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Can the President veto or repeal a law?

Can the President veto or repeal a law?

  • Yes, he can!

    Votes: 6 46.2%
  • No, only Congress has these enumerated powers

    Votes: 7 53.8%

  • Total voters
    13
  • Poll closed .
Without getting into it, I'll just remind you that the reason the court found the power to declare a law unconstitutional was the oath the judges took to uphold the Constitution, which is the same oath the President and Congress members take.

Actually, I suspect you're not getting into it because you don't really have a grasp on it -- that's not "the reason" they found anything.

But given that you thought Madison was President at the time (you know you did), a shaky understanding of the case isn't surprising.
 
Actually, I suspect you're not getting into it because you don't really have a grasp on it -- that's not "the reason" they found anything.

Yes, it is. It's the one relevant to this discussion at least.

But given that you thought Madison was President at the time (you know you did), a shaky understanding of the case isn't surprising.

I most certainly did not think Madison was president at the time.
 
Just part of the lengthy discussion about this issue in Marbury:
The judicial power of the United States is extended to all cases arising under the constitution. Could it be the intention of those who gave this power, to say that, in using it, the constitution should not be looked into? That a case arising under the constitution should be decided without examining the instrument under which it arises? This is too extravagant to be maintained.

In some cases then, the constitution must be looked into by the judges. And if they can open it at all, what part of it are they forbidden to read, or to obey? There are many other parts of the constitution which serve to illustrate this subject. It is declared that "no tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any state." Suppose a duty on the export of cotton, of tobacco, or of flour; and a suit instituted to recover it. Ought judgment to be rendered in such a case? ought the judges to close their eyes on the constitution, and only see the law. The constitution declares that "no bill of attainder or ex post facto law shall be passed."
If, however, such a bill should be passed and a person should be prosecuted under it; must the court condemn to death those victims whom the constitution endeavors to preserve?

Why otherwise does it direct the judges to take an oath to support it? This oath certainly applies, in an especial manner, to their conduct in their official character. How immoral to impose it on them, if they were to be used as the instruments, and the knowing instruments, for violating what they swear to support!

The oath of office, too, imposed by the legislature, is completely demonstrative of the legislative opinion on the subject. It is in these words, "I do solemnly swear that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich; and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge all the duties incumbent on me as according to the best of my abilities and understanding, agreeably to the constitution, and laws of the United States."

Why does a judge swear to discharge his duties agreeably to the constitution of the United States, if that constitution forms no rule for his government? if it is closed upon him, and cannot be inspected by him?

If such be the real state of things, this is worse than solemn mockery. To prescribe, or to take this oath, becomes equally a crime.

Thus, the particular phraseology of the constitution of the United States confirms and strengthens the principle, supposed to be essential to all written constitutions, that a law repugnant to the constitution is void; and that courts, as well as other departments, are bound by that instrument.

Note two things - the discussion of the oath, and the bolded part at the end.
 
I have not seen (and could not find) where Romney or Gingrich... or anyone else for that matter said that they would unilatterally repeal Obamacare on Day 1. If you can find it I'd love to see it. What I found was this:

Gingrich on Inauguration Day: Repeal Obamacare, Sarbanes-Oxley, Dodd-Frank - Ken Walsh's Washington (usnews.com)

What Gingrich said here was that conservatives should concentrate on the taking congressional seats away from the Democrats in November, and that the new GOP majority should draft and pass the bill prior to Inauguration Day and have it ready for him to sign just as soon as he was sworn in.

I also saw where Romney said he would issue waivers to the 50 states on the first day... again, could not find where he claimed he would unilatterally repeal it.

However, while we are talking about the Executive Branch repealing laws, how about discussion on the Executive Branch unilatterally MAKING laws in the absence of congressional approval and CHANGING laws already passed by Congress, which is almost the same thing as repeal, right?

Regulatory: President Obama shifts to unilateral executive action

President Obama on Ensuring Fair Pay for In-Home Care Workers | The White House

Just a couple of examples of how the current President has bypassed Congress to make and to change laws.

