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Should women be allowed to serve in combat roles in the military?

Should women be allowed in combat roles in military?

  • Yes

    Votes: 45 68.2%
  • No

    Votes: 14 21.2%
  • IDK/other

    Votes: 7 10.6%

  • Total voters
    66
Any man who wants to push women in front of bullets (except their wives and ex-wives), raise your hand and be counted.

No one.....that's what I thought.

LOL - with male initiated violence against women - murder, rape, etc - on such a streak I think it would actually be harder to find men who didn't want to put a woman in harm's way.

My husband wanted me to qualify more than anything - I didn't, of course, because having several children is very bad in this country.
 
LOL - with male initiated violence against women - murder, rape, etc - on such a streak I think it would actually be harder to find men who didn't want to put a woman in harm's way.

My husband wanted me to qualify more than anything - I didn't, of course, because having several children is very bad in this country.

I used the word wives, nuff said. :lol:
 
Not "group think" but common sense. I mean you can ignore the evidence and that is your prerogative, it does not however change the reality of the situation. Until science advances to the point were ground units no longer need physical endurance and strength as the evidence shows, their is little to debate.

Instead of addressing the evidence or answering my question, you simply dismiss it as "group think." That alone should be enough to prove how weak your position and argument really are.

Very little is common about good sense, but that is what people suffering from group think say. So, I'm unconvinced that you're not suffering from it.

I've ignored no evidence, but only suggest that there is more than one way to accomplish any mission. Even males have to sometimes compensation of short comings. All of us have to work within our skill set to accomplish any task. This often means finding a different way than what someone else with a different skill set might do. This is not revolutionary or beyond our common experience.

And you've offered no evidence that addresses my question.
 

Generally they shoot better as I recall. On the whole, they have a better center of gravity. They also work together better. Communicate better.

You asked.
 
Very little is common about good sense, but that is what people suffering from group think say. So, I'm unconvinced that you're not suffering from it.

Well if you consider looking at the evidence and personal military experience "group think" instead of intelligence, so be it.

I've ignored no evidence, but only suggest that there is more than one way to accomplish any mission. Even males have to sometimes compensation of short comings. All of us have to work within our skill set to accomplish any task. This often means finding a different way than what someone else with a different skill set might do. This is not revolutionary or beyond our common experience.

I did address it...

"Until science advances to the point were ground units no longer need physical endurance and strength as the evidence shows, their is little to debate. - Blackdog

And yes you did ignore the evidence with no input what so ever about what this mystical magical way of doing something is. In fact you have offered nothing.

And you've offered no evidence that addresses my question.

No one said they were all able? The problem is so few could do it, it is not worth the affect it would have on unit cohesion etc...

BRITISH STUDY FINDS FEMALE SOLDIERS “TOO WEAK” FOR LAND COMBAT
1/14/2002 12:58:35 PM

...Negative findings in the Combat Effectiveness Gender Study are even more significant in view of the fact that test exercises reportedly had been so diluted and watered down that they amounted to little more than "aggressive camping." (Electronic Telegraph, Mar. 26, 2001) According to Brig. Seymour Monro, the Army’s Director of Infantry, tasks that women soldiers were not physically capable of performing had been made easier or dropped from the trials...
- Center for Military Readiness | International Policies

It was reviewed and tried again in 2010...

BRITISH CONCLUDE STUDY OF WOMEN IN COMBAT: NO CHANGES
Tuesday, November 30, 2010

...The Ministry of Defence has completed a review into the policy that excludes female members of the Armed Forces from carrying out ground close combat roles, and decided that it should remain unchanged...
- CENTEX UNFILTERED NEWS: BRITISH CONCLUDE STUDY OF WOMEN IN COMBAT: NO CHANGES

Few serious armies use women in combat roles. Israel, which drafts most of its young women and uses them in all kinds of military work, has learned from experience to take them out of combat zones. Tests show that few women have the upper-body strength required for combat tasks. Keeping combat forces all male would not be discriminatory, as were earlier racial segregation schemes in the military, because men and women are different both physically and psychologically,” - Feb. 5, 1990, National Review.

Israeli women won’t see combat
October 20, 2003

"JERUSALEM -- Young women who are drafted into the Israeli military will be barred from most combat duties because of a medical study that has determined they are, after all, the weaker sex..."
- Israeli women won't see combat - Washington Times

On the contrary I have offered plenty of real world evidence that says your way does not exist yet.
 
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I think some have plenty of upper body strength...

Typically there are exceptions, but in reality women are generally weaker than men, regarding physical strength.
 
Typically there are exceptions, but in reality women are generally weaker than men, regarding physical strength.

For those exceptions I think they should be allowed to serve in traditional ground combat roles. Women are already in combat situations since there isn't any front line in the current fighting we are engaged in.
 
