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Is the OWS against Capitalism?

Is the OWS Movement against Capitalism?


  • Total voters
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My only suggestion to you would be to ignore the rantings, ravings and useless actions of the various Occupy groups and look to those who influence, direct and control them. They have their own agenda and it is most assuredly an anti-capitalist agenda.

Yeah, anger is usually not very specific and well defined. Someone will take advantage of it and place himself at the top of such a movement. And often enough, his plans are not even in the interests of his followers.

Capitalism will certainly attempt to buy these protests. Selling shirts with Ché on them is a good business and it will work well, as long as the anger doesn't grow too big. But nobody knows what could happen if it does. We'll see if the system has the capacity for reform.
 
Yeah, anger is usually not very specific and well defined. Someone will take advantage of it and place himself at the top of such a movement. And often enough, his plans are not even in the interests of his followers.

Capitalism will certainly attempt to buy these protests. Selling shirts with Ché on them is a good business and it will work well, as long as the anger doesn't grow too big. But nobody knows what could happen if it does. We'll see if the system has the capacity for reform.

You should probably research Adbusters.
 
Do you really think all the other Occupy groups are signing on to the NYCGA? I haven't seen this.

The web site I linked to seem to have their own agenda...they state in the link I provided that "We're not a subcommittee of the NYCGA nor affiliated with Adbusters, anonymous or any other organization.".

Heck, the following site...not affiliated with NYCGA seems to have as much relevance: Occupy Wall Street Demands - coupmedia.org And even THEY don't speak for anyone.


Look, these guys all pride themselves on being leaderless. That means you can't point to any one group and call them the official word. The utterances of any one particular group applies to that group only.

As you learn more about the OWS movement you will find out that all official positions come from the NYC General Assembly of the OWS movement:

"This document was accepted by the NYC General Assembly on September 29, 2011

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*
To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!"

Declaration of the Occupation of New York City | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street

And join they did, all over the country!
 
An anti consumerist magazine?
I'm subscribed to it... Its some real "radical" ****.... :roll:

Good...that's a start. At least you have some familiarity with them. Now dig deeper. Who is Lasn? Who is White? What is their connection with OWS?

When you have a better understanding of the answers to these questions, you will understand why I made my first post in this thread in answer to the thread title's question:

If you are referring to the useful idiots in the parks...who knows and who cares?

If you are referring to those who started this whole shebang...of course they are.
 
Good...that's a start. At least you have some familiarity with them. Now dig deeper. Who is Lasn?
Founder of the magazine..
He called for OWS movement quite a while ago but he takes no credit it for it.

Who is White? What is their connection with OWS?
No idea who White is. But he must be real scary!

When you have a better understanding of the answers to these questions, you will understand why I made my first post in this thread in answer to the thread title's question:
An anti consumerist who owns a magazine called ad busters... Real scary!
 
Founder of the magazine..
He called for OWS movement quite a while ago but he takes no credit it for it.


No idea who White is. But he must be real scary!


An anti consumerist who owns a magazine called ad busters... Real scary!

You need to dig a little deeper.

There are a number of links provided in this thread that are illuminating, though I'll understand if you decline to sift through the large number of posts to find them.

But, until you make a serious effort to become informed, you'll understand if I give little attention to your comments.
 
You need to dig a little deeper.
**** i havent got deep enough in the rabit hole?
Why dont you just tell me?

There are a number of links provided in this thread that are illuminating, though I'll understand if you decline to sift through the large number of posts to find them.

But, until you make a serious effort to become informed, you'll understand if I give little attention to your comments.

What is he a stalinist loving maoist?
 
**** i havent got deep enough in the rabit hole?
Why dont you just tell me?



What is he a stalinist loving maoist?

Sorry, dude, I'm not going to rehash a thread's worth of discussion for your benefit. It's all here in this thread and in others. If you have any interest beyond your childish, sarcastic one-liners that's up to you.
 
Sorry, dude, I'm not going to rehash a thread's worth of discussion for your benefit. It's all here in this thread and in others. If you have any interest beyond your childish, sarcastic one-liners that's up to you.

I think your just very very scared of something when there is nothing to be scared of.
 
As you learn more about the OWS movement you will find out that all official positions come from the NYC General Assembly of the OWS movement:

"This document was accepted by the NYC General Assembly on September 29, 2011

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*
To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!"

Declaration of the Occupation of New York City | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street

And join they did, all over the country!
It is interesting, and it certainly proves my point if this is the offical document. They are protesting greed, but they are greedy themselves.

1. There are no demands, no proposals, no solutions.

2. It shows how deluded they are. First of who is they? I think they think about the 1%. But many politicians are not in the 1%, and they are not a unified group. Only parts of the group may be responsible for the ill. Also, discrimination is a problem for the whole 100%.

