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21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

Should an applicants race be a deciding factor for admission to a university?

  • Total voters
    68
  • Poll closed .
theplaydrive said:
I have no idea what you are trying to say here, but your initial post was a strawman. It's that simple.
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I think you know exactly what I am trying to say.
 
theplaydrive said:
I really don't so you can continue your conversation without me.
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If you're afraid of my beating the crap out of you in a debate, you shouldn't be. I'm way out of your league.

You really have nothing to prove.
 
cpwill said:
given the exceedingly high follow on drop out rate - what makes you think that we are helping them by sending them to a college that they are unprepared for, loading them with student debt, and then stacking the deck against them in the matter of actually earning a degree?

look, i'm all for education reform for our lower income earning populace; and it's true that minorities in particular get screwed by our public education system. but setting them up for failure later in the system isn't the answer.
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I think every person who has the ability to go to a college or university should have the opportunity to further thier education. I also agree with you if any student regardless of race is not prepared to go should not be put in a situation of where they are expected to keep up with the other students,

The real problem starts when a child enters school and is expected to achieve the same levels of work, we accept that children of the same age develope physically at a different rate but we expect those same children to develope intellectually at the same speed, our educational system needs to be totally revamped from kindergarden to graduation. A child should progress through school not based on age but on achieving the skills that are needed to progress. If skills are the basis for advancement then every young person who applies for college will be ready academically to continue his/her education, then a lottery system should be used for placement
 
theplaydrive said:
I haven't advocated that people should be let in on race alone. In fact, I stated the opposite. I haven't seen any other poster in this thread say that and as someone who knows many people who support AA, that's not a common argument of AA proponents. So like I said when you made your first post, you are just distorting actually AA arguments and then criticizing those.
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You're asking him to understand nuance. It's not that marginally qualified black students are being chosen over marginally qualified white students. Obviously the next Einstein is not getting into college because his spot was taken by a black kid who can't read.
 
Sig said:
If you're afraid of my beating the crap out of you in a debate, you shouldn't be. I'm way out of your league.

You really have nothing to prove.
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I'm very afraid. You hit the nail on the head.
 
 
Sig said:
Well then, I am sure you know better than any of us that there is something morally obscene about a welfare class white student with equal grades and SATs to that of an upper middle class black student, being passed over for admissions in favor of the black student for no other effective reason than the black student being black and the white student being white.
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So if their grades and qualifications are equal, how do you know race was the deciding factor?

The only place where this situation would happen is in the bottom rung of the class. You're talking about a kid who may or may not have gotten into college, especially in your scenario where they have equal grades. I'd like to hear your case for why they would take the white kid in your scenario. Remember, grades and SATs are equal.
 
rocket88 said:
You're asking him to understand nuance. It's not that marginally qualified black students are being chosen over marginally qualified white students. Obviously the next Einstein is not getting into college because his spot was taken by a black kid who can't read.
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Well yes, the unfairness perpetuated against future Einstein's is the greatest problem plaguing the education system.
 
Ikari said:
I know what it does do, I'm speaking from what I would like it to do. There is no reason even in theory to state that sports cannot be included somewhere in academia, particularly at the club level.
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There's every reason. By definition, playing sport is not academia.


It's just shouldn't be a focus or requirement (beyond maybe some required PE course). If you choose to participate in sports, great. You have to keep up your academics and you get no special privilege because of it; but you're free to engage in it. University is to be the highest level of academia, followed by College, and then Community College (Trade schools are less academia and more job training). One of the problems I see is that we've mixed it up and the standards that should be present at the University level are no longer there. I believe that University should be exceedingly elitist, and that it is reserved for the best and the brightest.
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So you want to argue utopia rather than reality. I think the OP is about reality, and in this reality, your arguement against AA doesn't stand.
 
EarlzP said:
I think every person who has the ability to go to a college or university should have the opportunity to further thier education
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they do. no one keeps you out. our problem isn't people who have the ability who can't go, it's people who are going who don't have the ability.
 
Thunder said:
this cultural problem is a direct result of slavery, segregation, and discrimination.
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Call 911, we have a conservative suffering from chronic political correctess accompanied by a severe episode of acute white guilt.