Generally they shoot better as I recall.

No truth to this. It is an old wife's tale at best. Men and women are about the same. In competition shooting the large majority of top shooters are men. I think this has more to do with interest though.

On the whole, they have a better center of gravity.

And this makes them better at what? Child birth? I will concede on that one.

They also work together better.

Not true, it depends on context.

Men Cooperate as Well as Women – Sometimes

Coooperation, it turns out, is a little more complex than the common assumption that women tend to be better at it than men. In fact, researchers have found that that men cooperate as well as women — and cooperate better with other men than women do with each other.
- Men Cooperate as Well as Women – Sometimes | Psych Central News

Communicate better.

Not true at all, they communicate differently and for different reasons.

You Just Don't Understand
by Deborah Tannen, Ph.D.

"For males, conversation is the way you negotiate your status in the group and keep people from pushing you around; you use talk to preserve your independence. Females, on the other hand, use conversation to negotiate closeness and intimacy; talk is the essence of intimacy, so being best friends means sitting and talking. For boys, activities, doing things together, are central. Just sitting and talking is not an essential part of friendship. They're friends with the boys they do things with."
It's not hard, from even these simple observations, to see the potential problems when men and women communicate. Women create feelings of closeness by conversing with their friends and lovers. Men don't use communication in this way, so they can't figure out why their women are continually talk, talk, talking. Eventually, many men just tune their women out. The ubiquitous image of the housewife at the breakfast table talking to her husband who has his head buried in the newspaper comes to mind.
- Communication styles of men and women, Tannen

You asked.

I answered.
 
There is no reasonable argument for the universal exclusion of women in the military. Though, on average, men are stronger than women, the physical difference in strength between the sexes is not of considerable concern in most posts in modern-day warfare. More important attributes are average intelligence, mental and physical agility, and dexterous skillfulness, which are required for the proficient use of contemporary weaponry in present-day combat and supporting roles.

In situations where hand-to-hand combat is a likely possibility, considerations of exclusion are pragmatic; however, they should not be universally decided. Since direct physical altercations are exceptionally rare in the Navy and Air Force, exclusion of qualified women is discriminatory. Similarly, not all positions in the Army are likely to experience hand-to-hand fighting and should universally allow for women participants.

When arguments against female inclusion only focus on unit cohesion and male perceptions of females’ ability and how men behave as a result of women’s presence, the claims are founded in male prejudices.

(Claims of women as distractions is as ridiculous as arguments for the separation of the sexes in education and the non-military workplace).

Ability should be grounded in tested strengths and weaknesses as opposed to presumed ones; female involvement should be on a case-by-case basis as it is with men. And if male service people have trouble working with women, they should be educated on how to work alongside humans.
 
There is no reasonable argument for the universal exclusion of women in the military. Though, on average, men are stronger than women, the physical difference in strength between the sexes is not of considerable concern in most posts in modern-day warfare. More important attributes are average intelligence, mental and physical agility, and dexterous skillfulness, which are required for the proficient use of contemporary weaponry in present-day combat and supporting roles.

In situations where hand-to-hand combat is a likely possibility, considerations of exclusion are pragmatic; however, they should not be universally decided. Since direct physical altercations are exceptionally rare in the Navy and Air Force, exclusion of qualified women is discriminatory. Similarly, not all positions in the Army are likely to experience hand-to-hand fighting and should universally allow for women participants.

When arguments against female inclusion only focus on unit cohesion and male perceptions of females’ ability and how men behave as a result of women’s presence, the claims are founded in male prejudices.

(Claims of women as distractions is as ridiculous as arguments for the separation of the sexes in education and the non-military workplace).

Ability should be grounded in tested strengths and weaknesses as opposed to presumed ones; female involvement should be on a case-by-case basis as it is with men. And if male service people have trouble working with women, they should be educated on how to work alongside humans.

Ummmmm???? No one is advocating or saying women should be excluded from service in the military. What we are debating is women excluded from a ground combat roll, period.

Wow.
 
Still waiting for someone to address the evidence.

BRITISH STUDY FINDS FEMALE SOLDIERS “TOO WEAK” FOR LAND COMBAT
1/14/2002 12:58:35 PM

...Negative findings in the Combat Effectiveness Gender Study are even more significant in view of the fact that test exercises reportedly had been so diluted and watered down that they amounted to little more than "aggressive camping." (Electronic Telegraph, Mar. 26, 2001) According to Brig. Seymour Monro, the Army’s Director of Infantry, tasks that women soldiers were not physically capable of performing had been made easier or dropped from the trials...
- Center for Military Readiness | International Policies

It was reviewed and tried again in 2010...

