Politically Correct?

evanescence said:

You haven't been twisting his words. That's just how he debates. As soon as he gets backed into a corner, he automatically accuses his opponent of "twisting his words." Or he calls them a liar. His position on political correctness is as illogical as Bill Clinton's definition of the word "is." On one hand, he doesn't "feel the need to conform" and yet some how that's different from not conforming. Don't worry about it. Your position is sensible and easily understood.

Personally, I don't care if other people want to be PC. As long as they don't expect me to go along with it.

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To be 100% honest I was also being dodgy by changing the argument from "feeling forced", which is not the correct term to being unconsciously pressured. Tucker picked up on my deception and retreat when he called me out on acting the fool. It's a way to not admit error, hehehe. Though I agree thedriveplay was in retro mode also. And you're right you can feel the pressure to conform without actually being aware that you're doing it but it's not what I literally said. I'm not as good at hairsplitting details as making an overall observation.

I want to correct a grammatical flaw with this paragraph.

Color perception is somewhat known but still a theory. It's similar to the theory of light travel, is it in waves, particles or both? We don't have based on our limitations the ability to explain it yet. Our concept of reality is confined to our biological ability to perceive and imagine. Is the universe really only what we perceive or something altogether more or different? For example "if a tree falls in a forest and no creature is around does it make a sound"? I say it makes the disruption of the air creating the percussive waves necessary to make noise but until an ear has perceived it no sound has been made. Meaning that our inaction-> (interaction) with the universe changes it's very nature and that perception is everything.

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evanescence said:

You haven't been twisting his words. That's just how he debates. As soon as he gets backed into a corner, he automatically accuses his opponent of "twisting his words." Or he calls them a liar. His position on political correctness is as illogical as Bill Clinton's definition of the word "is." On one hand, he doesn't "feel the need to conform" and yet some how that's different from not conforming. Don't worry about it. Your position is sensible and easily understood.

Personally, I don't care if other people want to be PC. As long as they don't expect me to go along with it.

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He actually did twist my words which you would have known if you had actually read the conversation instead of being so desperate for negative attention that you had to interject yourself into a conversation just to make a negative comment about a poster who hasn't had a conversation with you in at least a week. I also find it funny that while I made the same comments about grip as other posters, you only chose to insult me. Must of struck a nerve, eh?

grip said:

To be 100% honest I was also being dodgy by changing the argument from "feeling forced", which is not the correct term to being unconsciously pressured. Tucker picked up on my deception and retreat when he called me out on acting the fool. It's a way to not admit error, hehehe. Though I agree thedriveplay was in retro mode also. And you're right you can feel the pressure to conform without actually being aware that you're doing it but it's not what I literally said. I'm not as good at hairsplitting details as making an overall observation.

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Really? You want to tell me how so, since I essentially said the same thing to you as Tucker did?

theplaydrive said:

He actually did twist my words which you would have known if you had actually read the conversation instead of being so desperate for negative attention that you had to interject yourself into a conversation just to make a negative comment about a poster who hasn't had a conversation with you in at least a week. I also find it funny that while I made the same comments about grip as other posters, you only chose to insult me. Must of struck a nerve, eh?

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That's ironic.

No, I just call it how i see it. The fickleness of others is of no consequence to me.

theplaydrive said:

Really? You want to tell me how so, since I essentially said the same thing to you as Tucker did?

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retro= meaning to recede, pull back, withdraw from the continuation of the debate.

I'm not going to regurgitate the whole dialogue again but it was agreed the meaning of "force" in my context was pressure, being a form of force, not literally arm twisting. I'm not saying you ever did conform I'm saying "felt" any pressure. It would be almost impossible to say I'm so unaffected by others that I've never "felt" any pressure because I either agreed completely or absolutely rebelled as a non conformist. It's simply too extreme a statement because even to conform means to comply or act in accordance with a wish or command. Now if you lived in a cave or grew up in the wild then I would believe, otherwise almost nobody could convince me that they haven't felt some force of others be it parents, family, lover, spouse, child, schoolmates, friends, co-workers, boss, team mates etc. Even unconsciously we feel the effect of social pressure. Now to say "I make up my own mind and society doesn't choose for me" is believable but that society has no influence, nahh? I'd have to be a real Chucklehead to believe that. And I really don't care if you think I twisted your words, ears or limes I don't see how?

The original comment:

How many of you really hate PC but feel forced to conform or be an outcast?

