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21st Century Racism Is Thriving In American Academe

Should an applicants race be a deciding factor for admission to a university?

  • Total voters
    68
  • Poll closed .
StillBallin75 said:
Well, if you just "try hard enough," you should be able to overcome any supposed disadvantages thrown your way, ain't that right? Ain't that what conservatives always say?

Most folks on this board know that I'm Asian-American. I am ****ing blessed to be from an upper middle-class socioeconomic background. Asian-Americans are probably the group most disadvantaged by affirmative action. But you know what? I don't five a flying ****. My race wasn't enslaved for hundreds of years. My race isn't just pulling its ass out of the ditch that was Jim Crow. My race isn't being stopped for driving while black, and my race isn't the one that's being ghettoized, living in ****ty neighborhoods, and facing housing discrimination. (and if you don't believe me on any of these, the sociological data is out there. Just look for it.) I mean, ****, we have it pretty ****ing good in this country!

So I'm sick of white folks whining and bitching about affirmative action (aka "reverse racism") while failing to acknowledge the existence of white privilege - which is affirmative action for white folks by default. And believe me, it exists. It's just a lot less noticeable when you're white.

Not to mention people focus too much on college admission and job hiring policies - when what affirmative action REALLY refers to is stuff like outreach programs, building better schools in impoverished neighborhoods, job training programs, etc. Nobody ever focuses on that stuff because that stuff doesn't get people riled up. But that's what the meat of affirmative action policies have comprised since the 60s, the hiring/college admissions/quota part is only a small part of what affirmative action policies really are.
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The problem is it's not helping. At some point you have to let people stand on their own. It's not the schools or the neighborhood, it's us as in minority's not taking advantage because they would rather take the easy road of drugs etc.

When are people going to stop blaming ill's of the past and put the blame where it belongs. Squarely on our own shoulders in the here and now.
 
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Blackdog said:
The problem is it's not helping. At some point you have to let people stand on their own. It's not the schools or the neighborhood, it's us as in minority's not taking advantage because they would rather take the easy road of drugs etc.

When are people going to stop blaming ill's of the past and put the blame where it belongs. Squarely on our own shoulders.
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I don't buy that one bit. I believe barriers are structural/systematic, all with historical underpinnings. You could reverse the situation and it would be the same with any race, IMHO.

But it so happens that black people have actually been doing better than they have since Jim Crow was repealed, amassing more wealth and resources once those de jure barriers were removed. So I actually have faith that with or without government policies, black people will be alright.
 
Blackdog said:
Then what other reason could it be? Because the evil white man is holding us down? Because schools that are in predominantly minority neighborhoods are not as good? If someone does not have the skills to get the grades even in a crap school, what makes people think that they can all of a sudden get them in college? Particularly based on race?

Please explain why I and other blacks who went to school did it without affirmative action?

This is not an attack on you, but seriously, I would like to know.
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Well, #1, I'm not going to explain why you got into school w/o affirmative action. You can do that if you want since that's your business.

In any case, supporting AA nor more requires someone to assume minorities can't compete than supporting legacy or athletics admissions requires someone to believe that athletes and legacies cannot compete. There are plenty of people whose race, legacy status and athletic promise is considered when applying who can and do certainly "compete on a level playing field".

I support AA because I understand that diverse experiences increase the diversity of ideas exchanged on a campus. It should never be the only factor and it should always be a secondary factor, but I have no problem with it being a factor if colleges think it will add to their campus. I support looking at extracurricular activities for the same reason. I support judging a student's GPA and scores relative to the school they attended (and this goes for kids of all races). Race is just another thing to be considered among a bunch of other things.
 
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Thunder said:
this cultural problem is a direct result of slavery, segregation, and discrimination.
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At every moment of every person's life they have what is known as a "Choice" that enables them to change anythign and everything about their life.
 
StillBallin75 said:
I don't buy that one bit. I believe barriers are structural/systematic, all with historical underpinnings. You could reverse the situation and it would be the same with any race, IMHO.

But it so happens that black people have actually been doing better than they have since Jim Crow was repealed, amassing more wealth and resources once those de jure barriers were removed. So I actually have faith that with or without government policies, black people will be alright.
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Exactly, it's not about black people specifically. It's about what happens to human beings when they live in certain environments and have certain historical disadvantages. When you see an entire sect of human beings not attending college at the same levels as other sects, it indicates a problem. When you couple that reality with certain disadvantaged environmental factors and histories that that sect of the population shares, it indicates a problem with the environment.