Some of them are nonissues. The food supply is not posioned.

Others are just ridiculous. No one is holding back renewable energy. It is just many who (and that includes the 99%) don't want to spend taxpayers money on green subsidies.

Problem with these protestors is that they are just as dumb as the average Fox News watchers, but think they are smart.

With propaganda from the left they have started to believe that the cause of all of America's problems is the 1% and if they just paid their fair share then the wages wouldn't stagnate. Except that isn't true. The 1% have around 15% of the private economy. If you include the public, then they will just have 8-10% of the economy. Reducing this percentage by for instance 2-4% and redistributing it to the rest will not make the average American richer.

3. It shows how greedy they are. Calling it Illegal foreclosure process. First it is definitively not illegal, because then they could have been sued. Secondly, foreclosure means that you can't pay your debt. It just natural that you have to sell your house if you can't afford to pay your house mortage.

Also, the student debt issue comes up. If they don't want to spend so much money for no return, attend your state university, or get a degree that has a value. Don't expect to go to a private university, take a useless degree and then be mad because you have to pay back your debt.
 
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All this bickering is really pointless since OWS is a lame duck. OWS failed to gain the needed mass to go anywhere. OWS refuses to be a part of our system and work within it. OWS dances with Anti-Capitalists then tries to say that nothing happened that they are true Capitalists that they just want to fix Capitalism.

SO lets call their obvious bluff, lets call it what these posters assert that it is: The Occupy Pro-Capitalism movement. How do you guys feel about that? Maybe you could go to a protest and carry that sign and see who starts calling you an agent provocateur. Seriously you cant have it both ways.
 
Good...that's a start. At least you have some familiarity with them. Now dig deeper. Who is Lasn? Who is White? What is their connection with OWS?

When you have a better understanding of the answers to these questions, you will understand why I made my first post in this thread in answer to the thread title's question:

What makes your conspiracy theories laughable to all but the far right, is that the majority of Americans support the main thrust of Occupy Wall Street. Poll after poll we see the majority supports less corporate money for politicians, greater regulation of the banking industry and elimination of the tax cuts for the rich.
 
I think your just very very scared of something when there is nothing to be scared of.

There is a song about what's scary about the nationwide protests -

**Warning adult image involving the middle finger**

 
"What many thought was a small protest that would soon peter out is now in its third month and still going strong throughout the country. Seattlest has been there since the beginning, something every one of us involved in the site are proud of. Today's photo is just one of thousands that have drawn readers in and helped understand the struggles going on daily in the Occupy Wall Street movement."

Countdown in Photos #15: Occupy Wall Street: Seattlest
 
What makes your conspiracy theories laughable to all but the far right, is that the majority of Americans support the main thrust of Occupy Wall Street. Poll after poll we see the majority supports less corporate money for politicians, greater regulation of the banking industry and elimination of the tax cuts for the rich.
First off, these are not the only issues OWS care about. Over to the issues.

Who supports corporate money for politicans?

Regulation is a no brainer, but what kind of regulation?

And tax increases for the rich is due to the fact most Americans are not rich. It is easy to say, let's someone else do it. But that kind of tax increase will just be a drop in the sea, so after the rich tax increase. They will have to increase the taxes again, and that will have to be done to everyone.

If this happens tax increases have now been raised twice for rich Americans federally, but don't forget state taxes and the tax increase from the health care legislation. Many of the rich people will invest abroad or not invest at all, because why invest when the government takes most of your income.
 
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First off, these are not the only issues OWS care about. Over to the issues.

Who supports corporate money for politicans?

The same ones opposed to campaign finance reform and the removal of corporate personhood - the GOP.

Regulation is a no brainer, but what kind of regulation?

HR 1489 to once again establish a firewall between investment banks and commercial banks that prevented banks too big to fail for a half century until the Glass-Steagall bill was repealed - HR 1489 also opposed by the GOP.

And tax increases for the rich is due to the fact most Americans are not rich. It is easy to say, let's someone else do it. But that kind of tax increase will just be a drop in the sea, so after the rich tax increase. They will have to increase the taxes again, and that will have to be done to everyone.

Taxes for the rich were decreased by popular vote when the people once believed in supply side economics. Now, after 30 year record of failure, people see that was BS! Yet, the GOP still promotes that as their only solution.

If this happens tax increases have now been raised twice for rich Americans federally, but don't forget state taxes and the tax increase from the health care legislation. Many of the rich people will invest abroad or not invest at all, because why invest when the government takes most of your income.

Thanks to Bush tax cuts, we still provide tax breaks to companies to outsource US jobs. The Democrats have written a bill to end the tax cuts for outsourcing jobs. Guess who is opposing it? You got it, the GOP!
 
