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Death Penalty

Should there be a death penalty?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 47.0%

  • No

    Votes: 45 38.5%

  • Under certain circumstances, please explain

    Votes: 17 14.5%
  • Total voters
    117
Kal'Stang said:
Love the sarcastic "Okie Dokie artichokie" bit. I've already shown that I was not afraid of going to jail as I've already been there and found it easy. As such it was no deterence in my decision to not go after the guy. So since you believe that you know what I think and how I think perhaps you can tell me exactly why I decided to not go after the guy.
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Well....I've got some good news for ya Stang.......see...all your frettin about getting the death penalty was all for naught. The imposition of the death penalty in most states requires that IN ADDITION to being convicted of First Degree premeditated and deliberate murder that there be a SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCE in the case, such as multiple murders, murder for financial gain, murder by poison, lying in wait, etc. There probably would not be such in your situation....plus....killing someone who molested a child would likely be found to be a "heat of passion" killing which reduces murder to manslaughter...and in the worst case you likely would have gotten no worse than second degree...so see.....all that worrying you did about getting the death penalty that caused you to rethink your plan was a whole lot of worrying about nothin.
 
disneydude said:
Well....I've got some good news for ya Stang.......see...all your frettin about getting the death penalty was all for naught. The imposition of the death penalty in most states requires that IN ADDITION to being convicted of First Degree premeditated and deliberate murder that there be a SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCE in the case, such as multiple murders, murder for financial gain, murder by poison, lying in wait, etc. There probably would not be such in your situation....plus....killing someone who molested a child would likely be found to be a "heat of passion" killing which reduces murder to manslaughter...and in the worst case you likely would have gotten no worse than second degree...so see.....all that worrying you did about getting the death penalty that caused you to rethink your plan was a whole lot of worrying about nothin.
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Not to blow your bubble disney, as I am disagreeing with Stang as well, but I am honest....
The DP does not always require premeditation. Felony murder, which is murder committed during the commission of a felony is a common factor as are sexual assault + murder, treason, train wreck, murder + kidnapping, killing an LEO, etc...
Please see: (page 5) USDOJ Report

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cp10st.pdf

You are correct regarding the "heat of passion" as long as there has not been a cooling off period. If he came across someone molesting child, then yes, passion, if they found out about it, reported the crime etc.. then went and committed the murder probably not.
 
taxigirl said:
Not to blow your bubble disney, as I am disagreeing with Stang as well, but I am honest....
The DP does not always require premeditation. Felony murder, which is murder committed during the commission of a felony is a common factor as are sexual assault + murder, treason, train wreck, murder + kidnapping, killing an LEO, etc...
Please see: (page 5) USDOJ Report

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cp10st.pdf

You are correct regarding the "heat of passion" as long as there has not been a cooling off period. If he came across someone molesting child, then yes, passion, if they found out about it, reported the crime etc.. then went and committed the murder probably not.
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Most states do not recognize "felony murder" as a "special circumstance"...you are correct though, there are a handful that do. Also....heat of passion does not require the person to "walk in" for instance on the abuse. Heat of passion can carry over for months or even years. True...the closer to the actual crime the better, but it is not required. A jury can find the killing was done in the heat of passion, even if the perpetrating event occurred in the past.

BTW....some of the examples you referred to are not felony murder...they are enumerated special circumstances such as "killing of a police office", "Train wreck"....
 
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disneydude said:
Most states do not recognize "felony murder" as a "special circumstance"...you are correct though, there are a handful that do. Also....heat of passion does not require the person to "walk in" for instance on the abuse. Heat of passion can carry over for months or even years. True...the closer to the actual crime the better, but it is not required. A jury can find the killing was done in the heat of passion, even if the perpetrating event occurred in the past.

BTW....some of the examples you referred to are not felony murder...they are enumerated special circumstances such as "killing of a police office", "Train wreck"....
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Correct. I said "AS ARE" meaning also. Did you check the DOJ report? It breaks it down by state and mentions special circumstances which are different than offenses as in the CA statute where causing death by trainwreck is reason for consideration for the Dp.
 
The last of 4, maybe 5, victims in the French school shooting

Toulouse shooting: heartbreaking detail of attack that shocked France and Israel - Telegraph

The chilling images show how the lone gunman wearing a motorcycle helmet callously Hunted down individual Children after opening fire at the school gates in an attack that left four dead and a teenager fighting for his life.

