Moral question: Should we permit everything that doesn't "harm others"?

Mensch said:

If he would have added "adult" to the OP question, would that help?

As for public decency, how about letting women go topless as men are allowed to do but let's all keep our pants on? :lol:

Click to expand...

***slowley pulls pants back up, hoping no one noticed****

MaggieD said:

Lots of unlesses in there.

STDs would stop if prostitution were legal? Really? Child prostitutes would no longer be in demand? Even more very young women wouldn't be drawn into the life if it were legal? Now. I could see legalizing escort-type prostitution. But on street corners? No freakin' way.

If drugs were legal, there would be millions more drug addicts. Tens of millions. Drug addiction ruins lives...the person using...their familiy...wastes public resources. Marijuana? I'm with you there. The other crap? That would be a travesty.

Click to expand...

I think what others tend to neglect too is the impact it would also have on legal drugs (prescription drugs). If people are legally entitled to do whatever they want to their own bodies then what should stop anyone from obtaining any legal medications? What should keep someone from having to get a prescription for blood sugar/blood pressure/thyroid medications? We have the current medical model and prescriptive checks and balances because it would be a travesty to public health to allow individuals to self diagnose and self treat or to say that they are self entitled to every medication at their elective choice. The ethical and legal implications of legalizing illegal substances and the ethical belief that you can do whatever you want to yourself has many more implications than just legalizing very harmful illegal drugs.

digsbe said:

I think what others tend to neglect too is the impact it would also have on legal drugs (prescription drugs). If people are legally entitled to do whatever they want to their own bodies then what should stop anyone from obtaining any legal medications? What should keep someone from having to get a prescription for blood sugar/blood pressure/thyroid medications? We have the current medical model and prescriptive checks and balances because it would be a travesty to public health to allow individuals to self diagnose and self treat or to say that they are self entitled to every medication at their elective choice. The ethical and legal implications of legalizing illegal substances and the ethical belief that you can do whatever you want to yourself has many more implications than just legalizing very harmful illegal drugs.

Click to expand...

Let me be harsh here, thin the herd, most wont self medicate, those that do will die out. :shrug:

MaggieD said:

Individual drug use fuels drug cartels.

Click to expand...

That is only because it is illegal. Does drinking alcohol fuel gang cartels?

Illegal prostitution attracts crime to neighborhoods and lowers property values. Plus, of course, all prostitution is not voluntary. Ask Leroy about his "commissions."

Click to expand...

The keyword is "illegal." We're discussing the legalization of prostitution, which would protect the workers and would essentially be away from crime. All legal prostitution is voluntary. Simply ask the sex workers at the Cat House.

And why on earth would you exclude "theft"???

Click to expand...

Because theft is theft. It is separate from drug use. If I'm a full-time pothead making an honest living, who am I stealing from? Theft should remain a crime to be punished. Drug use should not.

MaggieD said:

Lots of unlesses in there.

STDs would stop if prostitution were legal? Really? Child prostitutes would no longer be in demand? Even more very young women wouldn't be drawn into the life if it were legal? Now. I could see legalizing escort-type prostitution. But on street corners? No freakin' way.

If drugs were legal, there would be millions more drug addicts. Tens of millions. Drug addiction ruins lives...the person using...their familiy...wastes public resources. Marijuana? I'm with you there. The other crap? That would be a travesty.

Click to expand...

If prostitution were legal, we could regulate it, which would mean having them wear condoms with all clients, getting medical check-ups regularly, and have it in a place where there is security, and the girls are safe. Also the girls would get a fair wage for their work, and not get ripped off by pimps, which is what happens now. I never said STD's would stop, I'm saying you could reduce it dramatically, and I never said legalize it on street corners, the street corner prostitute would become much more rare in my scenario. And the child thing is a strawman, because I never said anything about that, and it is a completely different issue.

Now for drugs, there would not be more drug addicts, and yes drug addiction does ruin lives, but when you can get a prescription for heroin, which is what Oxycontin is basically, don't try to tell me that we as a country are concerned about drug addiction. If we really were that **** would be so illegal, the war on drugs is nothing but a money making scheme, and if you really want to stop addiction, you would get rid of the laws we have now, stop putting people into jail for drug possession and use, and put them into rehab centers.

Also, the number one illegal drug, money, and use wise is marijuana, you legalize that, you get rid of so much crime, and so much violence it would have a great effect on us as a society. Plus all the money we would gain by not wasting it, and how less congested our prisons, and legal system would become. It's amazing that it is not already legalized.

