Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

roguenuke · Mar 13, 2012

JohnWOlin said:
I'm with nota on this. I want to know where these places are. Now, there is a difference between straight people talking amongst themselves how much it pisses them off and someone actually doing anything about it. I have a gay brother, a gay neighbor, my wifes uncle is gay, I've had about 5 gay friends in my life and while some of them can talk about being made fun of at some point, none of them can say they have ever been kept from doing certain things or held back due to being gay. You would be surprised most gay people, like straight people don't go around making a deal about it and that isn't what defines them. Like most normal people what defines them is their actions as a human being, and what they accomplish in life.

Being in the Navy, I have seen some people held back for being gay. That whole DADT thing that only just got repealed (officially) less than a year ago.

This is the issue. Some of you are acting like it is a horrible thing to point out that there is some oppression in the US against gays. It's not. The laws that make the oppression due to the government (adoption laws, marriage laws, etc.) need to be changed. But every group faces some oppression by someone, everywhere. Very few groups in the US have to fight so hard nowdays to end legal oppression that can seriously and demonstrably affect their lives. LGBT people are one of those groups.

Boo Radley · Mar 13, 2012

Ockham said:
So maybe you can answer where Redress failed...

And this is different because ... ????

He did NOT fail. I see this tactic of yours used a lot. Merely go back and read his response.

But allow me to say this: Who I marry is not up for referendum and never ever should be. The majority should never decide what marriage is defined as for me. The majority should not be allowed to tell a church they cannot marry people of the same sex. But then again, we all know heterosexual marriage will end in being allowed to marry your dog and the plants. We probably should have never gone down that slippery slope.

:coffeepap

nota bene · Mar 13, 2012

roguenuke said:
No, I'm going by the definitions of oppression in the OP. By those definitions, homosexuals are being oppressed.

And here is an example of someone having the crap beat out of them for just being gay, not even talking about having sex with a same sex partner.

Bully's Brutal Assault of Gay Ohio High School Student Caught on Camera: VIDEO |Gay News|Gay Blog Towleroad

And people never get attacked for being gay here in the US, right?

History of violence against LGBT people in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you really think that if there is an atmosphere at the work that even suggests that talking about being gay would get someone fired, let alone beat and killed, that a gay person would do such a thing? There are definitely people who have been fired for being gay. I don't doubt that there are places where some gay people work where they most certainly fear that they might be in danger if they started revealing intimate details of their sex life. Some may feel that way for just revealing that they are gay.

So beyond this incident of high-school bullying, which has nothing to do with the adult workplace, please alert me to these pervasive instances of discrimination and abuse.

And so Ohio is a hotbed of discrimination against homosexuals? It's one of those "areas" where gays have to be fearful?

taxigirl · Mar 13, 2012

JohnWOlin said:
Ok so just a quick thought, after reading your article I feel like I am oppressed now. I went on Vine St. down Over the Rhine in Cincinnati, OH one time, was in the area went to Kroger, came out a bunch of black guys started heckling me, proceeded to jump me, then beat the **** out of me and took the $20 in my wallet. So yeah I am oppressed now. Thanks for clearing up the definition of oppression, since that isn't what is happening to me every day of my life like this article...

I don't understand what you are saying here.

Did they carve "Angry Magenta Guy" into your chest? (I'm assuming you are of the magenta color as the example you used said you were attacked by black guys). Have you been denied a promotion because you are an angry magenta guy? Have been thrown out of a restaurant because you kissed your angry magenta girl on the lips? Have you been pushed down on the ground after exiting your angry magenta guy bar?

roguenuke · Mar 13, 2012

nota bene said:
So beyond this incident of high-school bullying, which has nothing to do with the adult workplace, please alert me to these pervasive instances of discrimination and abuse.

And so Ohio is a hotbed of discrimination against homosexuals? It's one of those "areas" where gays have to be fearful?

There are "areas" all over the country. It isn't just one state or one county, here or there.

Really, why do you feel this need to be so defensive about how it really is for gays in the US? Very few here feel that gays have it extremely bad or would compare it to places like Iran or Uganda or Afghanistan. But, that doesn't change the fact that they do face serious discrimination and can fear for their lives here in the US in some places for just being gay. And they certainly do fit the definitions of oppressed in the OP.

We are Americans. We shouldn't be accepting any discrimination against any group, particularly legally sanctioned discrimination, just because they are believed to be "not normal" or "sinners" or "disgusting". Their sexuality and who they choose as their mate (consensually) causes no harm to anyone and so should not be legally prohibited.

katiegrrl0 · Mar 13, 2012

nota bene said:
So beyond this incident of high-school bullying, which has nothing to do with the adult workplace, please alert me to these pervasive instances of discrimination and abuse.

