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Punishment or solution?

Punishment or solution?

  • Punishment.

    Votes: 5 20.8%

  • Solution.

    Votes: 19 79.2%
  • Total voters
    24
Kal'Stang said:
Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?
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There is a point where incarceration stops being instructive and becomes destructive.

There is an 85% recidivism rate for those who spend more than 5 years in custody (iirc). This doesn't have anything to do with the individuals offense but the loss of community ties and institutionalization.

I'm personally of the opinion that prison should be reserved for those too dangerous to allow to run around with the women and children.

Everybody else should get some kind of community-based punishment. Or nights in jail, days at work, that kind of thing.
 
Removable Mind said:
Are you implying that the law makers have become more draconian in their legislative actions related to crime?
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Being "tough on crime" is a great political position. It gets votes. The only way to prove you're tough on crime is to be "tougher" than those in the past, so legislation tends to get tougher. On the opposite, any legislation that is LESS "tough on crime" gets you labeled as "soft on crime" by your opponents.

Untold numbers of politicians during the height of the drug war rode to power promising to protect your xhildren from those evil drug dealers.

Politics, not sound policy.
 
lizzie said:
To the bolded- I have serious doubts about that. Excons often get branded, and spend their entire lives after release just trying to survive, because they have a criminal record dogging them. I support full forgiveness upon completion of serving time, and if they are released early, then do away with parole and consider their debt paid in full. No criminal record hanging around their necks.

As for the last part of your post (which I quoted), I agree fully.
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This is another key factor.

How much recidivism results from those who WOULD become law abiding citizens but COULDNT because their record prevents them from doing so? (Getting a good job, for instance)
 
Kal'Stang said:
Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?
Click to expand...

This coming from a guy who once argued texting while driving should warrant a jail sentence.
 
What if...? said:
This is another key factor.

How much recidivism results from those who WOULD become law abiding citizens but COULDNT because their record prevents them from doing so? (Getting a good job, for instance)
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Good question- I'm not sure if there are any reliable stats available which addresses this problem. I know it's popular concensus that prison should be solely for punishment, but so many of our prisoners lack basic living skills, that I would like to see more resources poured into rehabbing them. I'd also like to see more involvement from various religious entities, because alot of these folks need some type of purposeful existence. As much as some people loathe religion, it can be an excellent source of guidance for those who are aimless and feeling hopeless.
 
Let's not overlook the fact that prisons are a good Corporate business, especially if you can get people put in jail for basically innocent behavior, and keep a steady stream of inmates who are paid for daily by the Federal Gov't. 23 million in jail in the USA.. Per capita, more than any Nation on Earth. Nasty, no-good, reefer smokin', pill poppin', no goodniks gettin' free room and board. Yeh, they probably like that. Now, if you can get some laws passed making aspirin or even sex illegal, we can get occupancy rates that even Wackenhut can live with. Yessir, a boom business, as long as you've got laws to keep the occupancy level up. Makes cop type jobs, more and more Homeland Security types up the local noses. Wowser, the benefits never cease. If you rehabilitate, you lose occupancy rates, so let's not pretend that rehabilitation gets anything but lip service. They buildin' mo' jails and plannin' on keepin' em full. I believe the problems are systemic, not caused by criminal profiles, and there are definitely some criminals out there, but they mostly running banks and casting votes as your representatives in Congress. I believe if some really good drains were installed inside the Washington, D. C. beltway and a good flush initiated, many problems would be solved.
 
lizzie said:
The problem with the bolded, is that we already spend huge amounts on education and opportunities, but many people fail to use them as a means for improving their lives. We have been spending huge amounts on welfare programs for many years now, and what we seem to be getting for the money is more welfare obligations.
Much of the problem is cultural. You can throw money at a societal problem, but until the problem is resolved within the individual and the community which is the source of the problem, nothing has been accomplished. nothing? When was the last race riot ? What we need here is a government official with the stats....
You can't fix poor parenting and bad choices by tossing in money. These problems are so deep-seated that they basically can't be fixed by society, but only by the individual.
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And these problems will remain with us as long as there is hatred, racism, fear, bigotry in the hearts of man...
As far as the "huge amounts" being spend on welfare....consider this as the cost of ignorance....
 
earthworm said:
And these problems will remain with us as long as there is hatred, racism, fear, bigotry in the hearts of man...
As far as the "huge amounts" being spend on welfare....consider this as the cost of ignorance....
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Sorry man, but it's not cool to insert words into someone else's posts.
 