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I never meant for it to be taken so literally or out of context, which is what I believe you did. Example, I use to smoke and there wasn't a place I turned that I didn't feel forced to quit and conform. But of course I ultimately chose to, like we all choose too. I wasn't literally "forced". We usually all want to belong to something, even the asshat club

I love this response... head slightly tilted up, looking off to an angle and a distance with regal dismissive demeanor

The fickleness of others is of no consequence to me.

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off with the peasants head! :lamo

evanescence said:

That's ironic.

No, I just call it how i see it. The fickleness of others is of no consequence to me.

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That's a strange thing to say, since you put yourself into a conversation that weren't privy to just in order to point out such perceived "fickleness". If you want to fake not worrying about other people, you're doing a poor job of it by talking about them when literally NO ONE in the conversation is talking to you. Like I said, desperate for negative attention.

grip said:

I never meant for it to be taken so literally or out of context, which is what I believe you did. Example, I use to smoke and there wasn't a place I turned that I didn't feel forced to quit and conform. But of course I ultimately chose to, like we all choose too. I wasn't literally "forced". We usually all want to belong to something, even the asshat club

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If you don't want people to interpret your sentence as meaning "forced to conform or be an outcast", then don't use the words rather than saying, "I never meant to say those words and you took them literally and out of context". That wasn't out of context. It was exactly what you said. You and eva belong together. Blame other people for responding to the words you put on the page.

theplaydrive said:

If you don't want people to interpret your sentence as meaning "forced to conform or be an outcast", then don't use the words rather than saying, "I never meant to say those words and you took them literally and out of context". That wasn't out of context. It was exactly what you said. You and eva belong together. Blame other people for responding to the words you put on the page.

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I see you left out the operative word "feel" in my quote when interpreted correctly means impressed upon. Are you being dense on purpose? I guess if I said "do you ever feel like you're losing your mind" you'd expect me go out looking for it? Come on now get a grip. Ooops you don't want one of those :shock:

BTW just for future reference I make a garlic/onion encrusted, rump roast with brown onion gravy that'll knock your tongue off its rollers!

grip said:

I see you left out the operative word "feel" in my quote when interpreted correctly means impressed upon. Are you being dense on purpose? I guess if I said "do you ever feel like you're losing your mind" you'd expect me go out looking for it? Come on now get a grip. Ooops you don't want one of those :shock:

BTW just for future reference I make a garlic/onion encrusted, rump roast with brown onion gravy that'll knock your tongue off its rollers!

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I didn't leave it out on purpose as in my earlier responses to you I explicitly said, "I don't FEEL forced to conform". Since you apparently can't understand my incredibly clear comments, I'll post someone else's incredibly clear comments in hope that you'll understand those instead.

Tucker Case said:

That's simply false. I have never felt forced to conform for the simple fact that I am not a coward who fears the ramifications of my choices. Only a coward who would rather play the victim instead of facing reality would feel "forced" to conform to societies norms. If you were to rephrase your comments to say "pressured" rather than "forced" there would be some truth to them, but since you have chosen to use the word "force" they are completely false.

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Moreover, my problem with your comments was not just mere "semantics" or some ****. You literally twisted my words when you criticized me for arguing that I "don't conform" when I actually never argued that. It's a shame that you start blaming others for your misinterpretation and word choice just because some attention whore comes in here and makes comments about a conversation she wasn't involved in.

theplaydrive said:

I didn't leave it out on purpose as in my earlier responses to you I explicitly said, "I don't FEEL forced to conform". Since you apparently can't understand my incredibly clear comments, I'll post someone else's incredibly clear comments in hope that you'll understand those instead.



Moreover, my problem with your comments was not just mere "semantics" or some ****. You literally twisted my words when you criticized me for arguing that I "don't conform" when I actually never argued that. It's a shame that you start blaming others for your misinterpretation and word choice just because some attention whore comes in here and makes comments about a conversation she wasn't involved in.

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But the word "pressure" literally means to exert force, so where's the difference. Listen, I know what you meant by "I don't feel forced to conform" being that others don't pressure you into your decisions. I'll will agree with that statement and show you the same courtesy given me.

grip said:

But the word "pressure" literally means to exert force, so where's the difference. Listen, I know what you meant by "I don't feel forced to conform" being that others don't pressure you into your decisions. I'll will agree with that statement and show you the same courtesy given me.

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Typically, though, pressure only means to apply force when it is used in the physical sense like "He applied pressure to the femoral artery after the accident to control the bleeding."

when used is a social context such as this, it usually means something more along the lines of peer pressure, which has more to do with wanting to belong than actual "force" (which would mean coercion by way of threatening harm of some sort). In that context, no force is exerted. It's actually an internal desire to fit in that influences the choices.

