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Is the OWS against Capitalism?

Is the OWS Movement against Capitalism?


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Do they have any manifesto ?

OWS Mission Statement:

"As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments.
We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known."

See the remainder of their Mission Statement here: Occupy Wall St. releases their mission statement… « The Devout Infidel
 
actually, its not that revolutionary.

For a half century it produced the strongest middle class in our history!!! But, the 40's thru the 70's in the US are now considered the socialism years of the US that many of the far right are terrified of for some reason.
 
Yes and the questions you go on to ask are not mutually exclusive. This may surprise you, but Ron Paul supporters can participate in GA's *AND* hold signs. And as I pointed out, 19% of republicans say they support OWS
You claim 19% but you havent provided any proof. The latest Gallup poll said 9%. But still the majority is Left wing. And since one has to look very hard to here what that 9% has to say are they even relevant to the movement?
 
You claim 19% but you havent provided any proof. The latest Gallup poll said 9%. But still the majority is Left wing. And since one has to look very hard to here what that 9% has to say are they even relevant to the movement?

I posted a link, which you ignored. It's 19%
 
Well, the terms are pretty subjective, that's for sure. Nevertheless the general consensus is that there are different strains of anarchism and that anarchism as a whole is not exclusive to the left or the right.

Yup. That's my point as well.
 
I think that you need to do some research on type of Anarchism. When you watch vids of the protesters you will notice some people with things like mohawks colored hair tats etc. These people are what is known as Anarcho-Punks. Many Anarcho punks are Anarcho Communists. True Communism is the opposite of Anarchy at least if we were talking about purest Anarchy and we are not. Here is their symbol:

257px-Anarchist-Communist_Symbol.jpg

It's amazing that you can discern the nuance of a person's political philosophy solely from their hairstyle.
 
You claim 19% but you havent provided any proof. The latest Gallup poll said 9%. But still the majority is Left wing. And since one has to look very hard to here what that 9% has to say are they even relevant to the movement?

You haven't provided how many proof of the how much of the percentage of OWSers with mohawks are anarchists. Or, of how many of those OWSers with mohawks and are anarchists are anarcho-punks. Or, of how many of those OWSers with mohawks and are anarchists and are anarcho-punks are anarcho-communists. Or, of how many of those OWSers with mohawks and are anarchists and are anarcho-punks and are anarcho-communists are also true communists.
 
Anarchist are a particularly goofy set of useful idiots who are invariably co-opted when useful then ideologically discarded by the far left once their goals have been achieved.
 
OWS Mission Statement:

"As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments.
We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known."

See the remainder of their Mission Statement here: Occupy Wall St. releases their mission statement… « The Devout Infidel

Who wrote that?
 
Anarcho-syndicalism is still against government.



So anarcho-syndicalists and anarcho-capitalists are still against government institutions. Where they differ, however, is how economic institutions should be organized.
Left anarchism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Left anarchism or left-wing anarchism refer to left-wing forms of anarchism. It posits a future society in which private property is replaced by reciprocity and non-hierarchical society.[1][2] The term left anarchism is sometimes used synonymously with libertarian socialism,[3] left libertarianism, or socialist anarchism.[4]
Left-wing anarchists have been visible in anti-globalization protests, such as in Seattle in 1999 against the World Trade Organization.[5]
Ulrike Heider, a syndicalist, categorizes anarchism into left anarchism, right anarchism (anarcho-capitalism), and green anarchism.[6][page needed] Heider's work has been strongly criticised by anarchist academics including Bryan Caplan and Murray Bookchin for the allegedly poor quality of its research and presentation.[7][8] Left-wing anarchism is distinguished from free-market anarchism[9] and right-wing anarchism (such as that of Murray Rothbard).[10]
 
Really? and where would I look for these people? If you have some link that sheds some light on this subject dont by shy share it.

BTW I do have theories on who and what is behind the recent Leftist movements but I have nothing concrete to share. So any input you have would be appreciated. Because it is obvious that this is an organized attack on America IMO.

