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Was the War in Iraq worth it?

Was the War in Iraq worth it?

  • Yes

    Votes: 21 19.6%

  • No

    Votes: 86 80.4%
  • Total voters
    107
mac said:
Wrong, wrong and wrong. It was to prepare us for interrogation. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.
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I'm sorry, but that is not true. You are misinformed. On a lot of things it appears.

Again...what facts? Have you shown any motion presented by any UN member? Have you shown any substantial proof that our reputation is in tatters? No, you have presented talking points, rumors, and conjecture.
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Either you didn't read it or understand it very well, I don't know which. But there is a link to UN charter, to which we signed. It spells out clearly waht we agreed to. These are facts. You're merely so used to dismissing that which does not affirm your belief structure that you really don't pay close attention it appears.
 
justabubba said:
my Christmas wish
the opportunity to personally waterboard those who insist they have experienced it and found it not to be torture
and to videotape those efforts for posting

alas, santa is as real as their professions
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I've also been pepper sprayed. That hurts worse and I'd still do it to you (while I was waterboarding you lol) for calling me a liar and saying my job is equivalent to Santa. What, pray tell, is your profession? You know, this oddly feels like the scene in 300 where Leonidas asks the pathetic Arcadians what they do for a living.
 
MarineTpartier said:
I've also been pepper sprayed. That hurts worse and I'd still do it to you (while I was waterboarding you lol) for calling me a liar and saying my job is equivalent to Santa. What, pray tell, is your profession? You know, this oddly feels like the scene in 300 where Leonidas asks the pathetic Arcadians what they do for a living.
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Well, I was only in the 82nd, so not sure that counts. But like I note earlier, those who created the SERE training and those who run it say it is not the same. Now, I'm sure they are not qualified to say, but they do say that.

Yes, I've seen people peppered sprayed, and some like me have less reaction to it than others. Seen people hit with a tazzer as well, and while most survive, some have died. But, none of that has been called torture in the past. The same cannot be said of waterboarding.
 
Boo Radley said:
Well, I was only in the 82nd, so not sure that counts. But like I note earlier, those who created the SERE training and those who run it say it is not the same. Now, I'm sure they are not qualified to say, but they do say that.

Yes, I've seen people peppered sprayed, and some like me have less reaction to it than others. Seen people hit with a tazzer as well, and while most survive, some have died. But, none of that has been called torture in the past. The same cannot be said of waterboarding.
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Nah, you're good. I was talking to the other guy lol. I've worked with the 82nd before, good group of guys. In Iraq in '07. Don't ask me names, it was only one op. Can't remember much other than they were 82nd.
 
Boo Radley said:
I'm sorry, but that is not true. You are misinformed. On a lot of things it appears.
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Boo, I did not read about SERE, I went through it. Several times in fact, not to mention annual refreshers. I'll rely on personal first hand expirience rather than your mad internet reading skilz, I think.



Either you didn't read it or understand it very well, I don't know which. But there is a link to UN charter, to which we signed. It spells out clearly waht we agreed to. These are facts. You're merely so used to dismissing that which does not affirm your belief structure that you really don't pay close attention it appears.
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What it doesn't do is point to any UN complaint or refusal. Nor does it point out the many UN nations, also a party to the same agreements that joined us in the invasion.
 
mac said:
Imperial? Didn't I just read that we're leaving? Maybe I'm confused.
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British left India after some time too...doesn't mean they didn't play the Imperial card. It's a bit of hyperbole for the US in Iraq as we haven't officially declared ourselves in charge. However, the occupational decade war was still an act of imperialism; we just don't take the last step. Not yet anyway.
 
Thunder said:
the Iraq war was worth it if they become and stay a stable democracy.
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What if the Iraqi people do not want a western style democracy?
 
radcen said:
They're too dumb to know what they want.

Yes, that was sarcasm.
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Whew. Long ago I learned that I cannot discern sarcasm online
 
Ikari said:
Whew. Long ago I learned that I cannot discern sarcasm online
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:2razz: Years ago I learned that many people truly cannot, hence the unfortunately necessary disclaimer.

It wasn't intended for you, btw, but rather for pretty much anybody else who moseyed along and wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I find that the more extreme right/left a person is, the more they lose their sense of humor.
 