Romney:



\
 
It would be funny to watch him try.

There are so many people benefiting from the law already, with the pre-existing conditions thing taken care of. And many who have no coverage will soon get it. How many people are there who will be mandated to buy coverage (or get it for free) who don't actually want it? Not many, probably.

I have a very close friend who has no insurance, and is pissed about Obamacare. She doesn't like the idea of being fined for not having insurance.
 


Newt asks for bills to be ready.

*can't post more than one video???*

**I didn't see that anyone answered your request. If they did, my apologies.*
 
Yes, it is. It's the one relevant to this discussion at least.

Then I'm going to have to ask you to show it.

Show, too, that they ruled the President may ("should," even) disregard laws they find unconstitutional.


I most certainly did not think Madison was president at the time.

Right.
 
I have a very close friend who has no insurance, and is pissed about Obamacare. She doesn't like the idea of being fined for not having insurance.

If she doesn't like the idea in principle, that's one thing.

If she's just being a freeloader, I have no sympathy for her.
 
If she doesn't like the idea in principle, that's one thing.

If she's just being a freeloader, I have no sympathy for her.

Is this suppose to be a rebuttle? Hahahahahah
 
Then I'm going to have to ask you to show it.

Just did. See post above.

Show, too, that they ruled the President may ("should," even) disregard laws they find unconstitutional.

Didn't say that. They didn't rule that.


Please don't play this game. I don't treat you like that. If you're going to do that, this conversation is over.
 
Just did. See post above.

I didn't say they didn't mention it. They didn't rule based on it.


Didn't say that. They didn't rule that.

Yes, you did:

Which was the issue in Marbury v. Madison - which not only established judicial review, but also, remember, ruled that the executive branch need not follow a law it also believed was unconstitutional!
 
So to bring this full circle, the executive branch can ignore enforcement of laws based on its opinion.
 
I didn't say they didn't mention it. They didn't rule based on it.

They DID rule that the JUDICIARY could declare laws unconstitutional, and the reason was that judges take an oath.

They DID NOT rule that presidents have the same power because of the oath. I am the one saying that (though other sources support me).

Yes, you did:

"Which was the issue in Marbury v. Madison - which not only established judicial review, but also, remember, ruled that the executive branch need not follow a law it also believed was unconstitutional!"

Note that the term "executive branch" means both the President and his officers, such as the Secretary of State.
 
Which brings the entire conversation back to the opening question: "Can the President veto/repal a law?"

Not directly, but they can issue a statement that "its unconstitutional, therefore I'm not going to enforce it", which in the end means its not a law.
 
Which brings the entire conversation back to the opening question: "Can the President veto/repal a law?"

Not directly, but they can issue a statement that "its unconstitutional, therefore I'm not going to enforce it", which in the end means its not a law.

Well, it's still a law, and it might still be enforced. The President isn't the only person who enforces laws. And, of course, the whole mess would end up in court, and the courts would decide anyway.
 
Well, it's still a law, and it might still be enforced. The President isn't the only person who enforces laws. And, of course, the whole mess would end up in court, and the courts would decide anyway.

Only the federal government can enforce federal law, as evidenced by the administrations argument against individual states enforcing immigration law.

So, yes, if the federal government doesn't enforce the law, then its as good as toilet paper.

Has the lack of enforcement of a federal law ever been challenged, or challenged successfully, in the courts?
 
They DID rule that the JUDICIARY could declare laws unconstitutional, and the reason was that judges take an oath.

Dude.

No, they didn't.

They said judicial review was part of the judicial power. They didn't the say the oath gave them that power. They said -- in dicta -- that the oath wouldn't make sense if they didn't have the power. They didn't say that the oath was the reason they had the power.


They DID NOT rule that presidents have the same power because of the oath. I am the one saying that (though other sources support me).

I never said they did.


Note that the term "executive branch" means both the President and his officers, such as the Secretary of State.

So what? You've confused yourself. Go back and read my posts.