BRITISH CONCLUDE STUDY OF WOMEN IN COMBAT: NO CHANGES
Tuesday, November 30, 2010

...The Ministry of Defence has completed a review into the policy that excludes female members of the Armed Forces from carrying out ground close combat roles, and decided that it should remain unchanged...
- CENTEX UNFILTERED NEWS: BRITISH CONCLUDE STUDY OF WOMEN IN COMBAT: NO CHANGES

Few serious armies use women in combat roles. Israel, which drafts most of its young women and uses them in all kinds of military work, has learned from experience to take them out of combat zones. Tests show that few women have the upper-body strength required for combat tasks. Keeping combat forces all male would not be discriminatory, as were earlier racial segregation schemes in the military, because men and women are different both physically and psychologically,” - Feb. 5, 1990, National Review.

Israeli women won’t see combat
October 20, 2003

"JERUSALEM -- Young women who are drafted into the Israeli military will be barred from most combat duties because of a medical study that has determined they are, after all, the weaker sex..."
- Israeli women won't see combat - Washington Times
 
Ummmmm???? No one is advocating or saying women should be excluded from service in the military. What we are debating is women excluded from a ground combat roll, period.

Wow.

My post was in direct response to the opening of the thread. The term 'combat role' can be operating a tank. It is unambiguous and may include a wide variety of roles. My post is to support women inclusion in the military in general and in various combat roles. If they can perform the mental and physical duties expected of them, they should be permitted to fulfill any position.
 
Women already do serve in combat arms. They are MPs and gunship drivers. Several have fallen fighting for this country. You can make all manner of generalities about women, their strength and abilities but bottomline is quite a few women can do everything the average grunt can.

The question isn't can EVERY woman hack it, the question is can those women who can be allowed.

The question isn't who would push a woman infront of them in a fight, but who would stand in the way of a woman determined to fight.

Having been a grunt I see it not as how much upper body strength a soldier has, but the ability to FIDO in the face of the enemy while being 'lead' from the rear by some of the biggest idiots Gawd ever blessed a military with.

Don't need a penis to do that.
 
My post was in direct response to the opening of the thread. The term 'combat role' can be operating a tank. It is unambiguous and may include a wide variety of roles. My post is to support women inclusion in the military in general and in various combat roles. If they can perform the mental and physical duties expected of them, they should be permitted to fulfill any position.

No they can't. Are you going to address the evidence I have posted saying that they are not capable of ground combat rolls on any kind of reasonable scale. Or are you just going to voice opinion with no evidence to back it up?
 
Women already do serve in combat arms. They are MPs and gunship drivers. Several have fallen fighting for this country. You can make all manner of generalities about women, their strength and abilities but bottomline is quite a few women can do everything the average grunt can.

The question isn't can EVERY woman hack it, the question is can those women who can be allowed.

The question isn't who would push a woman infront of them in a fight, but who would stand in the way of a woman determined to fight.

Having been a grunt I see it not as how much upper body strength a soldier has, but the ability to FIDO in the face of the enemy while being 'lead' from the rear by some of the biggest idiots Gawd ever blessed a military with.

Don't need a penis to do that.

I was in the Army for 12 years as well, and completely disagree. Of course the only real difference is I have posted evidence to back up my opinion.

PS the problem is so few can, it is not worth it. Again all the evidence points to this conclusion.
 
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Still waiting for someone to address the evidence.

BRITISH STUDY FINDS FEMALE SOLDIERS “TOO WEAK” FOR LAND COMBAT
1/14/2002 12:58:35 PM

...Negative findings in the Combat Effectiveness Gender Study are even more significant in view of the fact that test exercises reportedly had been so diluted and watered down that they amounted to little more than "aggressive camping." (Electronic Telegraph, Mar. 26, 2001) According to Brig. Seymour Monro, the Army’s Director of Infantry, tasks that women soldiers were not physically capable of performing had been made easier or dropped from the trials...
- Center for Military Readiness | International Policies

It was reviewed and tried again in 2010...

BRITISH CONCLUDE STUDY OF WOMEN IN COMBAT: NO CHANGES
Tuesday, November 30, 2010

...The Ministry of Defence has completed a review into the policy that excludes female members of the Armed Forces from carrying out ground close combat roles, and decided that it should remain unchanged...
- CENTEX UNFILTERED NEWS: BRITISH CONCLUDE STUDY OF WOMEN IN COMBAT: NO CHANGES

Few serious armies use women in combat roles. Israel, which drafts most of its young women and uses them in all kinds of military work, has learned from experience to take them out of combat zones. Tests show that few women have the upper-body strength required for combat tasks. Keeping combat forces all male would not be discriminatory, as were earlier racial segregation schemes in the military, because men and women are different both physically and psychologically,” - Feb. 5, 1990, National Review.

Israeli women won’t see combat
October 20, 2003

"JERUSALEM -- Young women who are drafted into the Israeli military will be barred from most combat duties because of a medical study that has determined they are, after all, the weaker sex..."
- Israeli women won't see combat - Washington Times

That's based on the assumption that strength is what is required. Group think, not challenging the assumption.
 