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The same ones opposed to campaign finance reform and the removal of corporate personhood - the GOP.
To oppose corporate personhood is just childish. Doesn't corporations have rights and responsibilities. That is corporate personhood, it does not mean they are the same as people's rights.

Neither party has reduced corporate money for politicans. Not even the fformer messiah Obama. Just because the GOP has been corrupted doesn't mean conservatives like the corruption.

HR 1489 to once again establish a firewall between investment banks and commercial banks that prevented banks too big to fail for a half century until the Glass-Steagall bill was repealed - HR 1489 also opposed by the GOP.
This has nothing to do with too big too fail.

But as I said, there are disagreements on what kind of regulation is needed. I do not know the details of this bill, and can't say if it is good or bad.



Taxes for the rich were decreased by popular vote when the people once believed in supply side economics. Now, after 30 year record of failure, people see that was BS! Yet, the GOP still promotes that as their only solution.
Incorrect, they are demanding no tax increases at all, which includes the rich. And do you honestly believe the tax increase on the rich will make any difference what so ever. When Reagan deacresed taxes on the rich from 50% to 28%. Did the poor suddenly become poorer. Did the revenue drop? Did the wages of the poor drop?

Low tax rates on rich people is not Americas problem. Problem is runaway costs, a declining work ethic and cyclic poverty. Costs for health care, higher education and property in many areas have dramatically increased the last 30 years. That is what people are really complaining about. To increase taxes on the rich will solve nothing.

Thanks to Bush tax cuts, we still provide tax breaks to companies to outsource US jobs. The Democrats have written a bill to end the tax cuts for outsourcing jobs. Guess who is opposing it? You got it, the GOP!
First off, every company gets tax deductions. And Obama is not in favor of reversing Bush Tax cuts. If he were, I think he would be doing his job.

End tax deductions to corporations who outsource. Sounds nice, but have you thought about the unintended consequences? For instance that companies will rather move their whole business abroad. Or choose to invest abroad, because many companies need or may need in the future to outsource some services that are too expensive to do in America.

This is the problem with the left in America. They don't think about their policies. Everything that sounds good, is good.
 
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I think your just very very scared of something when there is nothing to be scared of.

Scared??? Of what?

Scared of a bunch of useless idiots, camping in the parks...who can't even get the Police to crack their skulls a bit?

No, Sir...I am not scared of the useful idiots. I AM wary of those calling their shots, though. They are the ones who want to end our capitalists system.
 
What makes your conspiracy theories laughable to all but the far right, is that the majority of Americans support the main thrust of Occupy Wall Street. Poll after poll we see the majority supports less corporate money for politicians, greater regulation of the banking industry and elimination of the tax cuts for the rich.

I don't blame you for your opinion.

As a useful idiot, you don't even know you are being manipulated...or by whom.

Be that as it may, though, what kind of support do y'all think you have from the 99% whom you claim to represent?

I suspect that support is next to nothing.
 
I don't blame you for your opinion.

As a useful idiot, you don't even know you are being manipulated...or by whom.

Be that as it may, though, what kind of support do y'all think you have from the 99% whom you claim to represent?

I suspect that support is next to nothing.

Aside from calling another poster an idiot I agree, that support is more important then claiming that you are representing people. The KKK and other racists groups claim to be representing white people, which means nothing other than anger against those white supremacy groups for being so arrogant in assuming that they can talk for all white people. OWS is the same they do not represent the 99%, they only claim to. If they have no support from the 99% they dont speak for them.

But lets look at reality for a second. Asserting that the 1% vs the 99% is only going to promote conflict. It is obvious propaganda to promote the tired Leftist agenda that pits the workers against the wealthy. Maybe some of you posters can lie to yourselves or us and pretend that there is no obvious connection between Leftist slogans like "power to the people!" and "We are the 99%!" but I cannot ignore something so damn obvious. And it is an insult to my intelligence that people try to pass that line of BS as if I would not notice.

All I have to do to prove the point that OWS is an Leftist movement hell bent on destroying America and imposing Leftist rule, is to look at the sites that are all abuzz talking about OWS. Take a look at the normal Progressive sites. they are full of many more posters than the few here trying to claim that OWS is not Leftist in nature or anti-Capitalist. Look at all of the signs that were in the protests. There is no conspiracy theory when its all out there in the open like it is in the occupy movement. Lying and trying to claim that OWS is just an movement by normal Americans that are fed up with Wall Streets corruption of the Government is a bit over the top. It might work on the under educated first time voters that thought Obama was going to save the world, but the rest of us know better.