DaveFagan said:
Let's not overlook the fact that prisons are a good Corporate business, especially if you can get people put in jail for basically innocent behavior, and keep a steady stream of inmates who are paid for daily by the Federal Gov't. 23 million in jail in the USA.. Per capita, more than any Nation on Earth. Nasty, no-good, reefer smokin', pill poppin', no goodniks gettin' free room and board. Yeh, they probably like that. Now, if you can get some laws passed making aspirin or even sex illegal, we can get occupancy rates that even Wackenhut can live with. Yessir, a boom business, as long as you've got laws to keep the occupancy level up. Makes cop type jobs, more and more Homeland Security types up the local noses. Wowser, the benefits never cease. If you rehabilitate, you lose occupancy rates, so let's not pretend that rehabilitation gets anything but lip service. They buildin' mo' jails and plannin' on keepin' em full. I believe the problems are systemic, not caused by criminal profiles, and there are definitely some criminals out there, but they mostly running banks and casting votes as your representatives in Congress. I believe if some really good drains were installed inside the Washington, D. C. beltway and a good flush initiated, many problems would be solved.
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I "like" this.....
We have progressed....and we have a long way to go.....
There was a time when "sex" was nearly illegal... with the church running things in Europe - hundreds of years ago
 
lizzie said:
Sorry man, but it's not cool to insert words into someone else's posts.
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Cool - schmool....I can see your point.....In 15 years of posting, this is the first I have heard of this....but your point is most valid.
Again, when was the last race riot ?
You claim "nothing has been accomplished"..
I disagree.
Things are improving, but at a snail's pace...
 
Last edited:
when no solution is effective ,we may need punisment.which solution prevents a psycho pedophile from raping a baby and killing him.and it is seen that many pedophiles still go on commiting the same crime even after lots of treatments.you see punisment is a must.and these psychos must be executed.the best solution is this for them
 
Kal'Stang said:
Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?
Click to expand...


I believe our entire outlook on rehabilitation and punishment are skewed in this country. We lock criminals up into a life of hell surrounded by other like minded individuals, we offer little to no real tools to show them a different path and yet we expect them to become model citizens once released. Many are under educated, lack any real (legal) trade, have grown up in poor environments, are now put in further poor environments by our judicial system and are left with a poorer situation to better themselves after release due to criminal records and the stigmas attached. Many have mental health issues that are never really addressed, many have lower then average IQs. My point being our entire system fails to help the situation that has lead many to commit criminal acts. Until we start treating them like people that have made mistakes and try to show them a better way and stop placing them out of sight and out of mind our system will continue to fail us.
 
Baralis said:
I believe our entire outlook on rehabilitation and punishment are skewed in this country. We lock criminals up into a life of hell surrounded by other like minded individuals, we offer little to no real tools to show them a different path and yet we expect them to become model citizens once released. Many are under educated, lack any real (legal) trade, have grown up in poor environments, are now put in further poor environments by our judicial system and are left with a poorer situation to better themselves after release due to criminal records and the stigmas attached. Many have mental health issues that are never really addressed, many have lower then average IQs. My point being our entire system fails to help the situation that has lead many to commit criminal acts. Until we start treating them like people that have made mistakes and try to show them a better way and stop placing them out of sight and out of mind our system will continue to fail us.
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We want to pay for hamburger, a fish steak and a bottle of coke but want it to taste like fine filet mignon, lobster tail and a bottle of Dom. And some even bitch like hell about the price of the hamburger.

We get what we pay for.
 
