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The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagree

The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagree


  • Total voters
    21
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

I think it has given more control to the powers that control distribution than any time in history and marginalized artists.

It is industry run amok.

Agreed. Though it is wrong to steal, I'll still not shed any tears for the robber baron's lost profits.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Agreed. Though it is wrong to steal, I'll still not shed any tears for the robber baron's lost profits.

What I basically think we have now is like the old system of when movie studios owned the theaters as well as the creative end. Except it is even worse than that now. They are getting even more free work more or less and making boo koo's bucks on it.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Which commercially sold product in this country can you simply take advantage of without paying for it first?

What other commercially sold products in this country can you make an infinite supply of for free?

Lets just take for example C.S. Lewis? Can you simply take one of his books from a shelf without paying for it because he's been dead for 50 years? Obviously you wouldn't walk into a book store and take one of those books there regardless of how long the author has been deceased. So what's so different about doing the same thing with IP? That's what people who defend the theft of IP can't seem to answer. If they wouldn't steal the physical representation of the works, what makes stealing the digital version any less of a theft?

Because when you steal a physical representation of the work, whomever you stole it from has one less copy and is out the cost of buying another one. When you make a copy of an intellectual property, nobody has lost anything. They still have every copy they paid to produce, and they still have all the profits from all the sales they have made and are continuing to make; whether it is illegally copied a hundred times or a hundred million times, they haven't lost a single cent. The only thing that matters is how many copies they sell, and the idea that every illegal download is a lost sale is pure fantasy on the part of corporate interests that are losing market share to competitors-- legitimate competitors-- who have learned to work with emerging technology instead of against it.

A person deciding not to purchase your goods is not the same thing as a person stealing or destroying them, and your attempts to equate them are morally dishonest.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

What other commercially sold products in this country can you make an infinite supply of for free?

Okay



Because when you steal a physical representation of the work, whomever you stole it from has one less copy and is out the cost of buying another one. When you make a copy of an intellectual property, nobody has lost anything

Didn't you have to pay for something to make that copy with? Or did you steal that too?
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

I'm going to comment even though I have zero moral high ground to stand on. I've downloaded ****loads of pirated movies, TV shows, and software. However, I'm considering quitting based on recent events. My boyfriend and I share the same sexual fetish and recently subscribed to a web site that creates really well made videos of that fetish. (No, I'm not saying what the fetish is on this board, but it is known to some DP members, so you can find out if you're resourceful or just PM me if you must know.) Anyway, the videos are really well made and get us in the mood and are worth paying for. However, the site has had a problem with people sharing the entire paid contents of the site via torrents. That does make it very tempting to just download and enjoy all the content for free. However, if everyone did that, the site owner could not make any money and he would close it down. The site owner has costs he must meet before he can make any money for. There are specialist "models" they call them that actually make their living doing that fetish in videos. He pays to fly them to Holland where he makes the vids and then of course he needs to pay them to perform on camera. The videos are not free to make. Without financial support, they would not get made. That's why I feel a lot better about paying for a legitimate membership to watch them than I would about just finding them in a torrent. I'm glad they exist. We've been enjoying them a lot. (No, I'm not going to link to the site -- that would probably break some kind of rule here. If you can't live without knowing what it is, then PM me.)

I guess that makes me a reformed sexual fetish pirate. I wasn't kidding when I said I don't have a ton of moral high ground to stand on, but, oh, well, I am who I am. My starting point is to quit pirating sex vids. Now I might quit pirating other stuff, but I have a long way to go. My boyfriend set up this computer and I don't think he paid for a single program on it. Even the operating system is pirated.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

A toughie..
Yes, the economy would be better if we(all of us) had more respect for our fellow man.
But we don't.
True, it sounds good to honor, respect and appreciate another man's property...ideally, this is the way things should be...
But, along comes the Internet and the "information" explosion. ......
IMO, this problem has been around for a long time....day 5 in the history of man.
I think that whatever a man does in public has to be "public".....this can change,of course.
We do need the copyright laws ....I think.....
no vote
as man progresses, he will be more and more socialistic, then sharing intellectual property will be the order of the day and society will be great...this will be some time in the future. We have too many "robber barons" and thieves around today.
 
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Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

I must respect you, Luna, really respect.
What you write takes guts....you do possess the moral high ground...IMO.
I think that the total value of all of this "pirated" intangible property to be but nickels and dimes, since so many others have done the same.
Maybe another 1 % in our taxes ????
Or more advertising.....
Every Viagra pill sold is another penny for the site owner ????
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

What other commercially sold products in this country can you make an infinite supply of for free?