Your Star said:

Now for drugs, there would not be more drug addicts, and yes drug addiction does ruin lives, but when you can get a prescription for heroin, which is what Oxycontin is basically, don't try to tell me that we as a country are concerned about drug addiction. If we really were that **** would be so illegal, the war on drugs is nothing but a money making scheme, and if you really want to stop addiction, you would get rid of the laws we have now, stop putting people into jail for drug possession and use, and put them into rehab centers.

Also, the number one illegal drug, money, and use wise is marijuana, you legalize that, you get rid of so much crime, and so much violence it would have a great effect on us as a society. Plus all the money we would gain by not wasting it, and how less congested our prisons, and legal system would become. It's amazing that it is not already legalized.

Click to expand...

Oxycontin is an opioid, but it isn't essentially heroin. Right now those medications are extremely, and I mean extremely, regulated. How is a war on drugs a money making scheme when it costs so much? And how does legalizing extremely harmful and addictive substances lessen the amount of addiction? If drugs are legal are less going to be using them?

I agree somewhat that it's absurd to have people thrown in jail for using drugs (not selling) and I think things should be more rehab based. But legalizing illegal drugs is very harmful and would not benefit American society. People don't have a right to abuse substances nor do they have a right to self treat with legal prescriptive drugs.

digsbe said:

Moral question: Should we permit everything that doesn't "harm others"? If something doesn't "harm others" should it be legal and permitted? Should we have societal standards? Should we have some legal morals? Do people have a right to do all things they wish so long as others aren't harmed?

Click to expand...

it may depend on what we point out.drug is harmful,for instance,and it is just harmful for the ones who use it.so it must not be permitted ....

ReverendHellh0und said:

Let me be harsh here, thin the herd, most wont self medicate, those that do will die out. :shrug:

Click to expand...

ಠ_ಠ

123456789

Your Star said:

If prostitution were legal, we could regulate it, which would mean having them wear condoms with all clients, getting medical check-ups regularly, and have it in a place where there is security, and the girls are safe. Also the girls would get a fair wage for their work, and not get ripped off by pimps, which is what happens now. I never said STD's would stop, I'm saying you could reduce it dramatically, and I never said legalize it on street corners, the street corner prostitute would become much more rare in my scenario. And the child thing is a strawman, because I never said anything about that, and it is a completely different issue.

Now for drugs, there would not be more drug addicts, and yes drug addiction does ruin lives, but when you can get a prescription for heroin, which is what Oxycontin is basically, don't try to tell me that we as a country are concerned about drug addiction. If we really were that **** would be so illegal, the war on drugs is nothing but a money making scheme, and if you really want to stop addiction, you would get rid of the laws we have now, stop putting people into jail for drug possession and use, and put them into rehab centers.

Also, the number one illegal drug, money, and use wise is marijuana, you legalize that, you get rid of so much crime, and so much violence it would have a great effect on us as a society. Plus all the money we would gain by not wasting it, and how less congested our prisons, and legal system would become. It's amazing that it is not already legalized.

Click to expand...

I support full legalization for marijuana, including use, possession, production and licenced sales to adults.

Reason? I don't see it as being any worse than booze, and legalizing might deflate the cartels and reduce their power, just as the repeal of Prohibition dramatically reduced the power and influence of 1920s-30s gangster organizations. Not to mention that we've gone nuts with giving too much power to law enforcement in the name of the WoD.

However, I don't see legalizing crack or meth... too toxic and dangerous. Cocaine, possibly. Heroin, probably not.

digsbe said:

Those are the things I am mainly focusing on because many would argue that there isn't harm to others with such activities.

My view is that as a society we should have societal standards. People who are members of society don't have the right to do whatever they want simply because what they do in private doesn't directly harm others (like drugs). I think society, via the government, has a right to create societal standards within the realm of the Constitution.

Click to expand...

But you see digs, they won't make the obese stop eating. Which also has externalities.

We permit a wide range of activities that pose a risk to the lives of the participants and others, like skydiving.

The idea that being "high" is wrong is a construct. Mammals seek to alter their consciousness. Little kids spin in circles till they fall down.

And since prostitution precedes "law" it should have been grandfathered. It probably represents the birth of capitalism.

Goshin said:

I support full legalization for marijuana, including use, possession, production and licenced sales to adults.

Reason? I don't see it as being any worse than booze, and legalizing might deflate the cartels and reduce their power, just as the repeal of Prohibition dramatically reduced the power and influence of 1920s-30s gangster organizations. Not to mention that we've gone nuts with giving too much power to law enforcement in the name of the WoD.

However, I don't see legalizing crack or meth... too toxic and dangerous. Cocaine, possibly. Heroin, probably not.

Click to expand...