And so Ohio is a hotbed of discrimination against homosexuals? It's one of those "areas" where gays have to be fearful?

Hate crimes against gay, transgender people rise, report says
The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs report says violent crimes against people in the LGBT community rose 13% in 2010, and that minorities and transgender women were more likely to be targeted.
July 13, 2011|By Lee Romney, Los Angeles Times

An 18-year-old gay man from Texas allegedly slain by a high-school classmate who believed his friend was making advances toward him; a 31-year-old transgender woman from Pennsylvania found dead with a pillowcase around her head; and a 24-year-old lesbian from Florida purportedly killed by her girlfriend’s father, who disapproved of the relationship.

The homicides are a sampling of 2010 hate crimes against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people compiled by a national coalition of anti-hate organizations.

The report, released Tuesday, showed a 13% increase over 2009 in violent crimes committed against people because of their perceived or actual sexual orientation, gender identity or status as HIV positive, according to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Projects.

LGBT hate crimes: Violent crimes against gay, transgender people rise 13% - Los Angeles Times

Violence Against Gays and Lesbians

Overview
The Societal Context
Special Concerns for Victims
Programs to Reduce Anti-Gay/Lesbian Violence
Considerations for Victims

The National Center for Victims of Crime - Library/Document Viewer

Statistics say hate crimes are up.

LizardofOz · Mar 13, 2012

roguenuke said:
Being in the Navy, I have seen some people held back for being gay. That whole DADT thing that only just got repealed (officially) less than a year ago.

This is the issue. Some of you are acting like it is a horrible thing to point out that there is some oppression in the US against gays. It's not. The laws that make the oppression due to the government (adoption laws, marriage laws, etc.) need to be changed. But every group faces some oppression by someone, everywhere. Very few groups in the US have to fight so hard nowdays to end legal oppression that can seriously and demonstrably affect their lives. LGBT people are one of those groups.

I could get into a big spiel about being a straight white man and being oppressed. Like I said, to me not being able to marry, adoption laws is far from straight oppression. These are things that need to be changed for sure, but it isn't destroying their life, and bringing them down so far that they can't get anywhere in life.

nota bene · Mar 13, 2012

roguenuke said:
There are "areas" all over the country. It isn't just one state or one county, here or there.

Really, why do you feel this need to be so defensive about how it really is for gays in the US? Very few here feel that gays have it extremely bad or would compare it to places like Iran or Uganda or Afghanistan. But, that doesn't change the fact that they do face serious discrimination and can fear for their lives here in the US in some places for just being gay. And they certainly do fit the definitions of oppressed in the OP.

We are Americans. We shouldn't be accepting any discrimination against any group, particularly legally sanctioned discrimination, just because they are believed to be "not normal" or "sinners" or "disgusting". Their sexuality and who they choose as their mate (consensually) causes no harm to anyone and so should not be legally prohibited.

I'm not being defensive; I'm asking you to defend your claims, which you evidently cannot.

No need to preach to the choir either. Just back up your claims.

katiegrrl0 · Mar 13, 2012

JohnWOlin said:
Ok so just a quick thought, after reading your article I feel like I am oppressed now. I went on Vine St. down Over the Rhine in Cincinnati, OH one time, was in the area went to Kroger, came out a bunch of black guys started heckling me, proceeded to jump me, then beat the **** out of me and took the $20 in my wallet. So yeah I am oppressed now. Thanks for clearing up the definition of oppression, since that isn't what is happening to me every day of my life like this article...

Seems to me like you were a victim of robbery or a mugging. Had they not taken your cash you may have a point.

LizardofOz · Mar 13, 2012

taxigirl said:
I don't understand what you are saying here.

Did they carve "Angry Magenta Guy" into your chest? (I'm assuming you are of the magenta color as the example you used said you were attacked by black guys). Have you been denied a promotion because you are an angry magenta guy? Have been thrown out of a restaurant because you kissed your angry magenta girl on the lips? Have you been pushed down on the ground after exiting your angry magenta guy bar?

I dunno, have you been told you wouldn't do something because you are poor? Have you not been able to go somewhere because you are poor? These things had happened to me when I wasn't as well off and I still accomplished them. I'm not saying certain rights shouldn't be given to gay people as they should have the same rights we do, black people have the same rights we do of course, and they still face adversity, however I pause to actually call it full on oppression.

LizardofOz · Mar 13, 2012

katiegrrl0 said:
Seems to me like you were a victim of robbery or a mugging. Had they not taken your cash you may have a point.

