabid dogs they are.

Baralis said:

If you think prison is so easy peasy and cushy why dont you take a couple gallons of water and a few sadwiches and lock yourself into a closet with no contact for 48 hours, it should be simple right. My bet is you wouldn't consider such a thing so imagine living largely that way for 20 years. And living in a closet would be easier in many ways over living in a prison. Imagine back to your life 20 years ago and imagine that everything you have done and experienced, times you have enjoyed, time spent with family all gone poof! Its no so easy...

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You might actually be surprised at how well I would likely come through such an ordeal. It's not all that much different than how I spent the majority of my childhood. I would generally have a book with me, and the room was about 8'x10', but that's pretty close to how I would spend most weekends in my youth.

Kal'Stang said:

Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?

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We already have way too many stupid laws that we're convicting people of. Why should we increase punishments for those?

Punishment is not as important as implementing policies that attack causes of crime. Solutions focus on cause whereas punishment directly relates to symptoms. That is not to say that punishment has no place, but it should be secondary in focus.

Imprisonment is a means of confining, of separating a dangerous person from potential victims. Punishment/imprisonment in and of itself is not a solution. It is ideally a tool to allow for rehabilitation. However, there are of exceptions and some people are too dangerous and cannot be rehabilitated.

But, yes, I believe the primary goal of policy should be to deal with the causes and not the symptoms of societal ills.

Tigger said:

PUNISHMENT. The problem is that we no longer know what PUNISHMENT truly is in this society. Our prisons look more like spas than actual prisons. We fail to incarcerate a large percentage of the criminals, choosing instead to fine them or use some other form of non-punishment. We aren't even able to convict an acceptable rate of the criminals in our society. When we actually return to PUNISHMENT, things will turn around, but not until then.

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I think that when we can put drugs in a different category; away from violent crime, then our prison system will much less congested and we'll be able to pay more attention to how we either punish or rehabilitate the criminal element.

And before you ask: drugs are no different than alcholism and people need to be treated as such.

jet57 said:

I think that when we can put drugs in a different category; away from violent crime, then our prison system will much less congested and we'll be able to pay more attention to how we either punish or rehabilitate the criminal element.

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Yes, drugs should be in a category where possession doesn't even need a trial, just immediate execution.

jet57 said:

And before you ask: drugs are no different than alcholism and people need to be treated as such.

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Exactly. Consumable alcohol should be just as illegal as drugs are.

jet57 said:

I think that, like the best health care, preventative medicine is the best practice: most kids that drift into crime live in areas where they have nothing to do to occupy their time in any productive manner: that's fiscal repsonsibility for you; spend a penny to save a dime never occurs to those "responsible" people. Education in this country is not a priority, for the very profound reason that - it's not a priority; like invading Iraq . . .

. . .

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Unfortunately, the preventitive medicine in this case would be intact families who put their children higher on the list of priorities than some people put their dogs and cats, or getting picked up at the next bar they go to. There isn't a way to instill values in individuals, if they don't have the foundations for doing so. We have created the very culture that is producing the crime element, then we give it the seal of approval so that we don't have to acknowledge that we have screwed up. We collectively encourage single parenthood, demonize people who support "old-fashioned" values, and glorify dysfunction in movies, music, and on TV, then we can't figure out why things have changed, and we have an increasing number of societal members who can't function humanely.

Yeah I'd like to see more in the way of finding solutions. Admittedly I don't have a full-proof alternative, but I feel like the jail system is often born of laziness, indifference, and cruelty. Too often the punishment is way out of proportion to the crime committed. When I heard of 11 year olds being sent to prison for life with no parole (SCOTUS will hear on this) i think that's inhumane gulag crap and not at all in line with our growing understanding of the human condition, the risk factors involved in crime, and the kid's lack of developed brain and impulse control. If they don't have the rights of adults, how can they in all fairness share the responsibilities?

So many in jail never even get psych evaluation or any training to avoid future crime which is like, so much for the "correction/rehab" argument. They walk out with no money in their pockets and in some states even go in debt cause they have to pay for their own incarceration, and that isn't going to lead to more crime? The recidivism rate is ridiculously high if jails are supposedly doing their job. OP is right in my view that the motivation is fear-mongering politicians who prey on the public's collective ignorance that a mugger is right around the corner, when crime rate has been going down. Having said all that, i think the proportionately few who are genuinely dangerous should be segregated in some way from the few who are peace loving, so I'm not advocating the jails all be thrown open and letting serial killers walk the streets among us. I don't have all the answers but i agree that the current system by and large doesn't work.

wolv67 said:

I don't have all the answers but i agree that the current system by and large doesn't work.

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You're right it doesn't work. It doesn't work because we no longer have a societal value that expects people to follow the law or face an even harsher reality than the legal system.... exile and banishment from mainstream society. How many people do most of us know who laugh and joke about their multitude of speeding tickets, their DUI, etc.... That sort of laisez faire attitude about crime leads to the acceptance of larger crimes under the "he's just a kid" or "he comes from a bad background" excuses. We do everything except actually punish people for their misdeeds in this society.

Tigger said:

Yes, drugs should be in a category where possession doesn't even need a trial, just immediate execution.



Exactly. Consumable alcohol should be just as illegal as drugs are.

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And the socially responsible cutting edge (cough) right-wing mentality once again adds nothing of any value to a dicussion.

jeez

lizzie said:

Unfortunately, the preventitive medicine in this case would be intact families who put their children higher on the list of priorities than some people put their dogs and cats, or getting picked up at the next bar they go to. There isn't a way to instill values in individuals, if they don't have the foundations for doing so. We have created the very culture that is producing the crime element, then we give it the seal of approval so that we don't have to acknowledge that we have screwed up. We collectively encourage single parenthood, demonize people who support "old-fashioned" values, and glorify dysfunction in movies, music, and on TV, then we can't figure out why things have changed, and we have an increasing number of societal members who can't function humanely.

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Yes, I'm very much inclined to agree with you; although I don't think we demonize people who support old fashined values; as I am one of those people, we rather demonize the Christian right who demonize anyone who disagrees with their religious dogma about life in general.

I also think you're right about TV and the media. It would be nice if the mass media would be more honest as well and depict single parenthood in depressed neighborhoods for what they are; a generational trap that society at large does not pay enough attention to.

Tigger said:

Yes, drugs should be in a category where possession doesn't even need a trial, just immediate execution.

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OMG- please tell me you're joking.

jet57 said:

And the socially responsible cutting edge (cough) right-wing mentality once again adds nothing of any value to a dicussion.

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Social Responsibility says you don't put anything in your body that will keep it from being able to react quickly to life-changing threats or decisions on a moment's notice. Alcohol and Drugs both fall into that category.

lizzie said:

OMG- please tell me you're joking.

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I don't have a sense of humor. I had it surgically removed in my childhood to allow my ego to grow to its full size. There is no need for consumable alcohol in this society. Never has been and never will be. Nor is there a need for tobacco products.

I prefer both.