If just a small percentage of said population was doing poorly academically, then you could certainly chalk it up to "personal responsibility", but when almost an ENTIRE population is doing poorly something else is going on.
 
Bodhisattva said:
At every moment of every person's life they have what is known as a "Choice" that enables them to change anythign and everything about their life.
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right, its SOOO easy to simply change one's life in drastic & amazing ways. anyone can do it, if they aren't lazy and stupid.

;)
 
Bodhisattva said:
At every moment of every person's life they have what is known as a "Choice" that enables them to change anythign and everything about their life.
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If it were a small percentage of blacks that were doing poorly academically, then you could easily dismiss Thunder's post by pointing to "choice". However, when it's a significant percentage, then something else is clearly going on, particularly when those "choices" are complemented by poor environments and problematic histories.
 
StillBallin75 said:
I don't buy that one bit. I believe barriers are structural/systematic, all with historical underpinnings. You could reverse the situation and it would be the same with any race, IMHO.

But it so happens that black people have actually been doing better than they have since Jim Crow was repealed, amassing more wealth and resources once those de jure barriers were removed. So I actually have faith that with or without government policies, black people will be alright.
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I know that an argument can be made that shows that the barriers are structural and systematic, all with historical undertones, but at what point does time and distance negate those factors? At what point does Choice factor in? At what point do extraneous factors such as gangs factor in? Poor whites in the Ozarks aren't doing any better than inner city kids.

Asians were treated very poorly in the USA at the beginning. They were treated essentially like slaves when building the rail roads and that is why they initially came. They made something of themselves... they went into business (laundry and food) and found out that being an entrepeneur was possible.

I taught inner city expulsion school... the toughest of the tough. Makes the feel good movies that you see look tame. 97% black. I was one of only two white people on the entire campus and there were not many more in the entire section of the city. Some really smart kids. The problem was/is culture. Not black culture or white, but a culture about a lack of understanding about choice and the future. Their parents didn't value education since they didn't understand it. I would endlessly talk about work attitudes and so many smart kids heard me but just didn't get it in their hearts since they had never seen it modeled for them. A few would pop out and do great but so many fell into the patterns that they saw their parents live. Low income jobs, pregnancy, not moving up the ladder, etc. That is where AA should really be focused. Getting into the lives of those that need it earlier. Once they are adults it is almost too late and it angers those that feel they deserve a spot over a less qualified person.

Well, I started rambling and made a few points in there.
 
I'll ask again:

Would anyone serious argue that it is not wholly unjust for a welfare class white student, with grades and SATs on par with that of an upper middle class black student, to be passed over in favor of admitting the black student because of his race?
 
Thunder said:
right, its SOOO easy to simply change one's life in drastic & amazing ways. anyone can do it, if they aren't lazy and stupid.

;)
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I better explained my point in the longer past that I just made...
 
theplaydrive said:
If it were a small percentage of blacks that were doing poorly academically, then you could easily dismiss Thunder's post by pointing to "choice". However, when it's a significant percentage, then something else is clearly going on, particularly when those "choices" are complemented by poor environments and problematic histories.
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I addressed that better in my longer post that I just made...
 
theplaydrive said:
If it were a small percentage of blacks that were doing poorly academically, then you could easily dismiss Thunder's post by pointing to "choice". However, when it's a significant percentage, then something else is clearly going on, particularly when those "choices" are complemented by poor environments and problematic histories.
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I can't believe someone is actually arguing that anyone can simply "choose" to overcome great adversity & poor upbringing.

what is the endgame of such a claim? they are simply saying that the real reason soo many blacks are poorly educated, poorly housed, and working in crappy jobs or no jobs...is because they are lazy, unmotivated, and just ****kickers. that is the agenda here.
 
Thunder said:
I can't believe someone is actually arguing that anyone can simply "choose" to overcome great adversity & poor upbringing.
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I cannot believe that so many of you are still laboring under the delusion that all white people have enjoyed better socioeconomic advantages than all black people.
 
Sig said:
I cannot believe that so many of you are still laboring under the delusion that all white people have enjoyed better socioeconomic advantages than all black people.
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The word "all" is why your statement is a strawman of the majority of pro-AA arguments.
 
Sig said:
I cannot believe that so many of you are still laboring under the delusion that all white people have enjoyed better socioeconomic advantages than all black people.
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who said "all"? I can't stand strawman arguments.

but yes, a much higher percentage of blacks have worse socioeconomic advantages than whites.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I know that an argument can be made that shows that the barriers are structural and systematic, all with historical undertones, but at what point does time and distance negate those factors? At what point does Choice factor in? At what point do extraneous factors such as gangs factor in? Poor whites in the Ozarks aren't doing any better than inner city kids.

