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Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

Is equal opportunity (not equal outcome) best for society?

  • Yes

    Votes: 28 75.7%
  • No

    Votes: 9 24.3%

  • Total voters
    37
equal asset allocation? people like me would be buying those assets from people like my brother....
and in one generation, the smart among us would be wealthy, and the notsosmart would be poor again...

You have everything right except the "again" piece. This assumes that everyone that is rich are brilliant and everyone that is struggling financial are unintelligent etc.

You are right that each generation would work out a hierarchy ... however, you would likely be surprised to find that people that would have had less success, suddenly had much more success ... a wise man once said "it takes money to make money"

Then, the next generation would start the hierarchy race all over again from the same starting line, making it a fair race for every new generation ... sounds like the kind of equal opportunity I would support :)
 
again, there is no need to be born into millions of dollars, why not just get by like the rest of us and be thankful for the little things not your bank account.

um... because people are dying from starvation and exposure in the US! Here's what you said sounds like ... I'll set up a little scenario for you ... :

A rich individual who had inherited his/her wealth says to a starving individual ... "be happy for the little things"

The starving individual replies "OK, that sound great" ... looks at the sunset and dies

What have we learned from this?

Cute little sentiments like "just be happy for the little things" do not save lives, nor do they remove the chains of oppression of the rich on the poor

I say ... be thankful for everything that is good in your life and stand up and fight for what is right ... never be too scared or naive to avoid thinking about changing social systems ... jmo
 
Fundamentally, and I've said it before, your parents are about 90% of your chances of success in life.

Modern psychology would disagree as what a person becomes, psychologically speaking, is drawn from about 50% genetics and 50% environmental influences

First, there is the matter of genetics. I doubt that anyone can deny that parents with favorable genes (intellect, physical attraction and ability and so on) bequeath these to their offspring with complete disregard for equality.

As I mentioned, genetics only influences about 50% of who a person is, psychologically speaking - however, in theory, two individuals of equal psychological value, would fair differently were they to be born with different levels of tangible assets - I think everyone can agree that this would be true (remember we are talking theoretically ... and remember, theories are often used to find solutions)

Second, more responsible parents tend to limit the number of offspring to that which they can give financial and the social upbringing needed for success.

Actually ... this statement is a little misguided. There is evidence that (unconsciously) under situations of poverty, women have more children in order to increase odds of successful future propagation of genes. Thus, the worse off the conditions are, usually, the more children are born to one mother. The idea is that there is a better chance of producing an offspring that will be genetically superior if more offspring are birthed ... think if a parent looking to have a genius child

On the other hand, those in wealth can invest much time and money into parenting their children and thus do not see the genetic advantage of the "quantity strategy" and thus stick to the "quality strategy".

Still, regardless of why this happens, the fact remains that those any child born into poverty will have a disadvantage, monetarily speaking, when compared to their wealthy counterparts.

Third, the personal conduct of the parents sets a tremendous example and has a profound effect in the formation of offspring.

No doubt that this is true ... still, the fact remains that those any child born into poverty will have a disadvantage, monetarily speaking, when compared to their wealthy counterparts.

Let us also keep in mind that humans are adaptable. Thus, whatever environment we are born in, we adapt to it in order to achieve maximum genetic propagation. In situations where the chance of rising out of poverty is low, many strategies resort to other ways of attracting mates. This is just the way things work. We forget that humans who supposedly are not behaving "properly" (specifically those in doing so who are born into poverty) are simply trying to find a way to adapt to the poor conditions they are born into. The most important factor here is whether or not that strategy passes on their genetics.

Fourth, the parents' expectation of their children usually propels them to achieve accordingly.

Not necessarily - but there is some truth to this statement

Trying to superficially even the playing field is a non-starter because from the very get-go children are not born equal.

Remember starting them out on the same financial footing from the "get-go" is just one way equal opportunity can be realized financially speaking - remember, we are not looking for equal outcome ... only equal opportunity

The fact that children are not born equal is the exact reason why this would be a good idea ... because it would allow the "natural" talent to shine brighter

As long as parents are the primary care givers, the family units' influence will always be unequal. Most of those who sink to the bottom rungs of society are more than likely raised in unstable and often inappropriate environments. Parents who cannot or don't want to instill work ethics or otherwise lay foundations for their children's success will, in most cases, raise children who are very unlikely to become prosperous.

This is true and this is why we should focus on education and providing counseling for children that are struggling ... still, this does not negate the fact that allowing all to start form the same starting line financially speaking, would slowly begin to help the situation

The determent to equality lies in in the four points above.