First of all, IP is not infinite supply of creativity. It's constrained by the fact that the individual's life and creative periods are both finite. That's why the works of Van Gogh are worth millions and the works of some hipster kid aren't. At least not yet.

Because when you steal a physical representation of the work, whomever you stole it from has one less copy and is out the cost of buying another one. When you make a copy of an intellectual property, nobody has lost anything. They still have every copy they paid to produce, and they still have all the profits from all the sales they have made and are continuing to make; whether it is illegally copied a hundred times or a hundred million times, they haven't lost a single cent. The only thing that matters is how many copies they sell, and the idea that every illegal download is a lost sale is pure fantasy on the part of corporate interests that are losing market share to competitors-- legitimate competitors-- who have learned to work with emerging technology instead of against it.

A person deciding not to purchase your goods is not the same thing as a person stealing or destroying them, and your attempts to equate them are morally dishonest.

This is simply nonsense. When you a physical copy you're paying for the content of it. When you buy a digital copy, you're paying for the same content. There is absolutely no difference between them. They're different mediums for the exact same thing. So to say that a physical copy and digital copy are separated by the loss of income is simply ridiculous. Adobe loses more from people who won't buy their products and instead steal photoshop, than it does from people who run into the store to try and grab the program from the shelves.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

First of all, IP is not infinite supply of creativity. It's constrained by the fact that the individual's life and creative periods are both finite.

Uh, I think he means that once an entire work is completed, making infinite copies is far far far lest costly than with physical goods.

I say far far less because of issues like bandwidth if selling online [and it is really popular], or streaming video, even hard disk space for storing that stuff - that's what keeps me from saying "0 cost".
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

I have no idea either way. I do know if I paid for something and I want to share it for free privately, I should be able to because it's mine. For instance Back in the day I would by a tape and let a friend copy it etc. Or record a song on the radio and let someone else record it from me. The record company's seemed to do just fine. Now because I download it, it should be different? I am not talking about putting it on the internet for anyone to download as that is stealing as everyone could get it. Privately though, I just don't see the issue as I paid for it and it is mine.

Like I said, I don't know.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

First of all, IP is not infinite supply of creativity. It's constrained by the fact that the individual's life and creative periods are both finite. That's why the works of Van Gogh are worth millions and the works of some hipster kid aren't. At least not yet.

No, but there is an infinite supply of copies of an idea once that idea has been conceived. That's why ideas are protected by copyright law in the first place and why copyright protections are limited in both duration and scope.

This is simply nonsense. When you a physical copy you're paying for the content of it. When you buy a digital copy, you're paying for the same content. There is absolutely no difference between them. They're different mediums for the exact same thing. So to say that a physical copy and digital copy are separated by the loss of income is simply ridiculous. Adobe loses more from people who won't buy their products and instead steal photoshop, than it does from people who run into the store to try and grab the program from the shelves.

“It's hard to get a man to understand something when his paycheck depends on him not understanding it.”

When you run into a store and steal a copy of Adobe Photoshop, Adobe hasn't lost anything because they've already been paid for that copy. It's the store that loses money, because they paid money for the missing copy and now must pay more money to replace it. When you illegally download Adobe Photoshop, Adobe still hasn't lost anything unless you would have been willing and able to pay the $700 for it if not for the ability to download it instead. The only thing they are "losing" is a sale; that is not the same thing, morally or economically, as theft.

Let's say that every year, a company produces 100,000 loaves of bread; they sell 90,000 loaves and 10,000 loaves are stolen. Those 10,000 loaves of bread are a real loss to them; it cost the company a significant portion of the loaves' sale price to bake them, so every loaf stolen represents the loss of that amount of money not counting the profit they could have made if they'd sold it. If they could control theft and have no loaves stolen, in exchange for only producing and selling 80,000 loaves of bread, this is a gain for them. They make more money despite selling fewer units because they have fewer losses.