Well I guess the old black lady getting in the hummer vs the white guy walking to the bus stop would have been the better target. They also probably wouldn't have called her racial slurs. Here is a kicker for you, ever heard of sexual prejudice being reversed?

Boo Radley · Mar 13, 2012

JohnWOlin said:
I could get into a big spiel about being a straight white man and being oppressed. Like I said, to me not being able to marry, adoption laws is far from straight oppression. These are things that need to be changed for sure, but it isn't destroying their life, and bringing them down so far that they can't get anywhere in life.

That's a rather large judgement. SOmeone wantiong to marry and not being allwoed to isn't a life atlering? Wanting children and not being allowed the same rights as others is not life atlering? Of course, it really doesn't stop there. People have been beaten to death, kick out of establishments, denied employment, and in genreal harrassed. Would you assume this has no effect?

This has been a tactic in recent years in trying to minimalize abuse because it has gotten better. It's fair to say things are better. It's honest to say that. But let's not go as far as you do because the truth doesn't support it.

roguenuke · Mar 13, 2012

JohnWOlin said:
I could get into a big spiel about being a straight white man and being oppressed. Like I said, to me not being able to marry, adoption laws is far from straight oppression. These are things that need to be changed for sure, but it isn't destroying their life, and bringing them down so far that they can't get anywhere in life.

So you are oppressed too. I have no problem with you saying that. Particularly using the OP's definition of oppression. I would say using the OP's definition, most everyone here has been oppressed at least once in their lifetime. At least from the second definition of oppression. And the first definition definitely fits many groups too that I personally would not go so far as to say they are oppressed.

But that is part of the point I am trying to make clear in this thread, which was started as some attempt to show that homosexuals weren't being oppressed and backfired because of the definitions used in the OP. Most people, in my belief, especially before this thread, would not have said "I think gays in the US are oppressed". Discriminated against and treated as second class citizens certainly, but not generally believed to be oppressed. But the OP's definitions are what shows that they could be easily viewed as being "oppressed", as can many other groups.

Having said that, homosexual and bisexual people face much more discrimination for that characteristic than heterosexual people do. It is much worse that some of that discrimination is legally set into law.

CriticalThought · Mar 13, 2012

nota bene said:
So beyond this incident of high-school bullying, which has nothing to do with the adult workplace, please alert me to these pervasive instances of discrimination and abuse.

And so Ohio is a hotbed of discrimination against homosexuals? It's one of those "areas" where gays have to be fearful?

There is this new thing called "google". Have you heard of it?

Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell Why One Year Ago Today Seaman August Provost Was Murdered | The New Civil Rights Movement

Victim Says Bloody Attack Was Hate Crime - Boston News Story - WCVB Boston

Carl Joseph Walker-Hoover Commits Suicide Over Anti-Gay Taunts

Friends, family honor murder victim LaTeisha Green | syracuse.com

Box Turtle Bulletin » School Bus Driver Charged In Anti-Gay Assault

Gay attack swept under the shrug - The Denver Post

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/02/us/02murder.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/23/us/23oxnard.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/us/18memphis.html

South Carolina Gay Man Dies in Potential Hate Crime Assault |Gay News|Gay Blog Towleroad

The Violent Death of Michael Sandy : NPR

Man, 18, sought after gun, hatchet attack at gay bar - CNN

LizardofOz · Mar 13, 2012

Boo Radley said:
That's a rather large judgement. SOmeone wantiong to marry and not being allwoed to isn't a life atlering? Wanting children and not being allowed the same rights as others is not life atlering? Of course, it really doesn't stop there. People have been beaten to death, kick out of establishments, denied employment, and in genreal harrassed. Would you assume this has no effect?

This has been a tactic in recent years in trying to minimalize abuse because it has gotten better. It's fair to say things are better. It's honest to say that. But let's not go as far as you do because the truth doesn't support it.

Lol but see here is the thing, for ever single instance that someone can give me a quote about a bunch of assholes treating one kind of person badly, I can give plenty more where no such thing has happened. I can understand what you all are saying sometimes, you get the **** end of the stick, but lets not all just think that it is one particular group getting the **** end of the stick all the time, because this happens to every race, religion, creed, sexual orientation, etc. That doesn't mean say, black people are oppressed, or muslims are oppressed, or white people, etc. If it happens that is horrible. Bullying in schools for example is a horrible thing, but it doesn't happen to every single child. It is something that needs to be dealt with but that doesn't mean that one or two bad seeds are oppressing the rest does it?