Except you missed the financial determinant - remember, finances affects many of the points you mentioned, for example, if parents had more money, they may be more inclined to spend more quality time with their children - they may get more money if they had a chance to start the race on equal footing

They are usually inseparable. The station of one's birth usually dictates the station of one's life which is invariably good for some and bad for others. Thus, poverty and wealth perpetuate themselves through generations and in truth, there is jack-**** anyone can do about it. It is truly a fool's errand.

And this is where pessimists make their mistakes. Social policies can and have enhanced peoples lives. If we understand the problem, we can work out a solution
 
my parents were democrats, they wanted all their kids to have the same LACK of opportunity....2 of us had the smarts to go to college, but without Pell grants and student loan programs, and permission to live at home while going to college, that was not in the cards. Mom wanted "room and board", and I can tell you that she wanted way too much considering the quality offered.
She was a terrible cook, for starters...
So my only good choice was to join the Navy...

I am talking about the early 60's, before the govt made it easy to finance an education. Good thing I got some good tech training in the Navy, otherwise I might be poor like most of my siblings.
 
my parents were democrats, they wanted all their kids to have the same LACK of opportunity....2 of us had the smarts to go to college, but without Pell grants and student loan programs, and permission to live at home while going to college, that was not in the cards. Mom wanted "room and board", and I can tell you that she wanted way too much considering the quality offered.
She was a terrible cook, for starters...
So my only good choice was to join the Navy...

I am talking about the early 60's, before the govt made it easy to finance an education. Good thing I got some good tech training in the Navy, otherwise I might be poor like most of my siblings.

So what do you think about how that worked out? I.E. Do you think that individuals without money should have to do things like join the military (i.e. risk your life) in order to acquire wealth, while your wealthy counterparts are going to high end schools and or reinvesting their inheritances?
 
So what do you think about how that worked out? I.E. Do you think that individuals without money should have to do things like join the military (i.e. risk your life) in order to acquire wealth, while your wealthy counterparts are going to high end schools and or reinvesting their inheritances?

bring back the draft.....it did more than most programs to "equalize" opportunity....especially the GI Bill part of service...
 
bring back the draft.....it did more than most programs to "equalize" opportunity....especially the GI Bill part of service...

OK, I see what you're saying - at least that way it wouldn't only be the poor that are dying for our country (and don't think for a minute that rich daddy couldn't pay to make sure his son got a cushy job in the military should he ever get drafted)

Still, for the people still at home, unequal opportunity would still be raging
 
OK, wow! I found that I am not the only one who has been thinking about equal opportunity the way I have been in this post. It turns out there is a conception of equal opportunity know as "Level Playing Field. Below are some examples of what this means:

From wikipedia:

The idea is that initial "unchosen inequalities"––prior circumstances over which an individual had no control but which impact his or her success in a given competition for a particular post––these unchosen inequalities should be eliminated as much as possible, according to this conception. According to Roemer, society should "do what it can to level the playing field so that all those with relevant potential will eventually be admissible to pools of candidates competing for positions.[32] Afterwards, when an individual competes for a specific post, he or she might make specific choices which cause future inequalities––and these inequalities are deemed acceptable because of the previous presumption of fairness.

Equal opportunity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From stanford.edu:

The equality-of-opportunity distributive justice theorist answers that the distribution is just only if it satisfies the norm of equality of opportunity, which requires that unchosen inequalities should be eliminated and that inequalities that arise from the choices of individuals given equal initial conditions and a fair framework for interaction should not be eliminated or reduced ...........

People’s initial circumstances should be made equal. But once individuals make choices to lead their lives in one or another way starting from initial equality, justice does not demand further compensation if risks taken happen to turn out badly and in fact justice demands that further compensation should not occur.

Equality of Opportunity (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

So the basic idea is that ideally, aside from unalterable inequalities, such as genetic ones, everyone starts from the same starting line creating a level playing field for competition. Addressing complicated issues such as quality of parenting may not be appropriate in applying these principles. However, monetary and or tangible assets can be leveled when an individual is starting out, as can access to education (based on academic performance of course) would all be possible and would certainly begin to bring us closer the the ideal of a "level playing field".

What would be the best way for this ideal to be realized?

I.E. Should all individuals receive equal amounts of assets at adulthood (disallowing significant parental financial backing and inheritance)
How much should be allocated to individuals who are just starting out in life?
Would this make it so that within each generation, there would not be enough worker bees to do the typically lower paying jobs?
Would the less desirable jobs all of a sudden become better paying jobs?
Would there still be economic stability with so many people having a larger stake in companies?