Eight-year-old Myriam Monsonego clutched her satchel as the killer chased her through the school gates and into the courtyard. He pulled her towards him by her hair and raised a gun to shoot her.

The video footage appears to show that, at that moment, his gun jammed.

But determined to carry out his killing spree, he kept hold of the girl, changed weapons from what police identified as a 9-mm pistol to a .45 calibre weapon, and delivered a shot to her temple at point blank range.

He then turned, calmly walked out the school gates, mounted a powerful Yamaha scooter and sped away.
[........]
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France has No death penalty.
 
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Disney, What you seem to be forgetting is that I would not just murder that guy. As I said earlier, I would torture him also. For as long as I could. That combined with the murder would most definitely get me the DP. And it is most definitely pre-meditated and I would admit it as such. I may be alot of things but I pride myself on being honest. Even when I got caught for the two felonies that I committed I admitted it to the police when questioned and pleaded guilty in court.
 
taxigirl said:
You cannot prove a negative.
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Actually having thought about it....is it a negative? Can't questionaires be sent out and asked about it? Those questionaire's are sent out for lots of things and are valid ways of forming statistics so.....why aren't those questionaire's being sent out?
 
Kal'Stang said:
Actually having thought about it....is it a negative? Can't questionaires be sent out and asked about it? Those questionaire's are sent out for lots of things and are valid ways of forming statistics so.....why aren't those questionaire's being sent out?
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That would be like sending me a questionnaire to ask if I have always paid my taxes. :mrgreen:
 
Kal'Stang said:
Disney, What you seem to be forgetting is that I would not just murder that guy. As I said earlier, I would torture him also. For as long as I could. That combined with the murder would most definitely get me the DP. And it is most definitely pre-meditated and I would admit it as such. I may be alot of things but I pride myself on being honest. Even when I got caught for the two felonies that I committed I admitted it to the police when questioned and pleaded guilty in court.
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Sorry....still ain't buying it. If you "anger" was as strong as you claim that you would torture him for as long as you could, you wouldn't sit and think rationally and let the DP dissuade you. Sorry...that boat doesn't float.
 
disneydude said:
Sorry....still ain't buying it. If you "anger" was as strong as you claim that you would torture him for as long as you could, you wouldn't sit and think rationally and let the DP dissuade you. Sorry...that boat doesn't float.
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Everybody gets really angry and doesn't react due to thinking. Be serious for a minute. You have never gotten so angry that you wanted to throw your cell phone at the wall or anthing and didn't because you realized that you would only have to buy a new phone? I am not an angry person in the slightest and I have gotten that angry once or twice. I would say that his boat is not only floating... it has wings and is geting ready for lift off.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Everybody gets really angry and doesn't react due to thinking. Be serious for a minute. You have never gotten so angry that you wanted to throw your cell phone at the wall or anthing and didn't because you realized that you would only have to buy a new phone? I am not an angry person in the slightest and I have gotten that angry once or twice. I would say that his boat is not only floating... it has wings and is geting ready for lift off.
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Throwing your cell phone at the wall and torturing people are extremely different...not even in the same ballpark.
 
Mensch said:
Throwing your cell phone at the wall and torturing people are extremely different...not even in the same ballpark.
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Obviously... and that is not the point. Anger is.
 
Mensch said:
No, the point is self-control.

And maybe mental issues.
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Right...Self control when angry. Anger. Anger and the ability to control it. People who get, and are, angry can control it and Disney's argument that you can't is hog wash.
 
Yes if someone cuts a little girls head off then rapes their dead body they should be killed with sufficient evidence, but if its a one time deal give them like 20-40 years.
 
I would almost be willing to countenance the death penalty, if only trials were in fact always accurate determinants of guilt. DNA evidence would have to be presented. Everyone would have the same, competent defense opportunity, instead of the lower class all too often being given a public defender that has a dozen other cases. Sometimes the lawyers were even caught falling asleep during trial. Black defendants are also far more likely to be given the death sentence in murder trials that convicted white defendants. I think all too often death penalty proponents lose sight of the fact that life in prison is in fact a punishment, it's not like they get to just go shopping the next day.