In the medical world they call "speed" adhd drugs.

digsbe said:

Oxycontin is an opioid, but it isn't essentially heroin. Right now those medications are highly, and I mean highly, regulated. How is a war on drugs a money making scheme when it costs so much? And how does legalizing extremely harmful and addictive substances lessen the amount of addiction? If drugs are legal are less going to be using them?

I agree somewhat that it's absurd to have people thrown in jail for using drugs (not selling) and I think things should be more rehab based. But legalizing illegal drugs is very harmful and would not benefit American society. People don't have a right to abuse substances nor do they have a right to self treat with legal prescriptive drugs.

Click to expand...

our medical system prescribes worse than what the streets offer.marijuana is banned for medical use on a federal level but a synthetic shown to be the same as thc,is prescribed and less regulated despite the fact its way more pwerful,i think it was called marinol.we get more er visits from prescription drugs than illegal drugs.

we prescribe adderal which is basically a weaker form of meth,we prescribe oxycontin which is super addictive.we prescribe percocet which sells for around 20 bucks a pill on the street,i can get high for a day with the money one pill takes,but to some its so addictive.

i got prescribed percocet 30's ,which is equal to 6 normal percocets prescribed per pill,i was popping about 6 a day because of my pain,after i healed i ended up flushing the last 5 pills because people wanted them that bad.if a 5mg percocet can fetch 20 bucks,people were willing to pay me 300 for those 5 pills,never seen anyone pay that for any hard drugs,yet these arent very regulated because they were aproved for use.

megaprogman said:

ಠ_ಠ

123456789

Click to expand...

this is sparta!!!!!!!

MaggieD said:

Illegal drug use is harmful to others. Prostitution is harmful to others. Addiction to substances is harmful to others. I thought you probably meant those kinds of so-called victimless crimes. They are not victimless.

Click to expand...

I disagree. Yes, the people who love a drug addict are affected by the addiction. That does not negate the fact that a consenting adult should have the right to do whatever he/she wishes with his/her own body, be it taking drugs, drinking alcohol, smoking tobacco, whatever. If drugs were legal, global crime cartels would implode overnight, and the money saved on drug enforcement could be funneled into low-cost rehabilitation and education facilities.

Prostitution should also be legal and regulated. Unless the prostitute is being forced, a violation of many other laws, then she is plying her trade of her own free will. Her clients are there of their own free will. If you're thinking they harm others because of STD's, a legal, regulated prostitute is cleaner and more savvy than the mistress the married guy bonks in the office. If you're thinking about the wives being deceived, that's on the married man who fools around, not on the prostitute.

Prohibition never works. History has shown us that prohibiting what people can ingest or do with their own bodies does nothing but make felons out of non-criminal citizens, and prop up a profitable crime syndicate to provide a black-market service.

Both drug laws and prostitution laws are on the books for one reason and one reason only: The continuing need for lots and lots of law enforcement jobs, and the continuing need for government enforcement bureaucracies, like the DEA. If we made drugs and prostitution legal, the supporting crimewave would fold and they'd lose a lot of jobs and power.

ReverendHellh0und said:

this is sparta!!!!!!!

Click to expand...

beerftw said:

our medical system prescribes worse than what the streets offer.marijuana is banned for medical use on a federal level but a synthetic shown to be the same as thc,is prescribed and less regulated despite the fact its way more pwerful,i think it was called marinol.we get more er visits from prescription drugs than illegal drugs.

we prescribe adderal which is basically a weaker form of meth,we prescribe oxycontin which is super addictive.we prescribe percocet which sells for around 20 bucks a pill on the street,i can get high for a day with the money one pill takes,but to some its so addictive.

i got prescribed percocet 30's ,which is equal to 6 normal percocets prescribed per pill,i was popping about 6 a day because of my pain,after i healed i ended up flushing the last 5 pills because people wanted them that bad.if a 5mg percocet can fetch 20 bucks,people were willing to pay me 300 for those 5 pills,never seen anyone pay that for any hard drugs,yet these arent very regulated because they were aproved for use.

Click to expand...

We have many ER visits because of drug overdoses of these medications. People abuse them and use them incorrectly to obtain more of a high. Others may drink alcohol along with it and cause an interaction.

Personally, I think it's bad enough with how many people are prescribed and given addictive narcotics. Many people go to a physician complaining of chronic pain and are given narcotics to treat a pain that has no diagnostic reason behind it. People have learned how to farm out prescribes for their candy. In my opinion we need to have more regulations by the DEA upon prescribes who liberally write for this stuff.

digsbe said:

Oxycontin is an opioid, but it isn't essentially heroin. Right now those medications are extremely, and I mean extremely, regulated. How is a war on drugs a money making scheme when it costs so much? And how does legalizing extremely harmful and addictive substances lessen the amount of addiction? If drugs are legal are less going to be using them?