So what do you all think?
 
you can offer up a level playing field, but not all players will be equal....in my family, only 2 of us had the internal drive to pursue more education and a better life, 2 more were disadvantaged in the smarts department, and the other 2 were just plain lazy.
If you GIVE money, or assets, to people who are lazy, they will piss it away. If you GIVE to the slow of mind, someone will find a way to legally take those assets from them.
 
Starting life with equal opportunities is out of the question. Instead there should be a level playing field and no student should be deprived of education and health care just cuz he or she is poor.
 
Came across this article which substantiates my point.

Breaking the Cycle of Childhood Poverty

America stands as a beacon of hope and the possibility of a better life -- but it is also a nation where nearly 1 in 4 children live in poverty. Some of these children don't have permanent places to call home, others go to bed hungry and don't have access to proper medical care, and often their schools are underfunded and understaffed. Every day, families in the United States face the stark choice between a roof over their heads and food on the table. Buying health insurance, owning a home, and saving up for college are just too far out of their reach.

Rep. Chris Van Hollen: Breaking the Cycle of Childhood Poverty
 
you can offer up a level playing field, but not all players will be equal....in my family, only 2 of us had the internal drive to pursue more education and a better life, 2 more were disadvantaged in the smarts department, and the other 2 were just plain lazy.
If you GIVE money, or assets, to people who are lazy, they will piss it away. If you GIVE to the slow of mind, someone will find a way to legally take those assets from them.

You're darn right! That's the beauty of it. Leveling the playing field allows this natural phenomena to play itself out with each new generation. Without the level playing field, we would see the artificial monetary positions that we see today.
 
Starting life with equal opportunities is out of the question. Instead there should be a level playing field and no student should be deprived of education and health care just cuz he or she is poor.


And this is the type of equal opportunities I am talking about. Of course nothing would ever be literally equal at the start of life. But it would be a goal to shoot for, knowing that we could get really close, but never reach it.
 
You're darn right! That's the beauty of it. Leveling the playing field allows this natural phenomena to play itself out with each new generation. Without the level playing field, we would see the artificial monetary positions that we see today.


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It is very clear what equal opportunity means, or at least it should be…. Well, just to be clear for this post… by equal opportunity, I mean the following… do you believe that everyone should start life with the same opportunities (this = equal opportunity for the purposes of this post)? Or would this lead to a lack of adequate separation between the rich and the poor, leading to a lack of functionality. For example, if everyone were allowed the same amount of money at birth, the same amount of land, the same amount of education and so on … would this lead to an inadequate number of “worker bees” (the poor) and an overpopulation of possible business owners etc. … ? What do you think?

Interesting...

I'd have to say all things being equal there likely would be a disproportion of workers mainly because no one would be incentivized to do anything productive. However, you haven't added any variables in which to go by, i.e., do the people have the freedom to spend their money on anything they want? Are they free to learn anything of interest to them? Can they do anything with their land except merely live on it? With those variables in mind, I'd say many people would take risks with their money and over time many would lose a significant amount of their wealth for various reasons.

Some might make poor decisions. Some may just blow it on worthless things. Some might simple have bad luck with their investment. Some just might not be good stewards with their money or pursue the right education or put their money to good use for their benefit. All sorts of things might happen. Thing is you just don't know, but I suspect that over time a good number of people would fall out of the "wealth-class". You'd probably still have a large amount of wealthy people, but you'd never have a "balance" of rich -v- poor and it wouldn't be due to natural selection; it would be man being free to choose for himself.
 
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It is very clear what equal opportunity means, or at least it should be…. Well, just to be clear for this post… by equal opportunity, I mean the following… do you believe that everyone should start life with the same opportunities (this = equal opportunity for the purposes of this post)? Or would this lead to a lack of adequate separation between the rich and the poor, leading to a lack of functionality. For example, if everyone were allowed the same amount of money at birth, the same amount of land, the same amount of education and so on … would this lead to an inadequate number of “worker bees” (the poor) and an overpopulation of possible business owners etc. … ? What do you think?

Opportunity will never be strictly equal persay. And a lot of the time, "equal opportunity" is mere a push for equality of outcome in disguise. People will say "they weren't give the same opportunity!" when pushing for things such as affirmative action, welfare, lax crime standards, etc. etc.

Truth is, unless you confiscate all the children and grow them in a government facility, there will always be children who grow up in bad homes, parents who are drug addicts, felons, apathetic, or too young to handle the pressure and responsibility of parenthood. There are also people who won't see the same opportunity to succeed because they simply aren't talented enough. The fact is we recognize talent at an earlier and earlier age and those students will have an advantage from that point forward in their education. I certainly don't think its fair or does any good to hold them back just to ensure an "equality of opportunity."