By contract, let's say that a different company sells 90,000 legitimate copies of a piece of software and 1,000,000 copies are illegally downloaded. Those 1,000,000 illegal copies didn't cost the company a dime. The company didn't even produce them-- if they're on any kind of physical medium at all, the software pirate had to provide it himself. The company only has a hypothetical loss, of however many copies it thinks it could have sold if people weren't capable of downloading them; if they think even one percent of those downloads are real lost sales, they're spending far too much of their meager salaries on drugs. If the company could implement magical DRM that means that the software can not be illegally copied, at the expense of only selling 80,000 legitimate copies, they're losing money. This is what IP creators and distributors need to learn; if you can make 10,000 additional sales at the expense of allowing 10,000 additional illegal downloads, that's more money for you. If you can make 1,000 additional sales for 100,000 illegal downloads, that's still more money for you.

There is no "shrink" in intellectual property. Sales are the only number that matter and the only number anyone should pay attention to; anything that increases sales is good for business, no matter how much it also increases piracy, and anything that decreases sales is bad for business, no matter how much it decreases piracy. You don't see a dime from secondhand sales of your IP, and the overwhelming majority of used book purchases are lost sales; it's funny that you never see anyone comparing that to theft.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Some here like to distort my opinion on the subject, but I too think that someone is entitled to compensation for their work, whether it IP or other.
The problem I have is that the law gives more privileged benefits to IP producers, than is necessary.
People "Distort" your position?
You mean you BLATANTLY LIE about your position.
Let's look at another of your posts/several posts on this position:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/history/107910-age-monopoly-try-age-intervention-6.html#post1059805506

mbig said:
One is entitled to Some exclusivity, Obviously.
AGAIN, otherwise there is no incentive to do years of research and spend Billions of dollars on Cancer or Diabetes drugs that could then just be copied in a week. To name just one of many, many, examples.
Again, it's a necessary pillar of a capitalist system. To even have to debate this is Ridiculous.
Harry Guerilla said:
They have the benefit of first to market.
No other exclusivity is necessary.

Copied in a week?
Have you ever reverse engineered a drug or do you have such an intimate knowledge of it, to make such a statement?
I seriously question your qualifications in this area.
mbig said:
This is another Disngenuous and Pathetic Response.
"A week" IS possible with some things in some cases. Software for instance. Even amateurs have 'unlocked' cell phones/Apples codes.
Months would be tops even for Drug with today's diagnostic tools.
That hardly compensates for the idea, years, or Billions it takes for the development of things like Cancer, Diabetes, drugs etc.

To have an ostensibly sensible poster not only hold the idea, but Disingenuously try and defend it with BS is beyond disappointing
/End http://www.debatepolitics.com/history/107910-age-monopoly-try-age-intervention-6.html#post1059805506
and please read the rest as well for More of Harry Disingenuous posting.

IOW, Harry's position is/was you get ZERO protection; others can use it as fast as they can copy it.
Who's "distorting"?
This is like debating a Young Earth Creationist who just found out Dinosaurs exist.
This week he's at least up to 10 years in the other poll string on this.

Harry Guerilla said:
With physical property, if you abandon it, after a certain amount of time, you lose the rights to it.
There is an implicit duty to maintain physical property, but none for IP.
So if you don't rewrite your book, play, or song (or Paint over your Mona Lisa) it's "abandoned", others can just copy it next year.
What an Inapt/deceptive comparison in service of ideology.
 
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Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Let's say that every year, a company produces 100,000 loaves of bread; they sell 90,000 loaves and 10,000 loaves are stolen. Those 10,000 loaves of bread are a real loss to them; it cost the company a significant portion of the loaves' sale price to bake them, so every loaf stolen represents the loss of that amount of money not counting the profit they could have made if they'd sold it. If they could control theft and have no loaves stolen, in exchange for only producing and selling 80,000 loaves of bread, this is a gain for them. They make more money despite selling fewer units because they have fewer losses.

If you took those 100,000 loaves of bread and put them behind the counter, those people who originally stole 10,000 loaves would not run out to buy 10,000 loaves just because they can not longer just snatch and grab.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

You only wrote the book once. How many times do you expect to get paid for it? That's what our resident economists are describing as "rent-seeking" behavior, as opposed to productive behavior like writing more books.

I never "got paid" for writing the book. I only get paid when someone buys a new copy of the book. If nobody buys my book, I get nothing. The only money I earn for writing that book is when someone buys a new copy of it. Lots of people profit off my work, including the publisher. After the book is sold once, it can and is resold again and again and again, and I don't make a penny off of it. In my 15 years of writing, I'd like to think my behavior was quite productive since I produced 35 novels.

Those novels are being sold new every year around the globe, in literally dozens of different languages and different packages. Every time someone around the globe purchases a new copy, I get a few cents. Twice a year they add up the pennies and I get a check. You don't think I'm entitled to that. Well, I am.