Be brave Thunder, I called the doctor and he said you should take a double dose of common sense and say three hail ronny reagans.

Let's all join hands and bow our heads in prayer for the full recovery of this poor afflicted soul......ha-ha-ha! I love this bar, uhhh place.
 
nonpareil said:
There's every reason. By definition, playing sport is not academia.
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True, but there is no reason to ban it. There is no reason to say that students can't play sports. They should be free to do so, understanding that they will get no special treatment because of it and all their academic responsibilities must be met. You can't stop people from forming clubs and arranging games though. And there is no reason to think you should.

nonpareil said:
So you want to argue utopia rather than reality. I think the OP is about reality, and in this reality, your arguement against AA doesn't stand.
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It's not just AA I'd get rid of. There are tons of dumbasses at the University level that I would say don't belong in University. They are not fit for high academia. As I said, University should be highly elitist, reserved for the best and brightest. The under performers can go to College or Community College.

The OP is not about reality, BTW, because AA ain't going nowhere. It's about what people would desire in the system and the standards they believe should be enforced. I am on that same page.
 
Empirica said:
Call 911, we have a conservative suffering from chronic political correctess accompanied by a severe episode of acute white guilt.

Be brave Thunder, I called the doctor and he said you should take a double dose of common sense and say three hail ronny reagans.

Let's all join hands and bow our heads in prayer for the full recovery of this poor afflicted soul......ha-ha-ha! I love this bar, uhhh place.
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He is not a conservative, I hope you are joking.

Nice try though.
 
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conservativeguy said:
The only way to fight racism is to engage in racism.....brilliant.
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I get it. Really the best way to fight racism is to do nothing based on those disadvantaged by race, better would be to do nothing based on race like using only SAT & ACT scores that we can believe have nothing to do with race, best would be to not even recognize race exists. Got it.
 
Blackdog said:
He is not a conservative, I hope you are joking.

Nice try though.
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Thanks for the clarification Blackdog.

I suspected he was either having an identity crisis or suffering from mass confusion.
 
Ah, the young girl first discovering Ayn Rand... and learning a whole new language. New meanings for old words....

Compassion is wicked.

Charity is brutality.

And non-existant racial bias admissions is...dum-dum-dum... racist...

Well, at least the first two aren't fantasies.

I think Ayn Rand basically attracts sheltered middle class kids with little or no real life experience and only faux accomplishments.
 
cpwill said:
they do. no one keeps you out. our problem isn't people who have the ability who can't go, it's people who are going who don't have the ability.
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I said and I quote
I think every person who has the ability to go to a college or university should have the opportunity to further thier education. I also agree with you if any student regardless of race is not prepared to go should not be put in a situation of where they are expected to keep up with the other students,

The real problem starts when a child enters school and is expected to achieve the same levels of work, we accept that children of the same age develope physically at a different rate but we expect those same children to develope intellectually at the same speed, our educational system needs to be totally revamped from kindergarden to graduation. A child should progress through school not based on age but on achieving the skills that are needed to progress. If skills are the basis for advancement then every young person who applies for college will be ready academically to continue his/her education, then a lottery system should be used for placement
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With the number of doctors, engineers and others that are needed we need to be sure that every person "USA citizen" who has the ability and desire to further thier education also has the opportunity, mommy and daddies money should not factor into what college and or university they attend. We need the brightest of our young people receiving the education needed to set the pace that will once again put the USA in the lead of technology and innovation. Our slide from being the best educated country in the world indicates a need to spend more on education and less on war and tax breaks for the rich.
 
Ive read articles about racism...newspapers, hundreds of forum topics on it...going back years and years...and the articles and reports back years ago...sound kinda the same as today...things have changed for the better...but if anyone thinks racism is going to end in their lifetime theyre in lalaland...blackdog said one thing that I believe is absolutley true...claiming every thing is racist or claming racism too often has the reverse effect...it doesnt help the situation at all.
The people that seem the most racist to me are the ones that apparently have not been around other races for much of their lives...if you were raised in a mixed area and went to a mixed school...were in the military with other races and worked with other races your entire life like I have....one thing becomes glaringly clear...and its so simple its silly to even say...There is good and bad in all of them....we all bleed and pee and have to eat.
 
theplaydrive said:
I haven't advocated that people should be let in on race alone. In fact, I stated the opposite. I haven't seen any other poster in this thread say that and as someone who knows many people who support AA, that's not a common argument of AA proponents. So like I said when you made your first post, you are just distorting actually AA arguments and then criticizing those.
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I don't mean to distort the opposing argument but race/ethnicity <--- For the PC crowed (you know who you are, lol) should play no role in getting a job or getting into school, period. I know no one is saying on race alone, but it should not be a factor. Without this the words "equal opportunity" mean nothing at all.
 