Anyways. Its should never be the job of society to try to compensate individuals for their perceived level of hardship. The answer is creating the greatest possible opportunities for everyone through a strong public school system, a strong secondary education system (college, jobs training etc.), and a strong economy. This will foster an environment where people can create opportunity for themselves through personal responsibility, by being good parents and hard workers. It comes down to the individual, your child will have whatever opportunities you work to give or not give them.
 
I'd have to say all things being equal there likely would be a disproportion of workers mainly because no one would be incentivized to do anything productive.

This is a great point. I was thinking that the equity received from equal opportunity would not last that long and they would have to do something to make a living. As an example, I did the math recently and if all the income in the US in 2012 where divided between the total population, each individual would receive around 43K. That is enough to live in most areas of the country, but its not a heaping amount of money either. Of course I am not proposing splitting of of the income this way, but using this as an example of how if each person were give equal opportunity at birth at least in the monetary way, it is likely that they would have to work to make a living.

Still what do you think that work would look like? In other words, what would people be doing for jobs?

However, you haven't added any variables in which to go by, i.e., do the people have the freedom to spend their money on anything they want? Are they free to learn anything of interest to them? Can they do anything with their land except merely live on it?

Yes of course they could use their monetary inheritance (aka equal opportunity equity) however they wanted to. Everything about the market would be the same as it is now, the only difference being that they would have equal opportunity so far as monetary inheritance is concerned.
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I'd say many people would take risks with their money and over time many would lose a significant amount of their wealth for various reasons.

Some might make poor decisions. Some may just blow it on worthless things. Some might simple have bad luck with their investment. Some just might not be good stewards with their money or pursue the right education or put their money to good use for their benefit. All sorts of things might happen. Thing is you just don't know, but I suspect that over time a good number of people would fall out of the "wealth-class". You'd probably still have a large amount of wealthy people, but you'd never have a "balance" of rich -v- poor and it wouldn't be due to natural selection; it would be man being free to choose for himself.

Yes, I agree, some would take risks. Some would not. Its hard to say exactly what would happen, but I think people wanting power and money would lead to risk taking and inevitably great wealth could be accumulated. On the other hand, other people's inability to manage their money would leave them poor. Of course if we were to do this we'd have the same safety nets that we have today to catch those that fall. Although, I would like for the system to include incentives for getting out of the safety net.

I'm not sure what you mean with the natural selection comment though. I am very familiar with the term, but not sure how you are applying it here.
 
It is very clear what equal opportunity means, or at least it should be…. Well, just to be clear for this post… by equal opportunity, I mean the following… do you believe that everyone should start life with the same opportunities (this = equal opportunity for the purposes of this post)? Or would this lead to a lack of adequate separation between the rich and the poor, leading to a lack of functionality. For example, if everyone were allowed the same amount of money at birth, the same amount of land, the same amount of education and so on … would this lead to an inadequate number of “worker bees” (the poor) and an overpopulation of possible business owners etc. … ? What do you think?

Equality of opportunities is an ideal that can never be achieved, but the more we try to achieve it, the better, IMO.

But what does it mean in reality? That's probably where we're going to differ.

One example: I don't think children should be blamed for their parents' mistakes. That means the education of children should not depend on their parents' capacity to collect money. That means that it should be impossible for children of rich children with poor grades to go to university just because their parents "donate", just like poor children with good talents should be accepted, their talents should count. Just one example, there are many more.
 
Equality of opportunities is an ideal that can never be achieved, but the more we try to achieve it, the better, IMO.

But what does it mean in reality? That's probably where we're going to differ.

One example: I don't think children should be blamed for their parents' mistakes. That means the education of children should not depend on their parents' capacity to collect money. That means that it should be impossible for children of rich children with poor grades to go to university just because their parents "donate", just like poor children with good talents should be accepted, their talents should count. Just one example, there are many more.

I think you are confusing circumstances with opportunity.
 
Opportunity will never be strictly equal persay.

I agree, we cannot account for natural (aka, non-artificial or non-monetary) inheritances, such as intelligence, charisma, skill level and non-monetary parenting.

And a lot of the time, "equal opportunity" is mere a push for equality of outcome in disguise.

Really? You mean people who are looking for a specific outcome and fail will blame it on a lack of equal opportunity or something like that?

People will say "they weren't give the same opportunity!" when pushing for things such as affirmative action, welfare, lax crime standards, etc. etc.

Ah yes. I am against most affirmative action because it doesn't work that well and there are better ways, such as the way being explored in this post, to ensure true equality of opportunity, i.e allowing new generations to start off on a level playing field, at least monetarily; this is similar to the rules for racing, i.e. everyone must start from the same starting line. However, since this idea hasn't been realized and thoroughly explored yet, I suppose we will just have to focus on reforming affirmative action so that is does not become reverse discrimination.