Clarifying what you meant by "force" was absolutely necessary because the meaning you chose was a less commonly used meaning for that context, and some would say it was actually inappropriate for that context. Since we know that you now meant something along the lines of pressure, instead of force, we can move forward about that concept more clearly.

I don't disagree with the idea that there is pressure to conform, but I would argue that the pressure is primarily self-imposed.

Tucker Case said:

Typically, though, pressure only means to apply force when it is used in the physical sense like "He applied pressure to the femoral artery after the accident to control the bleeding."

when used is a social context such as this, it usually means something more along the lines of peer pressure, which has more to do with wanting to belong than actual "force" (which would mean coercion by way of threatening harm of some sort). In that context, no force is exerted. It's actually an internal desire to fit in that influences the choices.

Clarifying what you meant by "force" was absolutely necessary because the meaning you chose was a less commonly used meaning for that context, and some would say it was actually inappropriate for that context. Since we know that you now meant something along the lines of pressure, instead of force, we can move forward about that concept more clearly.

I don't disagree with the idea that there is pressure to conform, but I would argue that the pressure is primarily self-imposed.

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Let's look at the statement again because I kind of stand by my explanation to tpd.

How many of you really hate PC but feel forced to conform or be an outcast?

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It doesn't say just "forced to conform or be an outcast". It says feel. Meaning from my interpretation do you ever feel it's an either or situation. Now I'm not talking about "written rule or law" breaking.
Example,, I don't like texting on smart phones but if I ever wanted to communicate this way back and forth with my niece I'd have to get a smart phone and text. So in this instance using a cell phone for texting in my perception is a form of PC or acceptance of a doofy fad. And to communicate with my niece in this method I would "feel" forced to conform, not merely pressured because I don't have a text phone. Have I conformed? Not yet I am an outcast but I may eventually should I see the need or desire. This was not the best example but it was what I meant.

I also wasn't allowed to smoke on the hospital grounds when I went to see a sick relative. Now it was their rule but while in my car I'm actually on my property and even the law recognizes that in search and seizure. So again I felt forced to not smoke or be an outcast from the hospital. PC IMO is a public stressor to conform to social standards based on popularity, rather than having any appeal grounded in common sense or law. I think we all have a flexible and superficial layer of our personality reserved for the sake of social charm to interact. And I don't think it means we've succumbed to PC nonsense it's simply trying to be reasonable with others but when it erodes into our freedom of choice we'll resist.

I've heard the word pressure used more in the figurative sense of "the pressure to perform is incredible", than say the physical force "the air pressure in the tire is correct".

I don't disagree with the idea that there is pressure to conform, but I would argue that the pressure is primarily self-imposed.

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Of course the pressure is primarily self-imposed but the source of internal pressure is generated mainly from outside of one's self.

Anyway, you're being too precise and cerebral about this.. my dad use to say too me "get my drift!" Now if I would of started parsing out his words, like does "drift" mean move sideways or floating in an undirected course or manner he would've slapped my mouth with the old Missouri soup bone. Then probably said, "how'd that float for ya"? You're tearing something simple apart and too open to interpretation in order to disprove it but not really making a strong, credible point based on common phraseology. I think most people would understand the statement and say "yeah, society does want you to run with a pack or suffer isolation and exclusion".

This is like the story of my super educated friend who overlooked the obvious and got lost in the details. And similar to what evanescence pointed out this is too simple a statement to turn the word "force" into a farce like Clinton's the meaning of "is, is". No matter how much you try and make it into a word salad exercise the overall meaning of my statement would be accepted probably more than not. You can hammer at this ad nauseam and I won't agree.

grip said:

Lakers = Fakers

Bird was the real deal, especially feeding the "post-up" shots, passes behind the back and popping 3 pointers all day.

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Magic and Worthy were "fakers"?

...and yes it does.

grip said:

Let's look at the statement again because I kind of stand by my explanation to tpd.



It doesn't say just "forced to conform or be an outcast". It says feel. Meaning from my interpretation do you ever feel it's an either or situation. Now I'm not talking about "written rule or law" breaking.
Example,, I don't like texting on smart phones but if I ever wanted to communicate this way back and forth with my niece I'd have to get a smart phone and text. So in this instance using a cell phone for texting in my perception is a form of PC or acceptance of a doofy fad. And to communicate with my niece in this method I would "feel" forced to conform, not merely pressured because I don't have a text phone. Have I conformed? Not yet I am an outcast but I may eventually should I see the need or desire. This was not the best example but it was what I meant.