Insofar as you may be trying to argue that you never said they ruled the President may disregard laws, but "the executive branch" -- the only way you save yourself if you're arguing that the President isn't part of the executive branch. But you precluded yourself from that, specifically, right here in what I quoted.

You said they ruled something they didn't rule. Plain as that.
 
Only the federal government can enforce federal law, as evidenced by the administrations argument against individual states enforcing immigration law.

So, yes, if the federal government doesn't enforce the law, then its as good as toilet paper.

The President isn't "the federal government" though. Depending on the law, there might be independent agencies, federal courts, etc. that could act even if the President came out and ordered all enforcement of this law to cease.

Has the lack of enforcement of a federal law ever been challenged, or challenged successfully, in the courts?

Well, you're the one who brought up the writ of mandamus....
 
The President isn't "the federal government" though. Depending on the law, there might be independent agencies, federal courts, etc. that could act even if the President came out and ordered all enforcement of this law to cease.

Well, you're the one who brought up the writ of mandamus....


For the context of the health insurance law, the agencies who would police it( IRS & HHS ) aren't independent.

And no, I did not bring up writ of mandamus.
 
Dude.

No, they didn't.

They said judicial review was part of the judicial power. They didn't the say the oath gave them that power. They said -- in dicta -- that the oath wouldn't make sense if they didn't have the power. They didn't say that the oath was the reason they had the power.

Dude. The point is not the oath itself, but the fact that they are officers of government sworn to uphold the Constitution.

I never said they did.

I know - you said I said they did. I agree they didn't.

So what? You've confused yourself. Go back and read my posts.

No. This is about you accusing me of something and calling me a liar when I said otherwise. I'm done with that.

Insofar as you may be trying to argue that you never said they ruled the President may disregard laws, but "the executive branch" -- the only way you save yourself if you're arguing that the President isn't part of the executive branch. But you precluded yourself from that, specifically, right here in what I quoted.

Wow, look at who is confused.

I never said they actually ruled this. I said the implication was there.

You said they ruled something they didn't rule. Plain as that.

Nope. But this is about what I think, not what you thought I think. I'm telling you right now what I think, despite any words of mine that may have confused you in the past. I am not a politician and you are not playing a gotcha game. If you are, I'm not interested.
 
For the context of the health insurance law, the agencies who would police it( IRS & HHS ) aren't independent.

I was speaking in general terms, in response to a general proposition.

And no, I did not bring up writ of mandamus.

Whoops, sorry.
 
Dude. The point is not the oath itself, but the fact that they are officers of government sworn to uphold the Constitution.

You are changing what you said:

Without getting into it, I'll just remind you that the reason the court found the power to declare a law unconstitutional was the oath the judges took to uphold the Constitution, which is the same oath the President and Congress members take.

And you doubled down on it, too.

Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
Actually, I suspect you're not getting into it because you don't really have a grasp on it -- that's not "the reason" they found anything.
Yes, it is. It's the one relevant to this discussion at least.


No. This is about you accusing me of something and calling me a liar when I said otherwise. I'm done with that.

Then stop pretending you didn't say things you said.

Like here:

Wow, look at who is confused.

I never said they actually ruled this. I said the implication was there.

When you said:

Which was the issue in Marbury v. Madison - which not only established judicial review, but also, remember, ruled that the executive branch need not follow a law it also believed was unconstitutional!



Nope. But this is about what I think, not what you thought I think. I'm telling you right now what I think, despite any words of mine that may have confused you in the past. I am not a politician and you are not playing a gotcha game. If you are, I'm not interested.

Apparently you aren't interested in having your own words quoted back to you.

I understand that you can't actually support any of it, but at least cop to saying it. I really don't know who you think you're fooling. If you didn't mean to say what you said, that's your own fault of communication, not mine. But said, it, you did.

If you actually claim that you didn't, then indeed, you are a liar.
 
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Not playing these games with you. I'm not interested.
 
I believe so. But doesnt it go back to congress then and takes 2/3 vote to repeal it?
 
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