I agree somewhat that it's absurd to have people thrown in jail for using drugs (not selling) and I think things should be more rehab based. But legalizing illegal drugs is very harmful and would not benefit American society. People don't have a right to abuse substances nor do they have a right to self treat with legal prescriptive drugs.

Click to expand...

In Florida you can go from doctor to doctor all day, say you have pain, and get hundreds of pills a day, regulated my ass.

And the war on drugs is a huge money making scheme, it cost's us money, the taxpayers, but for the government, the cops, the court system, the for profit jails, make tons of money, they are making a killing off of us. It's disgusting really. Also the prohibition of drugs gives a bunch of power, and money to criminals, you can't escape these facts, we legalize it, and there power goes down immensely. If I had a choice of having drugs controlled by criminals, or legit business, I would choose the business every time.

Also, how far do you go with this? I mean, we have the right to abuse a lot of things, should we lock people up, and force people to lose weight from overeating? I mean, that can kill you, that is bad for society to have a bunch of fat people not running around, clogging up our health care system.

In order to answer the poll accurately, the second option must always be clicked. Making everything that doesn't harm others legal is a societal standard based on a morals. The reverse is also a moral standard.

Your Star said:

In Florida you can go from doctor to doctor all day, say you have pain, and get hundreds of pills a day, regulated my ass.

And the war on drugs is a huge money making scheme, it cost's us money, the taxpayers, but for the government, the cops, the court system, the for profit jails, make tons of money, they are making a killing off of us. It's disgusting really. Also the prohibition of drugs gives a bunch of power, and money to criminals, you can't escape these facts, we legalize it, and there power goes down immensely. If I had a choice of having drugs controlled by criminals, or legit business, I would choose the business every time.

Also, how far do you go with this? I mean, we have the right to abuse a lot of things, should we lock people up, and force people to lose weight from overeating? I mean, that can kill you, that is bad for society to have a bunch of fat people not running around, clogging up our health care system.

Click to expand...

Yes, Florida is notorious for pain clinic pill mills. And even here where I live we see these Floridian prescriptions. We do not fill them at the pharmacy I work at due to them being highly abused.

I don't see why the government would logically have the war on drugs when it costs the government money. The government doesn't benefit from having to spend that money. The only reason I would see it going on as you say is if somehow prisons and police unions were contracting corruptly with the government to make a profit.

And you are right, we do have the right to abuse lots of things, and I think it's bad enough already (personally I think alcoholics should be criminally charged and alcohol regulated more). Just because we don't ban all harmful things doesn't mean we should legalize more.

digsbe said:

Yes, Florida is notorious for pain clinic pill mills. And even here where I live we see these Floridian prescriptions. We do not fill them at the pharmacy I work at due to them being highly abused.

I don't see why the government would logically have the war on drugs when it costs the government money. The government doesn't benefit from having to spend that money. The only reason I would see it going on as you say is if somehow prisons and police unions were contracting corruptly with the government to make a profit.

And you are right, we do have the right to abuse lots of things, and I think it's bad enough already (personally I think alcoholics should be criminally charged and alcohol regulated more). Just because we don't ban all harmful things doesn't mean we should legalize more.

Click to expand...

if we stopped the war on drugs and legalized marijuana,all those pain pills wouldnt be needed,and the pharmacutical companies would lose big bucks,why should you be allowed to cure pain for 60 bucks a week when they now require insurance to cover pills costing 100's a week.no one in their right mind would pay that much for pain medication when mj is so cheap,unless ofcourse they were forced t buy it.

Your Star said:

Illegal drug abuse is nor more harmful to others than legal drug abuse, unless your talking about all the crime associated with the sale, and distribution of it, though that is because of it being illegal, and those problems would go away if you made them legal

Prostitution does not harm anyone either, unless you are talking about the women being abused by pimps, and their unfair wages, and all the STD's they can get, of course that would stop if you made it legal as well.

See the patter emerging?

Click to expand...

You mean the pattern of wearing blinders and refusing to see the long-term consequences of "anything goes"? Yes, I see the pattern. Quite clearly.

Goshin said:

That is the $64,000 question isn't it? It is fundamental to how we want to govern/be governed.

Personally I think going to either extreme would be disasterous; I favor a middle-of-the-road approach. We should have some basic standards yes... for instance we've decided that a 15yo cannot consent to sex, even if she does consent, because her consent is too uninformed and so on. Public sex doesn't "hurt" anyone but I don't think it should be allowed; some fundamental standards of public decency make for a better society.