Boo Radley · Mar 13, 2012

JohnWOlin said:
Lol but see here is the thing, for ever single instance that someone can give me a quote about a bunch of assholes treating one kind of person badly, I can give plenty more where no such thing has happened. I can understand what you all are saying sometimes, you get the **** end of the stick, but lets not all just think that it is one particular group getting the **** end of the stick all the time, because this happens to every race, religion, creed, sexual orientation, etc. That doesn't mean say, black people are oppressed, or muslims are oppressed, or white people, etc. If it happens that is horrible. Bullying in schools for example is a horrible thing, but it doesn't happen to every single child. It is something that needs to be dealt with but that doesn't mean that one or two bad seeds are oppressing the rest does it?

So, because you can find any idiot on the internet, this gives you credence to ignore more valid studies and statistics. Well, that has been the pattern these days, sadly. However, ther eis a different for me the individual getting the short end juct because of a particular situation. it is another to single out a grooup of people who constantly get the short end, who can't marry, who are denied things you and I are not. I'm sorry, but your miminalizing that simply doesn't hold up to any kind of honest assessment.

CriticalThought · Mar 13, 2012

JohnWOlin said:
Lol but see here is the thing, for ever single instance that someone can give me a quote about a bunch of assholes treating one kind of person badly, I can give plenty more where no such thing has happened. I can understand what you all are saying sometimes, you get the **** end of the stick, but lets not all just think that it is one particular group getting the **** end of the stick all the time, because this happens to every race, religion, creed, sexual orientation, etc. That doesn't mean say, black people are oppressed, or muslims are oppressed, or white people, etc. If it happens that is horrible. Bullying in schools for example is a horrible thing, but it doesn't happen to every single child. It is something that needs to be dealt with but that doesn't mean that one or two bad seeds are oppressing the rest does it?

This semantic game you folks are playing with the concept of oppression is rather sad. Why do we even have the concept if you are going to treat it so arbitrarily? You could use your rationalizations for even the most historically oppressed groups.

Boo Radley · Mar 13, 2012

CriticalThought said:
This semantic game you folks are playing with the concept of oppression is rather sad. Why do we even have the concept if you are going to treat it so arbitrarily? You could use your rationalizations for even the most historically oppressed groups.

Because words only mean what we want them mean. This is the new world.

roguenuke · Mar 13, 2012

nota bene said:
I'm not being defensive; I'm asking you to defend your claims, which you evidently cannot.

No need to preach to the choir either. Just back up your claims.

What, that some people in the US fear for their lives to come out as gay? That others in the US are more than willing to beat someone, even to death, for just being gay? The fact that some people get killed and beaten for simply being gay should be enough proof that at least some gay people will fear coming out or talking about it and others will beat them for it.

I made no assertion that there were specific towns or states where coming out or talking about gay activities would automatically lead to a beating. But there certainly are places where doing so would. There is very little way to prove where such places are without being there and knowing the people personally. But such places are in the US.

Personal Stories - Fear of Coming Out « The LIKE ME® Organization The LIKE ME® Organization
Confessions of a Gutsy Gay Teen | Do Something
Coming Out at Work - The Pros and Cons of Coming Out at Work

LizardofOz · Mar 13, 2012

Let me just say this, I am not using semantics, the rest of you that believe there is some kind of hardcore gay oppression are. You want to see gay oppression? Look at Uganda. Look at Kenya. Look at nearly ANY African country. THAT is oppression. In those countries, even if the person doesn't make a big deal about their sexuality, they are found out stoned to death, etc. This isn't something that is punished by the governments in Africa often either, it simply happens. Not being able to get the same tax benefits and adopt a Chinese kid ISN'T oppression, it's just not fair.

A isolated even here and there which is incredibly bad and sad, where a person is hurt because of their sexual orientation, doesn't mean that everyone in the tri-state area of where that happened is getting oppressed. It simply means there are a bunch of ignorant people in one general area that targeted one guy, and they are punished according to law. I want to know where this seriously happens all the time. I have live in Ohio, Kentucky, South Carolina and hey every other guy I know might get called a slur from time to time but I'm pretty sure they are big enough that they don't give a **** because they are normally doing pretty good otherwise.

StillBallin75 · Mar 13, 2012

JohnWOlin said:
Let me just say this, I am not using semantics, the rest of you that believe there is some kind of hardcore gay oppression are. You want to see gay oppression? Look at Uganda. Look at Kenya. Look at nearly ANY African country. THAT is oppression. In those countries, even if the person doesn't make a big deal about their sexuality, they are found out stoned to death, etc. This isn't something that is punished by the governments in Africa often either, it simply happens. Not being able to get the same tax benefits and adopt a Chinese kid ISN'T oppression, it's just not fair.