A good place to start is always Wiki:

Origin

In a July 13, 2011 blog post, the Canadian-based Adbusters Foundation, best known for its advertisement-free anti-consumerist magazine Adbusters, proposed a peaceful occupation of Wall Street to protest corporate influence on democracy, the absence of legal repercussions for the bankers behind the recent global financial crisis, and a growing disparity in wealth.[5][6] They sought to combine the symbolic location of the 2011 protests in Tahrir Square with the consensus decision making of the 2011 Spanish protests.[7] Adbusters' senior editor Micah White said they had suggested the protest via their email list and it "was spontaneously taken up by all the people of the world.”[6] Adbusters' website said that from their "one simple demand, a presidential commission to separate money from politics," they would "start setting the agenda for a new America."[8] They promoted the protest with a poster featuring a dancer atop Wall Street's iconic Charging Bull.[9][10]

The internet group Anonymous encouraged its readers to take part in the protests, calling protesters to "flood lower Manhattan, set up tents, kitchens, peaceful barricades and occupy Wall Street."[11][12] Other groups began to join in the organization of the protest, including the U.S. Day of Rage,[13] and the NYC General Assembly, the governing body of the Occupy Wall Street group.[14] An Occupy Wall Street page on Facebook began on September 19 with a YouTube video of the early protests, and by September 22, it had reached critical mass. By mid-October, Facebook listed 125 Occupy-related pages and roughly one in every 500 hashtags used on Twitter, all around the world, was the movement's own #OWS.[15]

Adbusters' Kalle Lasn, when asked why it took three years after the implosion of Lehman Brothers' for people to begin protesting, said that after the election of President Barack Obama there was a feeling among the young that he would pass laws to regulate the banking system and "take these financial fraudsters and bring them to justice." However, as time passed, "the feeling that he's a bit of a gutless wonder slowly crept in" and they lost their hope that his election would result in change.[16]

The protest was begun at Zuccotti Park since it was private property and police could not legally force protesters to leave without being requested to do so by the property owner.[17] At a press conference held on the same day as the protests began, New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg explained, "People have a right to protest, and if they want to protest, we'll be happy to make sure they have locations to do it."[14]

Immediate prototypes for OWS are the British student protests of 2010, Greece's and Spain's anti-austerity protests of the "indignados" (indignants), as well as the Middle Easts' Arab Spring protests. These antecedents have in common with OWS a reliance on social media and electronic messaging to circumvent the authorities, as well as the feeling that financial institutions, corporations, and the political elite have been malfeasant in their behavior toward youth and the middle class.[18][19] Occupy Wall Street, in turn, gave rise to the Occupy movement in the United States and around the world.[20][21][22]
Occupy Wall Street - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This will lead you to Adbusters and it's leader, Kalle Lasn. He and his trusted associates continue to direct the course of OWS behind the scenes.
 
A good place to start is always Wiki:



This will lead you to Adbusters and it's leader, Kalle Lasn. He and his trusted associates continue to direct the course of OWS behind the scenes.
Adbusters floated the idea the NYCGA actually acted on the idea.
 
The capitalist system is ultimately unstable, because it cannot endlessly sustain profits (exert from Das Kapital).

Think about it for a minute. All Wall Street does is buy commodities to turn around and sell them for a profit. Eventually, the market "corrects itself" and many are left holding the bag. This is repeated over and over. There is no real value added to any of these products, or company shares, when they are sold for the higher amounts. The higher value is speculation at best. Then the corporations will create added value by trimming back on the cost of production in order to increase the profit line. This can be done with automation, pay decreases and layoffs, or out sourcing the jobs to cheap labor.

All of which undermine the middle class. The middle class can't fight back because they don't qualify for the bank loans necessary to start businesses, nor do they know how to go about it in many cases. Or maybe they just like working 40 hr. weeks instead of working on their new business every waking moment. Not everyone can think of something that they love that much.

So carry on Wall Street, Banks, and corporations, I'm retiring from this game in 5.5 years. I've seen it go back and forth from bad to nasty my whole working life. Just remember that when you squeeze every last red cent of profit out of your cheap junk, that there may be a large group of young strong people waiting in the wings to take your pretty things away.
 
Adbusters floated the idea the NYCGA actually acted on the idea.

That's why I called the people in the parks useful idiots. I don't give a wit about what they say or do. I look to those behind them...directing them. And those behind them are against capitalism.
 
For a half century it produced the strongest middle class in our history!!!