I try to keep a sense of humor, but I've had my jokes misinterpreted, and I've misinterpreted other's jokes. It's hard without hearing it, right, because inflection and speech really bring out the meaning of words. The same sentence can have multiple meanings. It always reminds me of a comedy skit (was it Kids in the Hall...I can't remember) where these workers at a nuclear power plant are trying to prevent a meltdown and the instructions for such a time read "You can never use too much water in a nuclear reactor". And thus the skit was a debate as to what that means. Is there a limit to the amount of water you can use, and you cannot go above it; or is there no limit to the amount of water one can use. The verbalization then of the sentence conveys the finer meanings.
 
Ikari said:
British left India after some time too...doesn't mean they didn't play the Imperial card. It's a bit of hyperbole for the US in Iraq as we haven't officially declared ourselves in charge. However, the occupational decade war was still an act of imperialism; we just don't take the last step. Not yet anyway.
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Dude, the the British left India after about 200 years. Come on, man.
 
mac said:
Boo, I did not read about SERE, I went through it. Several times in fact, not to mention annual refreshers. I'll rely on personal first hand expirience rather than your mad internet reading skilz, I think.
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Doesn't matter. YOU may well think your limited exposure is the worst possible. It isn't according to those who run it. This is important to understand, you may think something, believe it with all your being, and be wrong. So, the testiminy of those who design it and run it matter more than yuour perception of it. And they say you are wrong.


What it doesn't do is point to any UN complaint or refusal. Nor does it point out the many UN nations, also a party to the same agreements that joined us in the invasion.
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I always laugh at those who ignore factual information by raising a bar to we had to be prosecuted before what is clear is true. It really is a funny kind of denial. Fact: We did not invade under teh UN banner. The coalition of the willing specifcally means not with the UN. FACT: The UN Charter we signed says we can only act with the consent of UN security council, which we did not have, or when facing an imminent threat. Neither condition existed. Now, you can pretend all you want, but those are facts.
 
mac said:
Dude, the the British left India after about 200 years. Come on, man.
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I did say it was hyperbole. However, at the same time a decade long occupation to bring "freedom and democracy" (which was an excuse and nothing more) is a bit imperial and we should watch what we are using our military for to ensure that the government is using it properly. I don't see a point in occupational war, particularly in absence of a formal Declaration of War.
 
radcen said:
:2razz: Years ago I learned that many people truly cannot, hence the unfortunately necessary disclaimer.

It wasn't intended for you, btw, but rather for pretty much anybody else who moseyed along and wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I find that the more extreme right/left a person is, the more they lose their sense of humor.
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Hey, I'm a right wing, Tea Party zealot and I take offense to you classifying me as someone who doesn't have a sense of humor!!!! Disclaimer.
 
Boo Radley said:
Doesn't matter. YOU may well think your limited exposure is the worst possible. It isn't according to those who run it. This is important to understand, you may think something, believe it with all your being, and be wrong. So, the testiminy of those who design it and run it matter more than yuour perception of it. And they say you are wrong.
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My limited exposure...I attended SERE, Jungle SERE and Advanced SERE. I would say my exposure is far greater than yours. Let me ask you something...if the waterboarding was a preparation for torture...why did they not put electrodes on my testicles? Or pull out my fingernails? Why just the waterboard, the box, and the smoke, and the soft cell?

I always laugh at those who ignore factual information by raising a bar to we had to be prosecuted before what is clear is true. It really is a funny kind of denial. Fact: We did not invade under teh UN banner. The coalition of the willing specifcally means not with the UN. FACT: The UN Charter we signed says we can only act with the consent of UN security council, which we did not have, or when facing an imminent threat. Neither condition existed. Now, you can pretend all you want, but those are facts.
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I always laugh at those that can't differentiate fact from agenda driven spin...
 