Don't get me wrong, I support our right to make profits from our work-- but if our right to profit is only secured due to a public interest in ensuring that our work continues, then at some point that protection must give way to the public interest in seeing that our works are accessible. There needs to be a balance between these two competing interests.

My work IS accessible. Buy the book. You don't want to buy it new, search garage sales and used book stores. Or find a pirated copy online if you can, but between my publisher's considerable influence and The Authors Guild, you'll have to work to find such a site. The public has no right to take my original work and "make it better". That's plagiarism, and it's also illegal... although I'm sure that galls more than a few people as well.

I don't care how many people stomp their little feet and cry foul, my novels are my creation and everytime anyone on the planet buys a legitimate new copy in any language, I'm going to get a percent of the cover price. :shrug: Deal with it.

There is absolutely no comparison to taking a risk by investing hundreds upon hundreds of hours creating something that may be completely unsaleable to someone who takes a regular paycheck for working a job. I know. I've done both. However, I'm not the one saying that after you've worked at your job for a certain number of years, your paycheck should be donated to the public because they deserve access to it. And that's exactly what some in this thread, and other such threads, are saying.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Those novels are being sold new every year around the globe, in literally dozens of different languages and different packages. Every time someone around the globe purchases a new copy, I get a few cents. Twice a year they add up the pennies and I get a check. You don't think I'm entitled to that. Well, I am.

You got me all wrong. I absolutely believe you're entitled to that. I just don't believe you're entitled to it forever. It's necessary for works to enter the public domain at some point, and more than a century is ridiculously long. "Rent-seeking" isn't morally wrong, it's just not economically productive. Copyright exists to provide a profit incentive to write new books, not to ensure a lifetime of income for someone who writes one best-seller.

There is absolutely no comparison to taking a risk by investing hundreds upon hundreds of hours creating something that may be completely unsaleable to someone who takes a regular paycheck for working a job. I know. I've done both. However, I'm not the one saying that after you've worked at your job for a certain number of years, your paycheck should be donated to the public because they deserve access to it. And that's exactly what some in this thread, and other such threads, are saying.

You think I don't know this? I'm still struggling to sell my work. I know the effort involved, and I know the risks. But it doesn't matter how many hundreds of hours you've put into a job, you don't get to collect a paycheck for the rest of your life, and then leave it to your estate for all of eternity when you die. That's not how it works, that's not how it should work, and the fact that people are arguing that it should is goddamned ridiculous. It's a crowning testament to the power of corporate propaganda that people think it's even remotely reasonable, from either a moral perspective or an economic one, for copyrights to last for centuries.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

People "Distort" your position?
You mean you BLATANTLY LIE about your position.
Let's look at another of your posts/several posts on this position:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/history/107910-age-monopoly-try-age-intervention-6.html#post1059805506



/End http://www.debatepolitics.com/history/107910-age-monopoly-try-age-intervention-6.html#post1059805506
and please read the rest as well for More of Harry Disingenuous posting.

IOW, Harry's position is/was you get ZERO protection; others can use it as fast as they can copy it.
Who's "distorting"?
This is like debating a Young Earth Creationist who just found out Dinosaurs exist.
This week he's at least up to 10 years in the other poll string on this.

So if you don't rewrite your book, play, or song (or Paint over your Mona Lisa) it's "abandoned", others can just copy it next year.
What an Inapt/deceptive comparison in service of ideology.

Am I not allowed to moderate and change my own beliefs?
It's funny that instead of going on what is said here, you have to pull from a months old thread in order to attack me.

Same ole same ole, with you.
The distortion of my position is that people think I want free stuff, that's not the case.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

If you took those 100,000 loaves of bread and put them behind the counter, those people who originally stole 10,000 loaves would not run out to buy 10,000 loaves just because they can not longer just snatch and grab.

That's exactly true. The fact is, those 10,000 people have NEVER bought the media they've used. They listened to the radio, they borrowed music from friends, they copied it onto cassette, etc. It's just much easier today and much more visible, you don't have to know someone who has the CD, it's just available online. There aren't really any more people today not buying media than ever didn't buy it before, we've just become a much more entitlement-happy society where people think they deserve things just for waking up in the morning.

It's just not so.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

You think I don't know this? I'm still struggling to sell my work. I know the effort involved, and I know the risks. But it doesn't matter how many hundreds of hours you've put into a job, you don't get to collect a paycheck for the rest of your life, and then leave it to your estate for all of eternity when you die.