A isolated even here and there which is incredibly bad and sad, where a person is hurt because of their sexual orientation, doesn't mean that everyone in the tri-state area of where that happened is getting oppressed. It simply means there are a bunch of ignorant people in one general area that targeted one guy, and they are punished according to law. I want to know where this seriously happens all the time. I have live in Ohio, Kentucky, South Carolina and hey every other guy I know might get called a slur from time to time but I'm pretty sure they are big enough that they don't give a **** because they are normally doing pretty good otherwise.

This very argument has been beaten like a dead horse throughout this whole damn thread at least fifty times now. Just because your life is not in danger does not mean you are not being oppressed.

I'll refer everyone to this post once again:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/120976-homosexuals-oppressed-22.html#post1060285338

Omgitsme · Mar 13, 2012

JohnWOlin said:
Well I guess the old black lady getting in the hummer vs the white guy walking to the bus stop would have been the better target. They also probably wouldn't have called her racial slurs. Here is a kicker for you, ever heard of sexual prejudice being reversed?

You left out the part with racial slurs originally. However that is a very isolated indecent that doesnt happen nearly as often as violence against the LGBT community.

Boo Radley · Mar 13, 2012

JohnWOlin said:
Let me just say this, I am not using semantics, the rest of you that believe there is some kind of hardcore gay oppression are. You want to see gay oppression? Look at Uganda. Look at Kenya. Look at nearly ANY African country. THAT is oppression. In those countries, even if the person doesn't make a big deal about their sexuality, they are found out stoned to death, etc. This isn't something that is punished by the governments in Africa often either, it simply happens. Not being able to get the same tax benefits and adopt a Chinese kid ISN'T oppression, it's just not fair.

A isolated even here and there which is incredibly bad and sad, where a person is hurt because of their sexual orientation, doesn't mean that everyone in the tri-state area of where that happened is getting oppressed. It simply means there are a bunch of ignorant people in one general area that targeted one guy, and they are punished according to law. I want to know where this seriously happens all the time. I have live in Ohio, Kentucky, South Carolina and hey every other guy I know might get called a slur from time to time but I'm pretty sure they are big enough that they don't give a **** because they are normally doing pretty good otherwise.

Why are you using words like hard core. You're trying to make a distinction no one else is making. There are levels of opprerssion, and it doesn't have to reach grandiose proportions before we can recognize it for what it is. Everyone doesn't have to be involved for the problem to be real. The fact is that enough people are involved that they count, and things like marriage are imbedded in the system, with large numbers voting against it. This is an oppressive act. You cannot honestly minimalize this to the point of everyday smack talk. I'm sorry, but that doesn't hold up.

CriticalThought · Mar 13, 2012

JohnWOlin said:
Let me just say this, I am not using semantics, the rest of you that believe there is some kind of hardcore gay oppression are. You want to see gay oppression? Look at Uganda. Look at Kenya. Look at nearly ANY African country. THAT is oppression. In those countries, even if the person doesn't make a big deal about their sexuality, they are found out stoned to death, etc. This isn't something that is punished by the governments in Africa often either, it simply happens. Not being able to get the same tax benefits and adopt a Chinese kid ISN'T oppression, it's just not fair.

A isolated even here and there which is incredibly bad and sad, where a person is hurt because of their sexual orientation, doesn't mean that everyone in the tri-state area of where that happened is getting oppressed. It simply means there are a bunch of ignorant people in one general area that targeted one guy, and they are punished according to law. I want to know where this seriously happens all the time. I have live in Ohio, Kentucky, South Carolina and hey every other guy I know might get called a slur from time to time but I'm pretty sure they are big enough that they don't give a **** because they are normally doing pretty good otherwise.

Gays do not experience the same degree of institutionalized oppression as they do in many African countries. That, however, does not mean they are not oppressed. Many groups have used the government to enforce polices against gays and lesbians. Those policies include same sex marriage bans and adoption restrictions. The government has also, in many cases, not extended protections established for other minority groups such as employment and housing discrimination protections.

LizardofOz · Mar 13, 2012

Omgitsme said:
You left out the part with racial slurs originally. However that is a very isolated indecent that doesnt happen nearly as often as violence against the LGBT community.

I'm sorry if my sarcasm didn't show in my post. I was being sarcastic with the post. I don't see it as being oppressed.

Are Homosexuals Oppressed?

Are Homosexuals oppressed in America?

Yes, homosexuals are oppressed in America.

No, homosexuals are not oppressed in America

I don't know

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