Ikari said:
I did say it was hyperbole. However, at the same time a decade long occupation to bring "freedom and democracy" (which was an excuse and nothing more) is a bit imperial and we should watch what we are using our military for to ensure that the government is using it properly. I don't see a point in occupational war, particularly in absence of a formal Declaration of War.
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Whether or not you agree with the effort to keep Iraq from collapsing right back into another despotic regime or not, you can't compare it with establishing a colony by force. :shrug:
 
mac said:
My limited exposure...I attended SERE, Jungle SERE and Advanced SERE. I would say my exposure is far greater than yours. Let me ask you something...if the waterboarding was a preparation for torture...why did they not put electrodes on my testicles? Or pull out my fingernails? Why just the waterboard, the box, and the smoke, and the soft cell?
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Yes, you have a limited view, limited to only how you preceive what happened to you. You did not get the entire waterboarding experience, and,again, those who crearted it and ran it say you did not. Now, perhaps you think you know more than they do. I suspect they would laugh at that, but it is not likley that you know as much as you think you do. You we given but a taste, nothing more. You really should read what they say.


I always laugh at those that can't differentiate fact from agenda driven spin...
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Again, tell yourself what you have to keep your beliefs affirmed, but you've been given fact. The spin is on your part as you try to hide from the truth.
 
when asked whether or not the French Revolution was a good thing, Chou En-Lai replied "it is too soon to tell".


The ledger is not yet complete on Iraqi Freedom, and it seems we may have thrown away all our hard-fought gains at the end, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. After all of that.... because our administration was too incompetent to negotiate a SOFA treaty.... :sigh:


On the up side, we have the Arab Spring. Which will create a string of Islamist regimes across the Middle East, who will go to war with the West (and Israel) and be defeated in turn, thereby delegitimizing that ideology.
 
cpwill said:
when asked whether or not the French Revolution was a good thing, Chou En-Lai replied "it is too soon to tell".


The ledger is not yet complete on Iraqi Freedom, and it seems we may have thrown away all our hard-fought gains at the end, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. After all of that.... because our administration was too incompetent to negotiate a SOFA treaty.... :sigh:


On the up side, we have the Arab Spring. Which will create a string of Islamist regimes across the Middle East, who will go to war with the West (and Israel) and be defeated in turn, thereby delegitimizing that ideology.
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That would be true if the outcome was what made it good or bad. But even if Iraq becomes heaven on earth, that would not justify what was done or paid for it. Sorry.
 
Luna Tick said:
Simple yes or no question.
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It plunged our country further into the deficit, and further down the spiral of recession....and what exactly did we get out of it? I don't see anything really really worthwhile on the positive-end that justified the cost of this war. So, NO for me.
 
CNN Poll: Americans agree on bringing troops home from Iraq

(CNN) – Most Americans agree with the decision to end the war in Iraq, according to a CNN/ORC International poll released Wednesday. Almost eight in ten said they support removal of combat troops from that country by the end of this year.

And although 96% are proud of U.S. troops who served in Iraq, just one in three consider the war a victory and more than half call it a stalemate.

CNN Poll: Americans agree on bringing troops home from Iraq – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs


Just a recent poll. Doesn't answer the question, but gives a snap shot of the currant thinking.
 
Boo Radley said:
Yes, you have a limited view, limited to only how you preceive what happened to you. You did not get the entire waterboarding experience, and,again, those who crearted it and ran it say you did not. Now, perhaps you think you know more than they do. I suspect they would laugh at that, but it is not likley that you know as much as you think you do. You we given but a taste, nothing more. You really should read what they say.
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Oh, Boo, you crack me up. You see, I have access to personal expirience with the subject matter and the same access to the stories and reports that you have. That makes my view wider than yours, not narrower. You keep citing "those that created it" when in reality, all you've read is the opinion of some agenda driven retired officers...and you can't see that. You don't know anything about SERE, the history of it, or have any idea who created it. It wasn't just a person, or even a handfull of people...and it has changed dramatically since it's inception. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Again, tell yourself what you have to keep your beliefs affirmed, but you've been given fact. The spin is on your part as you try to hide from the truth.
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What fact? What actual fact have you given? I showed you the actual polling that shows world opinion of America improving...you've shown nothing to the opposite. Tell yourself whatever you must, but you're just buying the spin.
 
Boo Radley said:
That would be true if the outcome was what made it good or bad. But even if Iraq becomes heaven on earth, that would not justify what was done or paid for it. Sorry.
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Of course it would.
 
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