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Where you stand on abortion in relation to women?

Poll on where you stand on abortion in relation to women

  • I favor forcing women to have children against her wishes.

    Votes: 9 18.0%
  • I oppose forcing women to have children against her wishes.

    Votes: 34 68.0%
  • IDK/Other

    Votes: 7 14.0%

  • Total voters
    50
You're the only person in the world claiming criminal charges or a trial are involved.

It's a clerk who looks at paperwork. That's it. That's the "investigation". You're stressing about 1 pencil-pusher taking about an hour to look at a few forms. It's beyond trivial.

Then don't you realize that such lax investigations will inevitably lead to a rise in private in-home miscarriages (if abortion is federally banned)? As I said, the only way to ensure women won't abort their pregnancies is to monitor them for nine months and ensure any end to a pregnancy wasn't criminally induced. The only way to do that is to severely intrude on the personal rights of every pregnant woman to ensure illegal abortions remain close to zero. Otherwise, if you maintain the standards NY has, back-alley abortions will rise and you will simply look the other way.
 
Then don't you realize that such lax investigations will inevitably lead to a rise in private in-home miscarriages (if abortion is federally banned)? As I said, the only way to ensure women won't abort their pregnancies is to monitor them for nine months and ensure any end to a pregnancy wasn't criminally induced. The only way to do that is to severely intrude on the personal rights of every pregnant woman to ensure illegal abortions remain close to zero. Otherwise, if you maintain the standards NY has, back-alley abortions will rise and you will simply look the other way.
Wasn't abortion illegal in the USA for a long time? Did the aurthorities monitor every pregnancy for nine months then?

.
 
Wasn't abortion illegal in the USA for a long time? Did the aurthorities monitor every pregnancy for nine months then?

.

Not that I'm aware of. But there were many highly publicized cases of unsafe abortions. Virtually half of all abortions worldwide are illegal, unsafe abortions. According to Wikipedia, one in eight pregnancy-related deaths worldwide are a result of an unsafe abortion. In the future case of banning abortion, the public is likely to face two scenarios. Either a rise in unsafe abortions and abortion-related deaths will take place and nothing will be done about it, or the public will demand something be done about it. If the public demands congressional action, laws will likely be passed that further intrude on a woman's personal freedom.

As for the miscarriage argument, I'm looking at it as if it were me. If I was a pregnant woman in a country that banned abortion and I was still intent to have the abortion in the privacy of my home, I would do so illegally and claim it was a miscarriage. A miscarriage is not illegal but without proper oversight and investigation, it can be deceptively used as a ploy to evade abortion-related criminal charges.
 
Then don't you realize that such lax investigations will inevitably lead to a rise in private in-home miscarriages (if abortion is federally banned)? As I said, the only way to ensure women won't abort their pregnancies is to monitor them for nine months and ensure any end to a pregnancy wasn't criminally induced. The only way to do that is to severely intrude on the personal rights of every pregnant woman to ensure illegal abortions remain close to zero. Otherwise, if you maintain the standards NY has, back-alley abortions will rise and you will simply look the other way.

Reality like your message brings up usually is just disregarded. But you're right on point.
 
Not that I'm aware of. But there were many highly publicized cases of unsafe abortions. Virtually half of all abortions worldwide are illegal, unsafe abortions. According to Wikipedia, one in eight pregnancy-related deaths worldwide are a result of an unsafe abortion. In the future case of banning abortion, the public is likely to face two scenarios. Either a rise in unsafe abortions and abortion-related deaths will take place and nothing will be done about it, or the public will demand something be done about it. If the public demands congressional action, laws will likely be passed that further intrude on a woman's personal freedom.

As for the miscarriage argument, I'm looking at it as if it were me. If I was a pregnant woman in a country that banned abortion and I was still intent to have the abortion in the privacy of my home, I would do so illegally and claim it was a miscarriage. A miscarriage is not illegal but without proper oversight and investigation, it can be deceptively used as a ploy to evade abortion-related criminal charges.