Well, that's the thing. A hell of a lot of people do collect a paycheck for the rest of their lives. It's called a pension. Authors don't get that. And royalties to my work will not last for "eternity". My work is not that important, believe me. However, what if I had decided to use my creativity to build a small business of some kind, which earned profits over the years. Then I die. Does my business now belong to the public? Or does it belong to my heirs? How about if I have an anuity, which pays off over several decades, and I die before I've received it all. Does the rest of that money belong to the public? Or does it belong to my heirs?

That's not how it works, that's not how it should work, and the fact that people are arguing that it should is goddamned ridiculous. It's a crowning testament to the power of corporate propaganda that people think it's even remotely reasonable, from either a moral perspective or an economic one, for copyrights to last for centuries.

My copyrights last for my lifetime plus 50 years. Trust me, I'm not now nor will I ever be old enough for those suckers to last for centuries! :lol: Besides, when my publisher decides to stop publishing my works in any venue, royalties will stop. After 7 years, I or my heirs can ask for the copyrights to be returned. Then I or my heirs can attempt to resell them because they are my property or the property of my estate. As I've said, people can be mad all they want, but that's just the way it is. No author pension plans; just a toss of the dice with possible future royalties, pittance though they may be.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

How do copyright laws affect the economy as a whole is my question...can't vote.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Well, that's the thing. A hell of a lot of people do collect a paycheck for the rest of their lives. It's called a pension.

Yeah, when's the last time you heard of anyone except a State employee or a Union employee getting a pension? You're supposed to invest for your retirement.

However, what if I had decided to use my creativity to build a small business of some kind, which earned profits over the years. Then I die. Does my business now belong to the public? Or does it belong to my heirs? How about if I have an anuity, which pays off over several decades, and I die before I've received it all. Does the rest of that money belong to the public? Or does it belong to my heirs?

If you leave your heirs a small business, they still have to keep producing goods or services to make money. What do your heirs do to earn your royalties?
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

Yeah, when's the last time you heard of anyone except a State employee or a Union employee getting a pension? You're supposed to invest for your retirement.

LOL! You've apparently been working for the wrong companies. Even Hewlett-Packard at its most ****ed-up had a pension plan. As does Boeing, Toyota, Apple, Microsoft... oh, hell, the list is too long to mention. Enron had a pension plan... which is what Madoff raided. So yeah, a big chunk of America's "middle class", or what's left of it, has a pension plan.

If you leave your heirs a small business, they still have to keep producing goods or services to make money. What do your heirs do to earn your royalties?

I had already answered that question. Once the publisher stops publishing my work, which my heirs had inherited, the copyrights will be fully returned to my heirs. For my heirs to make any money on my product which they inherited, they would have to find a way to publish, distribute, or outright sell my product, which they inherited. If they just keep the copyright and do nothing, that's their choice. They wouldn't profit from my product, which they inherited... but nobody else would be able to profit from it either.

It really galls you that if I died tomorrow, my kids would be able to cash royalty checks big enough for them to fill their cars with gasoline for a few weeks, doesn't it? :lol:
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

That's exactly true. The fact is, those 10,000 people have NEVER bought the media they've used. They listened to the radio, they borrowed music from friends, they copied it onto cassette, etc. It's just much easier today and much more visible, you don't have to know someone who has the CD, it's just available online. There aren't really any more people today not buying media than ever didn't buy it before, we've just become a much more entitlement-happy society where people think they deserve things just for waking up in the morning.

It's just not so.

I remember growing up as a kid a lot of movies we watched was what someone else recorded onto VHS.We were poor, didn't have cable, and we had a relative that did have cable.I am not sure if my mom bought the VCR on law away or bought it used or if someone gave her a old vcr.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

You do realize we can embed copyright in the data for images.....

And if I find you using an image for profit (that includes promotion) I made... I'm going to get a little pissed.
 
Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

You do realize we can embed copyright in the data for images.....

And if I find you using an image for profit (that includes promotion) I made... I'm going to get a little pissed.

What happens to that embed copyright if that image is converted to another format, altered or if some does ctrl + Print Scrn and paste on onto windows paint?
 
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Re: The economy would be better if more people respected copyright law. Agree/disagr

What happens to that embed copyright if that image is converted to another format or altered?

The embedded copyright stays with it. As far as I know. I'm sure there is a way to subvert it though.
 
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