OTOH trying to legislate virtue into law is something that ought to be done very sparingly and very carefully, when it is done at all.... else we could fall into a dictatorship of the well-meaning.

EXACTLY where to draw that "go no further" line is always the question of course.

Keep to the middle of the road please. :mrgreen:

Click to expand...

Pretty much this. All of it, but especially the parts in red.

I hate being at the bottom of a page. Nobody ever reads my stuff and tells me how brilliant it was.

MaggieD said:

Lots of unlesses in there.

STDs would stop if prostitution were legal? Really? Child prostitutes would no longer be in demand? Even more very young women wouldn't be drawn into the life if it were legal? Now. I could see legalizing escort-type prostitution. But on street corners? No freakin' way.

If drugs were legal, there would be millions more drug addicts. Tens of millions. Drug addiction ruins lives...the person using...their familiy...wastes public resources. Marijuana? I'm with you there. The other crap? That would be a travesty.

Click to expand...

Actually drug abuse tends to self correct. Most of the drugs used today have been used in some form for a great many years, yet we managed to build a technological civilization.

A generation burned down on crack. This form is far more addictive than its snorted counterpart and much cheaper than "fre-basing. So it took them by surprise. The next generation, having seen the wreckage is forewarned.

When I first started getting high, one of my friends' mom was THE white heroin dealer in San Diego. Expoaure to junkies took heroin off our lists of things to try.

Far too many of our problems with drugs derive from their illegality. People hide their use, which makes it harder for friends and family to intervene.

Further, an obscene amount of deliberate misinformation is distributed through official channels as to the risks and consequences involved. They tell kids pot is just as dangerous as crack, kid tries pot, discovers it isn't anywhere near as bad a s they were told, and then tries crack or meth assuming they were.lied to about that as well and BANG! Big problem.

In other words, much of what we consider "dangers" of drug use are DIRECTLY atteibutable to their illegality and not their actual inherent hazards. (Which there are, don't get me wrong. But they would be manageable hazards if we took a more enlightened approach to the subject. What we do now is akin to absinence only sex ed in schools. It simply does not work and is actuall counterproductive)

beerftw said:

if we stopped the war on drugs and legalized marijuana,all those pain pills wouldnt be needed,and the pharmacutical companies would lose big bucks,why should you be allowed to cure pain for 60 bucks a week when they now require insurance to cover pills costing 100's a week.no one in their right mind would pay that much for pain medication when mj is so cheap,unless ofcourse they were forced t buy it.

Click to expand...

People don't have the right to treat pain with narcotics. Physicians and prescribers have the right to prescribe these medications. People can treat their own pain with Tylenol and otc pain relievers.

Your argument would really only apply to using marijuana as a prescription. We already have prescriptive THC in the form of marinol/dronabinol. I think it's medically absurd to give someone weed to treat something when THC is already prescribable and to essentially allow them to smoke in their medications. We don't give someone a maintenance drug to be inserted into a cigarette to be administered. But I guess prescriptive marijuana is for another thread.

DiAnna said:

I hate being at the bottom of a page. Nobody ever reads my stuff and tells me how brilliant it was.

Click to expand...

I think you're brilliant Di (even though I disagree with your opinion on this issue) :mrgreen:

digsbe said:

Yes, Florida is notorious for pain clinic pill mills. And even here where I live we see these Floridian prescriptions. We do not fill them at the pharmacy I work at due to them being highly abused.

I don't see why the government would logically have the war on drugs when it costs the government money. The government doesn't benefit from having to spend that money. The only reason I would see it going on as you say is if somehow prisons and police unions were contracting corruptly with the government to make a profit.

And you are right, we do have the right to abuse lots of things, and I think it's bad enough already (personally I think alcoholics should be criminally charged and alcohol regulated more). Just because we don't ban all harmful things doesn't mean we should legalize more.

Click to expand...

It's not that hard to see why they would have it. With the for profit jails, let me say that again, for profit jails the more people you arrest, the more money they make. And non-violent drug offenders is what makes them money, and that's only one aspect. There are the cops who want more money for their departments, the alcohol, and tobacco lobby's giving money to politicians to keep other drugs illegal(especially marijuana), the pharmaceutical companies who want people to be addicted to the drugs they are selling. There are billions of dollars being made due our war on drugs.

And personally, it's a philosophy level, I don't think making something illegal fixes the problem, it just hides the problem, and or puts it on someone else's shoulders, and also creates new problems. So while you may think you are solving a problem by making drugs illegal, you are just creating a black market, where criminals will flourish, crime will increase, and you will still have people addicted to the drugs. So what are you really accomplishing, other than making the situation worse?