Asians were treated very poorly in the USA at the beginning. They were treated essentially like slaves when building the rail roads and that is why they initially came. They made something of themselves... they went into business (laundry and food) and found out that being an entrepeneur was possible.

I taught inner city expulsion school... the toughest of the tough. Makes the feel good movies that you see look tame. 97% black. I was one of only two white people on the entire campus and there were not many more in the entire section of the city. Some really smart kids. The problem was/is culture. Not black culture or white, but a culture about a lack of understanding about choice and the future. Their parents didn't value education since they didn't understand it. I would endlessly talk about work attitudes and so many smart kids heard me but just didn't get it in their hearts since they had never seen it modeled for them. A few would pop out and do great but so many fell into the patterns that they saw their parents live. Low income jobs, pregnancy, not moving up the ladder, etc. That is where AA should really be focused. Getting into the lives of those that need it earlier. Once they are adults it is almost too late and it angers those that feel they deserve a spot over a less qualified person.

Well, I started rambling and made a few points in there.
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This still does not negate the point that while choice alone may be the explanation for a small percentage of a population doing poorly, it does not explain when a majority of a population is doing poorly.

When nearly an entire population is doing poorly, something other than mere choice is happening. Either their environment and history are creating barriers to their success or their environment and history are influencing how they make choices OR both are happening which is my take on the situation. Even your teaching example and your mention of gangs illustrates how students' environments influence them.

It's interesting that you brought up Asians because Confucianism permeated the culture of many Asian populations along time ago. Confucianism's emphasis on education and respect for elders certainly had an impact on how Asians who immigrated to the US fared in the US. So again, we see history having an impact on a group of people. It's the same for the black population.
 
Thunder said:
who said "all"? I can't stand strawman arguments.

but yes, a much higher percentage of blacks have worse socioeconomic advantages than whites.
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But, of course, not all blacks are worse off than all whites, you do admit that?
 
Sig said:
But, of course, not all blacks are worse off than all whites, you do admit that?
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ALL blacks?

hell, I live in the only county in America where the average black income is higher than the average white income.
 
theplaydrive said:
Because no one said "all" except for you.
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I'm trying to walk you through this, step by step. Bear with me.


(Incidentally, you have implied that much, though you loathe to admit it.)
 
theplaydrive said:
Well, #1, I'm not going to explain why you got into school w/o affirmative action. You can do that if you want since that's your business.
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Community college with decent grades? It's not that hard.

theplaydrive said:
In any case, supporting AA nor more requires someone to assume minorities can't compete than supporting legacy or athletics admissions requires someone to believe that athletes and legacies cannot compete. There are plenty of people whose race, legacy status and athletic promise is considered when applying who can and do certainly "compete on a level playing field".

I support AA because I understand that diverse experiences increase the diversity of ideas exchanged on a campus. It should never be the only factor and it should always be a secondary factor, but I have no problem with it being a factor if colleges think it will add to their campus. I support looking at extracurricular activities for the same reason. I support judging a student's GPA and scores relative to the school they attended (and this goes for kids of all races). Race is just another thing to be considered among a bunch of other things.
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If someone ends up getting kicked out because they were let in on race alone, I don't care how much diversity it creates it creates problems by more qualified people who could succeed being left out.
 
Blackdog said:
Community college with decent grades? It's not that hard.
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Okay, that's cool.

If someone ends up getting kicked out because they were let in on race alone, I don't care how much diversity it creates it creates problems by more qualified people who could succeed being left out.
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I haven't advocated that people should be let in on race alone. In fact, I stated the opposite. I haven't seen any other poster in this thread say that and as someone who knows many people who support AA, that's not a common argument of AA proponents. So like I said when you made your first post, you are just distorting actually AA arguments and then criticizing those.
 
Sig said:
I'm trying to walk you through this, step by step. Bear with me.


(Incidentally, you have implied that much, though you loathe to admit it.)
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I have no idea what you are trying to say here, but your initial post was a strawman. It's that simple.
 
Thunder said:
ALL blacks?

hell, I live in the only county in America where the average black income is higher than the average white income.
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Well then, I am sure you know better than any of us that there is something morally obscene about a welfare class white student with equal grades and SATs to that of an upper middle class black student, being passed over for admissions in favor of the black student for no other effective reason than the black student being black and the white student being white.
 
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