It did. So in the 40's through 70's we had universal health care, free college education, and publicly financed elections?

Becaues it was those things he was responding to stating they are "not that revolutionary" in regards to the current American system. I apparently missed all the free college and health care in my reading of the history books for that period of time. Mind pointing me to where those things happened and how they caused the "strongest middle class in our history"?
 
That's why I called the people in the parks useful idiots. I don't give a wit about what they say or do. I look to those behind them...directing them. And those behind them are against capitalism.

Source?
Proof?
 
Read my signature.

/thread

Your /thread would work better if Matt didn't make broad generalizations about what "people" want that is clearly documented to be untrue. If he wants to say the movement by and large doesn't want handouts then more power to him...I don't think handouts are the groups primary purpose. But there most assuredly ARE people within the movement who absolutely DO want a handout.
 
It did. So in the 40's through 70's we had universal health care, free college education, and publicly financed elections? Becaues it was those things he was responding to stating they are "not that revolutionary" in regards to the current American system. I apparently missed all the free college and health care in my reading of the history books for that period of time. Mind pointing me to where those things happened and how they caused the "strongest middle class in our history"?

We don't have those things now, so they are not the cause of our current financial problems. What we did have then, that we don't have now, are more progressive tax rates and regulations that prevented commercial banks from combining with investment banks. What is so revolutionary about that???

UHC, extending public support of education from HS to college, and publicly financed elections, are needed to address today's problems.
 
We don't have those things now

Exactly, which is why when he said that all they wanted was "simply...." and he listed off a dozen things including those three I told him those weren't exactly "Simple" demands to want. His response was that they weren't revolutionary...which you responded to with some winding speech about how correct he is because that's what made us great in the 40's through 70's.

I'm just trying to figure out if you were actually responding to the conversation line that you quoted, or if you just quoted something randomly and went off on a whole different tangent.

UHC, extending public support of education from HS to college, and publicly financed elections, are needed to address today's problems.

Three massive changes to how all three things have functioned for decades upon decades in this country. Those aren't "Simply" type of demands. Those are major and significant shifts to how the country operates. You can BELIEVE they're necessary all you want...that doesn't make them any more "simple" to actually occur.
 
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Exactly, which is why when he said that all they wanted was "simply...." and he listed off a dozen things including those three I told him those weren't exactly "Simple" demands to want. His response was that they weren't revolutionary...which you responded to with some winding speech about how correct he is because that's what made us great in the 40's through 70's.

I'm just trying to figure out if you were actually responding to the conversation line that you quoted, or if you just quoted something randomly and went off on a whole different tangent.



Three massive changes to how all three things have functioned for decades upon decades in this country. Those aren't "Simply" type of demands. Those are major and significant shifts to how the country operates. You can BELIEVE they're necessary all you want...that doesn't make them any more "simple" to actually occur.

To me, the most important things to address first are the restoration of our progressive tax rates (necessary for our consumer based economy), and re-regulating the banks (that put public funds at risk). I would agree the other 3 items you reference are not simple, but inevitably will have to be addressed for a sustainable economy. Glad to see the OWS has focused public debate on these issues.
 
Public debate on universal health care and publicly financed elections have been going on steadily far, far longer than OWS has existed.

People aren't really "publicly debating" giving everyone free college education. A few idiots within the movement think they're entitled to it and most everyone else scoffs at their idiocy
 
Public debate on universal health care and publicly financed elections have been going on steadily far, far longer than OWS has existed.

People aren't really "publicly debating" giving everyone free college education. A few idiots within the movement think they're entitled to it and most everyone else scoffs at their idiocy

It wasn't front page news until the OWS, which displaced the debate over the deficit. You are right that free college education is not the thrust of the debate, it is the much more important restoration of progressive tax rates and re-regulation of the banks.

What do you find so revolutionary about restoring some of the progressiveness of our tax rates and re-regulation of the banks?
 
That's why I called the people in the parks useful idiots. I don't give a wit about what they say or do. I look to those behind them...directing them. And those behind them are against capitalism.

Except that the OWS movement isn't being "directed" by anyone at this point. Yes, Adbusters came up with the idea, and catalyzed the movement, but they don't now and never really have had any substantive control over OWS. If you paid any attention to what they said or did, this would probably be obvious to you.
 
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