MKULTRABOY said:
Sentence people by degree of economic impact. :shrug:
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if that were true killing ten homeless people would net you a month in the county lockup but kneecapping Roger Federer would get you the chair
 
TurtleDude said:
aberrations exist in all aspects where men make decisions
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And this particular reality shoots to hell your claim made previously about those two people accused of crimes.
 
haymarket said:
And this particular reality shoots to hell your claim made previously about those two people accused of crimes.
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wrong-as usual

the point is that to claim that white collar criminals ALWAYS get lower punishments is complete crap. and violence is usually going to merit harsher sentences. why-because the only way to incapacitate a VIOLENT criminal is physical restraint or death. While a fraud can be rendered impotent with other sanctions
 
TurtleDude said:
wrong-as usual

the point is that to claim that white collar criminals ALWAYS get lower punishments is complete crap. and violence is usually going to merit harsher sentences. why-because the only way to incapacitate a VIOLENT criminal is physical restraint or death. While a fraud can be rendered impotent with other sanctions
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Maggie proved you were wrong. Man up and live with it.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
I prefer solutions to punishments alone with the caveat that punishment can be a part of the solution.

To me, solutions to the problem of crime have two parts: the individual and society. On the individual level, prison should be a place where people are assessed to determine whether or not their behavioral patterns can be changed. If they can be changed, then the prison takes the steps necessary to do it. Consequently, a prison sentence would be determined according to how long it would take to alter their behavior and establish positive patterns much like time for rehab is determined. After prison, criminals who need them would go into society re-entry programs - much like "sober houses" are for addicts.

On the societal level, solving the problem of crime rests in quality schools, a large quantity of after school/park district programs, programs to teach people skills needed to succeed, quality police activity and other things.

Crime and criminals are problems. These problems have solutions and punishment alone is not one of them.
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I don't know if much rehab is happening anymore. There is a serious overcrowding issue and that means things have to be very regimented and the more people there are, the more difficult it gets. I don't think the system is fair at all, from arrest to conviction and selection of facility it is horrible. So many people do not need to be there, they are not a threat to society at large. Prison is an entirely different culture than what it is on the outside. I think it just breeds more bad behavior.
 
Dragonfly said:
Don't the statistics for USofA's prison population prove without a doubt that we're doing something very wrong in this country?

I'm not saying violent crime should be without punishment.

But we've got a serious problem in this country and just throwing more people in prison for longer periods of time isn't fixing anything.
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I'd say it proves we've got a lot of criminals who would rather commit crimes than not.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?
Click to expand...

I agree with you completely: the government draws its crime projections from the dropout rate, and those projections are transferred to the number of prison beds needed for the future . . . I must say that I'm of the opinion that the country really does not want solutions; if we did such ideas would be as public as "terrorism". I think that, like the best health care, preventative medicine is the best practice: most kids that drift into crime live in areas where they have nothing to do to occupy their time in any productive manner: that's fiscal repsonsibility for you; spend a penny to save a dime never occurs to those "responsible" people. Education in this country is not a priority, for the very profound reason that - it's not a priority; like invading Iraq . . .

The cynic in me declares that "industry" does not want a solution, but lives by the revolving door . . .
 
Kal'Stang said:
38 views and several hours later and no one has an opinion on this? No votes? Is my question really that hard to answer?
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Well in Florida we have the Stand Your Ground law. And as I see it it will keep the police, jails and courts out of these problems.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Time and time again we hear about some politician/s passing new laws or or attempting to pass new laws that increase punishments of those convicted of some crime or other. It is obvious, to me at least, that this line of thinking is a failure. Isn't it time that we start trying to come up with solutions instead of just adding more punishments?

Which do you prefer?
Click to expand...
As a general rule, I agree. In the sense that we need to stop manufacturing criminals where none exist. We need to stop being gullible and buying the line of crap that politicians are selling us when they do this crap.
 
Mensch said:
This coming from a guy who once argued texting while driving should warrant a jail sentence.
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Your point? The question of the thread is "which do you prefer?". I never said that punishment was not needed or should be stopped altogether. But I do believe that solutions need to be had. The problem being that we don't have hardly any. We have drug rehabilitation facilities, AA and not much else.

Also you should prolly note that I am talking about major crimes and not piddly ones like texting while driving.
 
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