Truth is, unless you confiscate all the children and grow them in a government facility, there will always be children who grow up in bad homes, parents who are drug addicts, felons, apathetic, or too young to handle the pressure and responsibility of parenthood.

True, although with applying a level playing field, we could at least ensure that each individual could start off with equal monetary inheritances. Over time, with education and a lowered need for individuals to pursue illegal endeavors and to treat their psychological problems with drugs, we would likely see gradual progress away from criminality and drug use. There would always be some crime and some drug use, but at least it would be a whole lot lower. I should not that legalizing drugs and treating them as a medical issue would also help this along. But the issue of drug prohibition isn't really the topic of the OP, so I'll stop talking about it for now.

There are also people who won't see the same opportunity to succeed because they simply aren't talented enough. The fact is we recognize talent at an earlier and earlier age and those students will have an advantage from that point forward in their education. I certainly don't think its fair or does any good to hold them back just to ensure an "equality of opportunity."

Yes, I completely agree, those that aren't as talented would not make out as well and that is fine. The purpose of this corrected version of capitalism would be to increase the effects of competition based on skills, characters, etc. It is healthy to have different levels of success, otherwise we would just see equality of outcome which would be horrible for society, i.e. no competition, no motivation etc.

Anyways. Its should never be the job of society to try to compensate individuals for their perceived level of hardship.

I agree. Instead, we should simply allow the artificial (monetary) inheritances to be divided among all members of the new generation so as to allow for a level playing field, thus allowing everyone to start the race at the same starting line, at least as far as monetary inheritances are concerned. In this way, there would be no unfair advantages/compensation given to those that are living in hardship.

The answer is creating the greatest possible opportunities for everyone through a strong public school system, a strong secondary education system (college, jobs training etc.), and a strong economy. This will foster an environment where people can create opportunity for themselves through personal responsibility, by being good parents and hard workers. It comes down to the individual, your child will have whatever opportunities you work to give or not give them.

I agree that this would be probably one of the most important pieces of allowing a level playing field for new generations. Education is where it is at. I believe schools should teach values too, jmo. In combination with the equal starting point of artificial inheritances I'm not sure we could go wrong. Of course there would need to be some tweaking.
 
Equality of opportunities is an ideal that can never be achieved, but the more we try to achieve it, the better, IMO.

But what does it mean in reality? That's probably where we're going to differ.

One example: I don't think children should be blamed for their parents' mistakes. That means the education of children should not depend on their parents' capacity to collect money. That means that it should be impossible for children of rich children with poor grades to go to university just because their parents "donate", just like poor children with good talents should be accepted, their talents should count. Just one example, there are many more.

Yes, I agree, true equality of opportunity will never be achievable. But we can get pretty darn close. By simply leveling the playing field so that each new generation starts out with the same amount of monetary inheritances (also known as artificial or unnatural inheritances), we would probably be as close as we could to true equality of opportunity.

Many people like respond with the following rebuttal.... "even that wouldn't be equal opportunity because people would have differing levels of parenting and some people would be naturally more talented than others"... to which I would respond that we are not looking for equality of outcome. We are looking for equality of opportunity. Having different parenting styles is good. Having differing types of skills and personalities is good, these are all things that add variety and also that contribute to competition. There is no need to try to tamper with natural inheritances, its the artificial inheritances that need to be corrected for.
 
I think you are confusing circumstances with opportunity.

I think he's getting at something though. He saying it isn't good for our society to allow rich students with poor grades get to go to good schools and disallow poor students with good grades to go to good schools. If there were more equal opportunity, this wouldn't be the case.
 
I'm not sure what you mean with the natural selection comment though. I am very familiar with the term, but not sure how you are applying it here.

Well, if everyone was to receive the same amount of money, have the same chances to attend school and learn, etc., etc., as your hypothesis dictates, you have to accept that not everyone will be capable of applying themselves and, thus, become part of the free market system since some would have a physical and/or mental handicap. As such, you can't expect that they'd be capable of earning a living on their own. Such people would have to be set aside and society would have to let the social safety net pick them up as very few people would care enough to see to their survival. Survival of the fittest would surely apply in this case.
 
I would say equity rather than equality is best.
 
Equal opportunity tends to lead to pretty equal outcomes. Actually equal opportunity would lead us to much more equal outcomes than we have right now. Also, equal outcomes for this generation lead to equal opportunity for the next. It's really very hard to have one without the other.
 
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