Well if you consider looking at the evidence and personal military experience "group think" instead of intelligence, so be it.



I did address it...

"Until science advances to the point were ground units no longer need physical endurance and strength as the evidence shows, their is little to debate. - Blackdog

And yes you did ignore the evidence with no input what so ever about what this mystical magical way of doing something is. In fact you have offered nothing.





On the contrary I have offered plenty of real world evidence that says your way does not exist yet.

What this shows it that you misunderstand the argument being made. I'm not arguing that women are stronger than males. I'm arguing that the assumption MAY be wrong.

So, no, you have not offered any evidence based on what I'm arguing.
 
That's based on the assumption that strength is what is required.

It is not an assumption, it is a well known fact. I don't think you bothered to read any of the studys. If you had you would know this.

Group think, not challenging the assumption.

Fact is not in any way "group think." Fact is you have no argument and no evidence to back up your position at all.
 
What this shows it that you misunderstand the argument being made. I'm not arguing that women are stronger than males. I'm arguing that the assumption MAY be wrong.

I know exactly what you are saying, you are the one not getting it. The fact is it is NOT AN ASSUMPTION, IT IS A FACT. It is not wrong in any way. Modern science has tons of evidence showing this.

So, no, you have not offered any evidence based on what I'm arguing.

Yes I have. The studies show that men on average are much stronger than the female counterpart. So much so military's in most modern country's have decided women in ground combat rolls are counter productive and a waist of resources.
 
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I know and you are not getting it. The fact is it is NOT AN ASSUMPTION, IT IS A FACT. It is not wrong in any way. Modern science has tons of evidence showing this.

State clearly: Showing what exactly?

Yes I have. The studies show that men on average are much stronger than the female counterpart. So much so military's in most modern country's have decided women in combat rolls are counter productive and a waist of resources.

Again, I'm not arguing anything dealing with whose is or isn't stronger. As long as you keep going back to who is stronger, you are not addressing my argument. Sorry.
 
No they can't. Are you going to address the evidence I have posted saying that they are not capable of ground combat rolls on any kind of reasonable scale. Or are you just going to voice opinion with no evidence to back it up?

I was clear in my expression of if they can perform the duties, they should be able to fulfill them. I have looked over the British study for the Center for Military Readiness and that study certainly shows a lack of equality in performing front-line combat roles.

I don't necessarily agree with clumping all women in the 'inadequate' category b/c a large majority cannot fulfill that role; however, if, through such studies as the above mentioned, the decision is made to completely ban women from the front-line b/c it is not cost effective or the best use of time to put even some women who may be able to perform the physical tasks with passing grades through the tests, then fine. Also, as noted in the study, men tend to act more instinctively than professionally with women front-line personnel.

But, the purpose of the military is to train professionalism and instinctiveness. If the will existed, i.e., if a far, far greater number of women on average could perform the physical tasks necessary for front-line deployment, i'm sure the "instinctual behaviour over professional behaviour" could be managed.
 
State clearly: Showing what exactly?

When it comes to modern combat, you still need endurance and physical strength to be effective in a ground combat roll. Without this, no matter how many different ways you try, you will fail, period. Just like the majority of women in the studies.

Again, I'm not arguing anything dealing with whose is or isn't stronger. As long as you keep going back to who is stronger, you are not addressing my argument. Sorry.

I know exactly what your argument is. It is just a far fetched premise based on loose philosophy that means nothing in the real world, and does not in any way fit real world examples. I mean really the assumption according to your examples was down right stupid. Hell Jerry had no idea what you where even asking because you were so obtuse.
 
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I was clear in my expression of if they can perform the duties, they should be able to fulfill them. I have looked over the British study for the Center for Military Readiness and that study certainly shows a lack of equality in performing front-line combat roles.

I don't necessarily agree with clumping all women in the 'inadequate' category b/c a large majority cannot fulfill that role; however, if, through such studies as the above mentioned, the decision is made to completely ban women from the front-line b/c it is not cost effective or the best use of time to put even some women who may be able to perform the physical tasks with passing grades through the tests, then fine. Also, as noted in the study, men tend to act more instinctively than professionally with women front-line personnel.

But, the purpose of the military is to train professionalism and instinctiveness. If the will existed, i.e., if a far, far greater number of women on average could perform the physical tasks necessary for front-line deployment, i'm sure the "instinctual behaviour over professional behaviour" could be managed.

No I agree, no reason to ban women from the front lines as they preform admirably and are just as effect as their male counter parts. No one is suggesting this as I said.

The only thing being said is they should not be in ground combat units as in infantry, armor and artillary because of the physical makeup of the female body. It is just not geared for ground combat rolls.
 
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