Women, particularly young girls and teens, will go to extreme lengths to cause a miscarriage. They will try to cause physical trauma to their stomach area, take all manner of chemicals and drugs, and put all sorts of objects and chemicals up inside. This can and does result in those girl's deaths, severe permanent injuries and sterility. Over 70,000 women a year die and literally millions are disabled, crippled and left sterile by prohibited and self abortions. This also often can lead to a severely physically or mentally damaged premie, such damage caused the the attempts at illegal or self-done abortion attempts.

However, many pro-lifers (not all) on this forum openly state they do not care if that happens or even if a woman - meaning including their 13 year old daughter - dies doing so.

Outlawing abortion also makes it impossible for a pregnant teen or woman to be able to speak to ANYONE about her situation even she even 1% is considering abortion, thus leaving her - whether 12 years old or 45 years old - totally isolated and thus more likely to abortion illegally or in self attempts and more likely to suicide, unable to talk to anyone about it fearing entrapment and criminal prosecution.

The world of outlawing abortions was and would again become a very dark, desperate, violent and ugly world, for which studies show abortion rates - illegal - actually increase as does miscarriages and infant mortalities given that doctors now aren't doctors, they are cops and police investigators, professional witnesses against their patients and pre-natal care inherently later risking prison even if not aborting.

That is now being pursued, using doctors records for miscarriages (again poor single black mothers) to see if some case can be made that she did anything that harmed the viability of her fetus or may be blamed for any post death infant death - to see if they can then send her to prison for decades. Black women now have been sentenced to years is prison, including because a child died some time after birth and her record showed that previously she had been arrested for illegal drug use.

Thus, since that MAY have somehow contributed to her child's death (she has other children), was found guilty of causing her child's death and sent to prison, her children put in foster care of the state. Hopefully that state can cure those children of blackness.

For those pro-lifers cheering their self righteous godliness in a contest of which of them would more restrict and punish pregnant young teens, they are actually imposing such punishments on their own daughters and granddaughters.
 
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Women, particularly young girls and teens, will go to extreme lengths to cause a miscarriage. They will try to cause physical trauma to their stomach area, take all manner of chemicals and drugs, and put all sorts of objects and chemicals up inside. This can and does result in those girl's deaths, severe permanent injuries and sterility. Over 70,000 women a year die and literally millions are disabled, crippled and left sterile by prohibited and self abortions. This also often can lead to a severely physically or mentally damaged premie, such damage caused the the attempts at illegal or self-done abortion attempts.

However, many pro-lifers (not all) on this forum openly state they do not care if that happens or even if a woman - meaning including their 13 year old daughter - dies doing so.

Outlawing abortion also makes it impossible for a pregnant teen or woman to be able to speak to ANYONE about her situation even she even 1% is considering abortion, thus leaving her - whether 12 years old or 45 years old - totally isolated and thus more likely to abortion illegally or in self attempts and more likely to suicide, unable to talk to anyone about it fearing entrapment and criminal prosecution.

The world of outlawing abortions was and would again become a very dark, desperate, violent and ugly world, for which studies show abortion rates - illegal - actually increase as does miscarriages and infant mortalities given that doctors now aren't doctors, they are cops and police investigators, professional witnesses against their patients and pre-natal care inherently later risking prison even if not aborting.

That is now being pursued, using doctors records for miscarriages (again poor single black mothers) to see if some case can be made that she did anything that harmed the viability of her fetus or may be blamed for any post death infant death - to see if they can then send her to prison for decades. Black women now have been sentenced to years is prison, including because a child died some time after birth and her record showed that previously she had been arrested for illegal drug use.

Thus, since that MAY have somehow contributed to her child's death (she has other children), was found guilty of causing her child's death and sent to prison, her children put in foster care of the state. Hopefully that state can cure those children of blackness.

For those pro-lifers cheering their self righteous godliness in a contest of which of them would more restrict and punish pregnant young teens, they are actually imposing such punishments on their own daughters and granddaughters.

This is also the reason why I oppose parental consent for an abortion. It inevitably leads young teens to do terrible things to avoid embarrassment and punishment.