And thats where OWS goes wrong they have not made any effort to include the Right in their little movement. In fact they aim just about all of their rhetoric at the Right. SO much in fact that me an Independent that is an Atheist and opposed myself against a lot of Rightwing bull, gets accused of being a Rightwinger just because I am opposed to OWS for being an Leftist attempt to cause an uprising. Obviously these people are subscribing to the mentality of 'either you are with us or against us'.

In the end OWS represents conflict, and that is all they will ever gain. No one will see OWS as the proper direction that this country should be going, well unless you believe in Anarchy or Communism. OWS is not listening to the so called 99%, instead they are trying to tell the 99% to hate the 1%, when in reality any movement by and for the people should represent the 100% and no less. Equality takes in account 100% of the population, not some percentage of the population. OWS is Americas enemy if our goal as an nation is equality, liberty and justice for all..
 
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Aside from calling another poster an idiot I agree, that support is more important then claiming that you are representing people. The KKK and other racists groups claim to be representing white people, which means nothing other than anger against those white supremacy groups for being so arrogant in assuming that they can talk for all white people. OWS is the same they do not represent the 99%, they only claim to. If they have no support from the 99% they dont speak for them.

But lets look at reality for a second. Asserting that the 1% vs the 99% is only going to promote conflict. It is obvious propaganda to promote the tired Leftist agenda that pits the workers against the wealthy. Maybe some of you posters can lie to yourselves or us and pretend that there is no obvious connection between Leftist slogans like "power to the people!" and "We are the 99%!" but I cannot ignore something so damn obvious. And it is an insult to my intelligence that people try to pass that line of BS as if I would not notice.

All I have to do to prove the point that OWS is an Leftist movement hell bent on destroying America and imposing Leftist rule, is to look at the sites that are all abuzz talking about OWS. Take a look at the normal Progressive sites. they are full of many more posters than the few here trying to claim that OWS is not Leftist in nature or anti-Capitalist. Look at all of the signs that were in the protests. There is no conspiracy theory when its all out there in the open like it is in the occupy movement. Lying and trying to claim that OWS is just an movement by normal Americans that are fed up with Wall Streets corruption of the Government is a bit over the top. It might work on the under educated first time voters that thought Obama was going to save the world, but the rest of us know better.

And thats where OWS goes wrong they have not made any effort to include the Right in their little movement. In fact they aim just about all of their rhetoric at the Right. SO much in fact that me an Independent that is an Atheist and opposed myself against a lot of Rightwing bull, gets accused of being a Rightwinger just because I am opposed to OWS for being an Leftist attempt to cause an uprising. Obviously these people are subscribing to the mentality of 'either you are with us or against us'.

In the end OWS represents conflict, and that is all they will ever gain. No one will see OWS as the proper direction that this country should be going, well unless you believe in Anarchy or Communism. OWS is not listening to the so called 99%, instead they are trying to tell the 99% to hate the 1%, when in reality any movement by and for the people should represent the 100% and no less. Equality takes in account 100% of the population, not some percentage of the population. OWS is Americas enemy if our goal as an nation is equality, liberty and justice for all..

I didn't call that member an idiot...I called him a useful idiot.

To understand the distinction, do a Google search of useful idiot...read the Wiki.
 
I didn't call that member an idiot...I called him a useful idiot.

To understand the distinction, do a Google search of useful idiot...read the Wiki.
I admit that I used you so that I could post the definition of useful idiot, although I guessed that you would post it. lol

In political jargon, useful idiot is a pejorative term used to describe people perceived as propagandists for a cause whose goals they do not understand, who are used cynically by the leaders of the cause.
The term was originally used to describe Soviet sympathizers in Western countries. The implication is that although the people in question naïvely thought of themselves as an ally of the Soviet Union, they were actually held in contempt and were being cynically used.
The use of the term in political discourse has since been extended to other propagandists, especially those who are seen to unwittingly support a malignant cause which they naively believe to be a force for good.

Skinheads are useful idiots as well. They seem to be oblivious to the fact that if Nazism was imposed skinheads would be the first to go to the gas chamber.
 
I admit that I used you so that I could post the definition of useful idiot, although I guessed that you would post it. lol



Skinheads are useful idiots as well. They seem to be oblivious to the fact that if Nazism was imposed skinheads would be the first to go to the gas chamber.
Yes, of course. You can see the skinheads by the score on these threads standing in lines to go to gas chambers. An excellent point!
 
Scared??? Of what?

Scared of a bunch of useless idiots, camping in the parks...who can't even get the Police to crack their skulls a bit?

No, Sir...I am not scared of the useful idiots. I AM wary of those calling their shots, though. They are the ones who want to end our capitalists system.

If they are "useless idiots" then why are you going to great lengths to call them out on some ignorant, promoting fear mongering?
 
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