Look at why Illinois rid itself of executions. There was a massive amount of forced confessions by interrogators, and the thing is, once someone is executed it's too late to do the right thing. Does anyone really think innocent people have not been executed? On top of all that, looking on a map it seems like the entire civilized democratic world except the US is banning the death penalty or already has. While I sympathize with the victims, there is something inherently contradictory about murder being wrong but then the government setting about to kill captives who are at that point completely at its mercy. The amount of bloodlust exhibited by death penalty supporters and even some posters here with comments like appeals being "idiotic legal wrangling" is disturbing.
 
Navy Pride said:
If there is any doubt that the person is guilty then they should not be executed...that goes without saying.....With the arrival of DNA testing the chance of a person who is not guilty getting executed is very small. No system is infallible..If one innocent person is executed out of 1000 its something you live with. Whether you lefties like it or not the death penalty is a deterrent.
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Completely disagree that it is a deterrent. Deterrent of others, not the lame "they won't kill again" sound bite.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Right...Self control when angry. Anger. Anger and the ability to control it. People who get, and are, angry can control it and Disney's argument that you can't is hog wash.
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We all feel anger at times. However, we're not all like Kal'Strang who feels the temptation to torture and murder people because he's angry.
 
wolv67 said:
I
Look at why Illinois rid itself of executions. There was a massive amount of forced confessions by interrogators
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Would you please provide a link/source for this?
 
radcen said:
Completely disagree that it is a deterrent. Deterrent of others, not the lame "they won't kill again" sound bite.
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One thing you gotta say no matter how you feel about this scum is it sure as hell deters the guy that might have raped and murdered your wife or sister...........He is dead........he will never do it again........he is deterred........

On another note there have actually been cases of criminals moving to states that don't have the death penalty to rape and murder your wife or mother.....They know they can only get life and some Liberal judge down the road will let them out to rape and murder someone elses wife or mother.................think about it.......
 
wolv67 said:
I would almost be willing to countenance the death penalty, if only trials were in fact always accurate determinants of guilt. DNA evidence would have to be presented. Everyone would have the same, competent defense opportunity, instead of the lower class all too often being given a public defender that has a dozen other cases. Sometimes the lawyers were even caught falling asleep during trial. Black defendants are also far more likely to be given the death sentence in murder trials that convicted white defendants. I think all too often death penalty proponents lose sight of the fact that life in prison is in fact a punishment, it's not like they get to just go shopping the next day.

Look at why Illinois rid itself of executions. There was a massive amount of forced confessions by interrogators, and the thing is, once someone is executed it's too late to do the right thing. Does anyone really think innocent people have not been executed? On top of all that, looking on a map it seems like the entire civilized democratic world except the US is banning the death penalty or already has. While I sympathize with the victims, there is something inherently contradictory about murder being wrong but then the government setting about to kill captives who are at that point completely at its mercy. The amount of bloodlust exhibited by death penalty supporters and even some posters here with comments like appeals being "idiotic legal wrangling" is disturbing.
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Nobody should be given the death penalty unless they have been proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt that goes without say........

The reason why blacks are executed more often is simple.......They commit more capital crimes then whites do.......
 
chris126 said:
Yes if someone cuts a little girls head off then rapes their dead body they should be killed with sufficient evidence, but if its a one time deal give them like 20-40 years.
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well yes, naturally. whom among us hasn't, at one point, had a little too much to drink and brutally murdered and raped a child?



:roll:
 
Bodhisattva said:
Right...Self control when angry. Anger. Anger and the ability to control it. People who get, and are, angry can control it and Disney's argument that you can't is hog wash.
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that is precisely correct. anger can indeed by controlled.
 
Mensch said:
We all feel anger at times. However, we're not all like Kal'Strang who feels the temptation to torture and murder people because he's angry.
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That is a different argument. His is that angry people can't have self-control. He is wrong. He has also disappeared.

If it was legal and somebody killed my daughter I would kill that person. It has nothing to do with anger. I think that anybody that murders should be killed as a simple consequence to that action and I would have no problem being the one to kill them. I would not torture them simply because it would gross me out. I would have no problem letting another torture them and then I kill them. Again, it has nothing to do with anger. I think that if people knew that they would be tortured to death in the same manner that they did it to others they might not do it. Not always... but at least some. I don't see Kal as being angry in the slightest.
 
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