The hypocrisy of the religious right is outstanding. It reminds me of this clip from the TV show Frasier (I could only find it in Spanish, but I've provided the English translation)



"Boy, things have really changed since my day. Back then, if a girl got in trouble, her family would send her away to relatives in another state, and if anybody asked, just lied and said she went to Europe. Then when she came back, they'd raise the baby as a little sister. Not like today — we had morals and values back then."
 
One thing that's been bothering me on this abortion thing is this: once conservatives manage to protect the baby's life, what then? Are they going to be there to ensure it has a chance in life?

And then there's that other issue. If abortion's banned, it makes perfect sense that abortion will still happen, illegally, at even more danger to the woman's life. Think about it.
 
One thing that's been bothering me on this abortion thing is this: once conservatives manage to protect the baby's life, what then? Are they going to be there to ensure it has a chance in life?

And then there's that other issue. If abortion's banned, it makes perfect sense that abortion will still happen, illegally, at even more danger to the woman's life. Think about it.

You sound confused. Are you playing devil's advocate in order to solidify your own convictions?
 
One thing that's been bothering me on this abortion thing is this: once conservatives manage to protect the baby's life, what then? Are they going to be there to ensure it has a chance in life?

And then there's that other issue. If abortion's banned, it makes perfect sense that abortion will still happen, illegally, at even more danger to the woman's life. Think about it.
The second is one of the reasons I am probably some version of "pro choice".

On a personal level, I'm opposed to abortions unless the life of the mother is in danger - but at the same time, I know that for myriad reasons, it would be unreasonable to try making that law...

So I figure, let others make their own moral calls on the question, however much I dislike the one option. Thus…pro choice, in a way.
 
Another way of saying you're confused.

I don't think so.

am·biv·a·lent /amˈbivələnt/
Adjective: Having mixed feelings or contradictory ideas about something or someone.

con·fused/kənˈfyo͞ozd/
Adjective:
1.(of a person) Unable to think clearly; bewildered.
2.Showing bewilderment: "a confused expression crossed her face".

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tok=s....,cf.osb&fp=71a8310add608b57&biw=1280&bih=901
https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy....,cf.osb&fp=71a8310add608b57&biw=1280&bih=901
 
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I absolutely feel that if a woman thinks abortion is wrong she shouldn't have one. However, if a man feels abortion is wrong he shouldn't have one either.
 
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Another way of saying you're confused.
You could call me confused as well...

Since I tend to both oppose abortion and support a woman being able to choose what she does with her body.

As contradictory as that may be.
 
You could call me confused as well...

Since I tend to both oppose abortion and support a woman being able to choose what she does with her body.

As contradictory as that may be.

Well, I don't think anyone particular enjoys abortions or the idea of an abortion. But I think it's logically incoherent for a person to argue, "I'm against abortion, but I'm not going to impose my values on other people." My grandmother made that same argument to me. My first question to her was, "do you think abortion is murder." Her answer? "Yes." So, in that case, her argument equates to: "I'm against murder, but I'm not going to impose my values on other people."

If you strongly believe abortion is murder, then it doesn't make any sense to logically argue it should be legal for others to commit an act you find to be murderous.
 
Well, I don't think anyone particular enjoys abortions or the idea of an abortion. But I think it's logically incoherent for a person to argue, "I'm against abortion, but I'm not going to impose my values on other people." My grandmother made that same argument to me. My first question to her was, "do you think abortion is murder." Her answer? "Yes." So, in that case, her argument equates to: "I'm against murder, but I'm not going to impose my values on other people."

If you strongly believe abortion is murder, then it doesn't make any sense to logically argue it should be legal for others to commit an act you find to be murderous.
I know.

And I suppose I've just come to accept that my feelings/opinions on the matter don't make any sense.

Or possibly, I'm not entirely sure myself that abortion could be classified as murder...

Now, partial-birth abortions, although I understand they rarely occur, I would definitely classify as murder.

Possibly even abortions after whatever point it is in the development of the fetus which scientists/doctors consider the point at which it becomes “viable”.

But the rest…I just don’t know.
 