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Thunder said:
Segregation ended for the most part in the early 1980s.
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I seem to remember reading in the history books that segregation ended in the 50s, not the early 80s.
 
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jamesrage said:
I seem to remember reading in the history books that segregation ended in the 50s, not the early 80s.
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You sir are the reason I refuse to discuss evolution with most people. If we go by your understanding of the world, animals stopped evolving in the year 3500 BC, the US civil war happened because well, white people who owned slaves got bored and Hitler just woke up one morning and decided to start hating Jews.
 
Hatuey said:
You sir are the reason I refuse to discuss evolution with most people. If we go by your understanding of the world, animals stopped evolving in the year 3500 BC, the US civil war happened because well, white people who owned slaves got bored and Hitler just woke up one morning and decided to start hating Jews.
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Do you have any credible links that state sponsored racial segregation ended in the early 80s? I seem to recall in history class that Brown v. Board of Education(1954) ended state-sponsored racial segregation. I went to school with minorities in the early 80s. A decade or two before I went to school my mom,aunts and uncle went to school with minorities, of course in their day it was forced integration. I never drank at any whites only drinking fountain or ate any whites only diners and I am pretty sure my mom,aunts and uncle didn't drink at any whites only drinking fountains or ate at any whites only diners.
 
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If blacks are so equal then how come they have to be patronized like this and get special treatment. I guess its not racism if the people being discriminated against are white.
 
jamesrage said:
Do you have any credible links that state sponsored racial segregation ended in the early 80s?
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THAT IS NOT WHAT THUNDER SAID. Read his statement again.

I seem to recall in history class that Brown v. Board of Education(1954) ended state-sponsored racial segregation. I went to school with minorities in the early 80s. A decade or two before I went to school my mom,aunts and uncle went to school with minorities, of course in their day it was forced integration.
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http://www.nytimes.com/1992/07/15/n...o-ease-segregation.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Despite the huge shifts in New York City's population in the 1980's, blacks and whites -- regardless of their incomes -- have remained as segregated as they were when the decade began, according to a block-by-block analysis of the 1990 census.

During a period in which white non-Hispanic New Yorkers became a minority and the gap between black and white median income in some boroughs narrowed greatly, integration of the city's private and public housing proceeded only glacially, if at all.
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White flight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A practice further reinforcing unofficial segregation in states outside the South, where racial segregation was legal, were exclusionary covenants in title deeds and real estate neighborhood redlining[18] — explicit, legally sanctioned racial discrimination in real property ownership and lending practices. Black Americans were effectively barred from pursuing homeownership, even when they were able to afford it.[16] Suburban expansion was reserved for middle-class and working-class white people, facilitated by their increased wages incurred by the war effort and by subsequent federally guaranteed mortgages (VA, FHA, HOLC) available only to whites to buy new houses. Blacks and other minorities were relegated to a state of permanent rentership.[19]
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School Segregation in the 1980's: Trends in the United States and Metropolitan Areas. A Report by the National School Desegregation Project.

No branch of the Federal Government has taken any policy initiatives toward desegregation since 1971. This report presents information concerning the status of minority enrollment in schools by state and by metropolitan area. The major findings are the following: (1) states with the greatest integration of blacks typically have extensive court orders requiring busing; (2) states in which blacks are most segregated have fragmented school districts within large metropolitan areas and no city-suburban desegregation plan; (3) a few states experienced a modest reduction in segregation due to state government monitoring of desegregation; (4) the northeastern United States is the most segregated region; and (5) in locations where Hispanic populations are concentrated there are no widely implemented desegregation plans.
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The pile of data showing that segregation didn't really end with the 1950s or an executive order(remember, that is your original claim) is extensive.
 
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