I also wasn't allowed to smoke on the hospital grounds when I went to see a sick relative. Now it was their rule but while in my car I'm actually on my property and even the law recognizes that in search and seizure. So again I felt forced to not smoke or be an outcast from the hospital. PC IMO is a public stressor to conform to social standards based on popularity, rather than having any appeal grounded in common sense or law. I think we all have a flexible and superficial layer of our personality reserved for the sake of social charm to interact. And I don't think it means we've succumbed to PC nonsense it's simply trying to be reasonable with others but when it erodes into our freedom of choice we'll resist.

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True you did say "feel" but our responses also included feel as well.

Where you really went wrong, though, was in the following statement:

grip said:

I won't presume to know what's in your head but to say you're an unadulterated original that has never felt forced to conform one iota is either disingenuous or unrealistic.

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Again you use the qualifier about feeling, but you were making the blanket statement that everyone has felt forced to conform. It was in my response to that statement that I first made it a point to clarify the difference between feeling forced and feeling pressured, which are in that context very different things.

You'll also note that in this discussion I never said that people don't feel as though they are forced to conform. Instead, I pointed out the false nature of said feeling due to the fact that conformity is always done by choice.

I did say that I have never had that feeling.

grip said:

I've heard the word pressure used more in the figurative sense of "the pressure to perform is incredible", than say the physical force "the air pressure in the tire is correct".



Of course the pressure is primarily self-imposed but the source of internal pressure is generated mainly from outside of one's self.

Anyway, you're being too precise and cerebral about this.. my dad use to say too me "get my drift!" Now if I would of started parsing out his words, like does "drift" mean move sideways or floating in an undirected course or manner he would've slapped my mouth with the old Missouri soup bone. Then probably said, "how'd that float for ya"? You're tearing something simple apart and too open to interpretation in order to disprove it but not really making a strong, credible point based on common phraseology. I think most people would understand the statement and say "yeah, society does want you to run with a pack or suffer isolation and exclusion".

This is like the story of my super educated friend who overlooked the obvious and got lost in the details. And similar to what evanescence pointed out this is too simple a statement to turn the word "force" into a farce like Clinton's the meaning of "is, is". No matter how much you try and make it into a word salad exercise the overall meaning of my statement would be accepted probably more than not. You can hammer at this ad nauseam and I won't agree.

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The reason why the difference between "force" and pressure is important relates to the victim-mentality that has infested America these days. Language choices of this nature are important.

To explain by way of example: My wife likes to ask me to do things by saying "Do you want to..." Invariably, when those are the words uttered, it is something I would not want to do in a million years. But by phrasing the question this way she can avoid making it a request, and instead pretend that in some perverted view of reality, she is doing me afavor by asking me to do **** that I don't want to do.

People do this all the time. If someone asks you if you want to do something, it's almost always some **** they want you to do and they know you won't want to do. They are asking for a favor from you, but doing so in a way that turns it around as though they are doing you a favor.

Word choice does affect our psychological perspective on things. When we use a word like forced when we really mean pressured, it gives the illusion of helplessness to the situation. That illusion then fosters the victim mentality. It's a subliminal effect, but the research indicates it is a strong effect.


So what you consider a pointless nitpicking of terminology is actually something I consider a very important part in dispelling the illusion of helplessness that exists.

Tucker Case said:

The reason why the difference between "force" and pressure is important relates to the victim-mentality that has infested America these days. Language choices of this nature are important.

...

So what you consider a pointless nitpicking of terminology is actually something I consider a very important part in dispelling the illusion of helplessness that exists.

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This is exactly what it is. His initial comment about "force" made me picture a person who feels like he/she is a victim of society and in turn, unable to choose their own behavior because the big bad PC population is making them say African-American instead of black. I'm not that person. I don't feel forced to conform or say certain words in the least.

Have I ever been around people who would rather I change my language and behavior? Sure. But do I feel forced by them to change my behavior? No.

theplaydrive said:

This is exactly what it is. His initial comment about "force" made me picture a person who feels like he/she is a victim of society and in turn, unable to choose their own behavior because the big bad PC population is making them say African-American instead of black. I'm not that person. I don't feel forced to conform or say certain words in the least.

Have I ever been around people who would rather I change my language and behavior? Sure. But do I feel forced by them to change my behavior? No.

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Word. Force implies victim.