Well, I don't think anyone particular enjoys abortions or the idea of an abortion. But I think it's logically incoherent for a person to argue, "I'm against abortion, but I'm not going to impose my values on other people." My grandmother made that same argument to me. My first question to her was, "do you think abortion is murder." Her answer? "Yes." So, in that case, her argument equates to: "I'm against murder, but I'm not going to impose my values on other people."

If you strongly believe abortion is murder, then it doesn't make any sense to logically argue it should be legal for others to commit an act you find to be murderous.
Unless you are not opposed to murder in all cases. :doh

.
 
Unless you are not opposed to murder in all cases. :doh

.

I suppose if you're GG Allin (I posted a montage video of his song "legalize murder" but quickly removed it for fear of infraction).
 
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Well, I don't think anyone particular enjoys abortions or the idea of an abortion. But I think it's logically incoherent for a person to argue, "I'm against abortion, but I'm not going to impose my values on other people." My grandmother made that same argument to me. My first question to her was, "do you think abortion is murder." Her answer? "Yes." So, in that case, her argument equates to: "I'm against murder, but I'm not going to impose my values on other people."

If you strongly believe abortion is murder, then it doesn't make any sense to logically argue it should be legal for others to commit an act you find to be murderous.

In the case of abortion it does make sense since the personhood of a zygote/embryo is what is at question. See I have no problem with the killing of animals for food or to just "thin the flock" so to speak because they are not "persons". As such the same would apply to a zygote/embryo if they are truely not persons. There is no science that can prove this one way or the other so at least for now it must be left up to the individual person's beliefs in the matter. Forcing a person to believe something that may or may not be true is imo like forcing a person to believe in a religious god that may or may not exist.
 
Are you being sarcastic? I was almost quoting word for word a medical paper. I'm not arguing women shouldn't go to the hospital if a miscarriage takes place. I'm only predicting the outcome of an abortion ban that will inevitably see a rise in private in-home abortions that publicly will be recorded as miscarriages. As you probably know, once the public gets word of a sudden rise in tragedies, disasters, or crimes, they usually demand congress pass some sort of law to address the issue. Regulation is inevitable in this case. We ban abortion. Suddenly, women who want to terminate their pregnancy do so in the privacy of their own home and as a result, the instances of "miscarriages" unexpectedly rises. The public wants an investigation and after a couple years, probes indicate the miscarriages are actually abortions. Congress now passes a new place making it illegal to give birth at home and/or miscarry without informing the authorities. There will also likely be provisions within that new bill calling for full medical examinations and possible criminal investigations (I doubt your wife faced a criminal investigation) for each and every woman who miscarries. At that point we can go to the National Archives, remove the constitution, and burn it.

5 Myths About “Back Alley” Abortions

Myth #1. Illegal abortions were performed by unlicensed, unskilled hacks.


Prior to legalization, 90 percent of illegal abortions were done by physicians. Most of the remainder were done by nurses, midwives or others with at least some medical training.

The term “back alley” referred not to where abortions were performed, but to how women were instructed to enter the doctor’s office after hours, through the back alley, to avoid arousing neighbors’ suspicions.

An illegal abortion may be called a "back-alley", "backstreet", or "back-yard" abortion.

The wire coat hanger method was a popularly known illegal abortion procedure, although they were not the norm. In fact, Mary Calderone, former medical director of Planned Parenthood, said, in a 1960 printing of the American Journal of Public Health:

"Abortion is no longer a dangerous procedure. This applies not just to therapeutic abortions as performed in hospitals but also to so-called illegal abortions as done by physician. In 1957 there were only 260 deaths in the whole country attributed to abortions of any kind, second, and even more important, the conference [on abortion sponsored by Planned Parenthood] estimated that 90 percent of all illegal abortions are presently being done by physicians. Whatever trouble arises usually arises from self-induced abortions, which comprise approximately 8 percent, or with the very small percentage that go to some kind of non-medical abortionist. Abortion, whether therapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous, because it is being done well by physicians."


Unsafe abortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Our worst case scenario is a rise in illegal abortions performed by doctors at their clinic.
 