Tucker Case said:

True you did say "feel" but our responses also included feel as well.

Where you really went wrong, though, was in the following statement:



Again you use the qualifier about feeling, but you were making the blanket statement that everyone has felt forced to conform. It was in my response to that statement that I first made it a point to clarify the difference between feeling forced and feeling pressured, which are in that context very different things.

You'll also note that in this discussion I never said that people don't feel as though they are forced to conform. Instead, I pointed out the false nature of said feeling due to the fact that conformity is always done by choice.

I did say that I have never had that feeling.

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I ask it in an "either/or" question not as a covering statement of fact. The question was in say other words "Do you ever think if you don't do what others in society want even if you disagree, then you won't be able to hang out with them"? Would you agree that question essentially asks the same question as "How many of you really hate PC but feel forced to conform or be an outcast"? And then the replies were "I've never felt forced to do anything". I got to tell you my old man made me feel "forced", actually so did my boss and the Hartley brothers who beat the snot out of me. And then the little lady as you pointed out has that method of asking questions or saying "I was just mentioning it." Yah, that one makes my skin crawl because I can't out argue her and inevitably will be giving in. Only after I've whined and griped about it for awhile.

I am going to say everyone feels forced by law to conform to a certain degree. You can of course choose to break the law but if caught they will apply some force on you.

Tucker Case said:

The reason why the difference between "force" and pressure is important relates to the victim-mentality that has infested America these days. Language choices of this nature are important.

To explain by way of example: My wife likes to ask me to do things by saying "Do you want to..." Invariably, when those are the words uttered, it is something I would not want to do in a million years. But by phrasing the question this way she can avoid making it a request, and instead pretend that in some perverted view of reality, she is doing me afavor by asking me to do **** that I don't want to do.

People do this all the time. If someone asks you if you want to do something, it's almost always some **** they want you to do and they know you won't want to do. They are asking for a favor from you, but doing so in a way that turns it around as though they are doing you a favor.

Word choice does affect our psychological perspective on things. When we use a word like forced when we really mean pressured, it gives the illusion of helplessness to the situation. That illusion then fosters the victim mentality. It's a subliminal effect, but the research indicates it is a strong effect.


So what you consider a pointless nitpicking of terminology is actually something I consider a very important part in dispelling the illusion of helplessness that exists.

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Uh Huh... blah, blah, blah.

Let me make this perfectly clear, the rules are "I win you Lose"!

Hahahaha.... Ur being a dirty rotten, mudder tucker... lol

Ok I'm resorting to my comedy routine because this one is good, you got me.

Word choice does affect our psychological perspective on things.

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This is what I was actually eluding to as my argument but even though social pressure can build to a mental/emotional level of force it's still actually a clear choice. We are to a certain degree creatures of free will, which separates us somewhat from acting on strictly an instinctual animal level.

Bodhisattva said:

Magic and Worthy were "fakers"?

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No I couldn't think of a better rhyme. Bakers, takers, Quakers?

grip said:

I ask it in an "either/or" question not as a covering statement of fact. The question was in say other words "Do you ever think if you don't do what others in society want even if you disagree, then you won't be able to hang out with them"? Would you agree that question essentially asks the same question as "How many of you really hate PC but feel forced to conform or be an outcast"? And then the replies were "I've never felt forced to do anything". I got to tell you my old man made me feel "forced", actually so did my boss and the Hartley brothers who beat the snot out of me. And then the little lady as you pointed out has that method of asking questions or saying "I was just mentioning it." Yah, that one makes my skin crawl because I can't out argue her and inevitably will be giving in. Only after I've whined and griped about it for awhile.

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There's a difference between feeling forced to conform and feeling forced to do something. I wouldn't say that I've never felt as though I've been forced to do something. Just that I've never felt forced to conform.

I am going to say everyone feels forced by law to conform to a certain degree. You can of course choose to break the law but if caught they will apply some force on you.

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I actually don't feel forced by law to conform on certain things because of the reasoning I outlined earlier. More than a few times I've broken laws because I chose to break them. When I do this, though, I willingly accept any potential consequences from my violation of law. That's willingness to accept the consequences is what prevents the feeling of being forced.

Tucker Case said:

Yep, that's how that one works too. It has a bit to do with how our eyes compensate for micro-movements of the eye, too.


And I've seen a few good one's that do that same type of trick.

Watch this one for a little while as it alternates between a negative and black and white. Eventually you start seeing colors (I bet the effect is even better for people with normal color vision.)

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What does is it mean if you see colors right away?