Then don't you realize that such lax investigations will inevitably lead to a rise in private in-home miscarriages (if abortion is federally banned)? As I said, the only way to ensure women won't abort their pregnancies is to monitor them for nine months and ensure any end to a pregnancy wasn't criminally induced. The only way to do that is to severely intrude on the personal rights of every pregnant woman to ensure illegal abortions remain close to zero. Otherwise, if you maintain the standards NY has, back-alley abortions will rise and you will simply look the other way.

Our worst case scenario is a rise in illegal abortions performed by doctors at their clinic, as sourced.
 
In the case of abortion it does make sense since the personhood of a zygote/embryo is what is at question. See I have no problem with the killing of animals for food or to just "thin the flock" so to speak because they are not "persons". As such the same would apply to a zygote/embryo if they are truely not persons. There is no science that can prove this one way or the other so at least for now it must be left up to the individual person's beliefs in the matter. Forcing a person to believe something that may or may not be true is imo like forcing a person to believe in a religious god that may or may not exist.

Killing and murder are two totally separate things. Killing animals for food is different than committing an unjustified act of murder (i.e. homicide). If you believe abortion is indeed murder, then what sense does it make to condone it on a national level simply because you don't wish to impose your anti-murder value system on others. I have yet to meet a reasonable person who despised the government's attempt to impose their anti-murder value system on society. It is an imposed value system. But one we all tolerate because we all generally agree that A) murder is fundamentally wrong and B) government needs to halt murders and punish murderers. Therefore, if you take the belief that abortion is murder, you then need to take the cause all the way to the top. Otherwise, your logic remains incoherent and your belief system appears foolish.
 
Our worst case scenario is a rise in illegal abortions performed by doctors at their clinic, as sourced.

Not true. Certainly there will be doctors willing to break the law. But it will be much more risky for women to seek the help of a doctor who may or may not report her to the authorities. In this country, it may be true that the majority of illegal abortions will take place in clinics because the infrastructure has already been built over the years. But that doesn't answer my question regarding personal rights and state investigations.
 
Women, particularly young girls and teens, will go to extreme lengths to cause a miscarriage. They will try to cause physical trauma to their stomach area, take all manner of chemicals and drugs, and put all sorts of objects and chemicals up inside. This can and does result in those girl's deaths, severe permanent injuries and sterility. Over 70,000 women a year die and literally millions are disabled, crippled and left sterile by prohibited and self abortions. This also often can lead to a severely physically or mentally damaged premie, such damage caused the the attempts at illegal or self-done abortion attempts.

However, many pro-lifers (not all) on this forum openly state they do not care if that happens or even if a woman - meaning including their 13 year old daughter - dies doing so.

Outlawing abortion also makes it impossible for a pregnant teen or woman to be able to speak to ANYONE about her situation even she even 1% is considering abortion, thus leaving her - whether 12 years old or 45 years old - totally isolated and thus more likely to abortion illegally or in self attempts and more likely to suicide, unable to talk to anyone about it fearing entrapment and criminal prosecution.

The world of outlawing abortions was and would again become a very dark, desperate, violent and ugly world, for which studies show abortion rates - illegal - actually increase as does miscarriages and infant mortalities given that doctors now aren't doctors, they are cops and police investigators, professional witnesses against their patients and pre-natal care inherently later risking prison even if not aborting.

That is now being pursued, using doctors records for miscarriages (again poor single black mothers) to see if some case can be made that she did anything that harmed the viability of her fetus or may be blamed for any post death infant death - to see if they can then send her to prison for decades. Black women now have been sentenced to years is prison, including because a child died some time after birth and her record showed that previously she had been arrested for illegal drug use.

Thus, since that MAY have somehow contributed to her child's death (she has other children), was found guilty of causing her child's death and sent to prison, her children put in foster care of the state. Hopefully that state can cure those children of blackness.

For those pro-lifers cheering their self righteous godliness in a contest of which of them would more restrict and punish pregnant young teens, they are actually imposing such punishments on their own daughters and granddaughters.

Your typical abortion patient is a married white christian woman in her 20s with at least one existing child, not poor black young teens as you claim.

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States
 
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