It's the Corporate State, Stupid

DaveFagan · Nov 21, 2011

It's the Corporate State, Stupid

"The early twentieth century Italians, who invented the word fascism, also had a more descriptive term for the concept -- estato corporativo: the corporatist state. Unfortunately for Americans, we have come to equate fascism with its symptoms, not with its structure. The structure of fascism is corporatism, or the corporate state. The structure of fascism is the union, marriage, merger or fusion of corporate economic power with governmental power. Failing to understand fascism, as the consolidation of corporate economic and governmental power in the hands of a few, is to completely misunderstand what fascism is. It is the consolidation of this power that produces the demagogues and regimes we understand as fascist ones."

Does this sound like our current USA?
Is this the Military/Industrial/Corporate Complex?
Is this the reality of the 1%-99%?

What if...? · Nov 21, 2011

I remembered that I had heard/read in some history class that one of the names for the phenomenon that we call fascism was "corporatism". That corporations fought and lobbied against the name.

Then I tried to find a reference to post here and couldn't find it.

Kinda funny what gets edited out of wikipedia and "shoved down" on search engines.

jambalaya · Nov 21, 2011

Ok, I am lazy so I am not going to read the article but aren't they talking about government with a corporatist structure not corporations infiltrating and taking over government. I don't think the fascist government of Italy was beholding to anybody including corporations which by the way I don't imagine they had corporations like we know them today or maybe not at all. But I really don't know.

Frolicking Dinosaurs · Nov 21, 2011

Below are the 14 traits common to fascist governments in the past. After reading them I have to conclude that the answer to the poll is the US is leading toward fascism and will become a fascist state if the extreme right should ever gain control of our government.

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. Exceptionalism is an example.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. Consider Gitmo, use of excessive force by police being deemed acceptable in conjunction with #3 , prison conditions in the US

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Consider what has been said about the Middle East as a whole and more recently about OWS. Demonizing the opposition is key to unifying people under fascism.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Which group is unwilling to consider any cuts in military spending?

5. Rampant sexism. Sexual harassment by the rich and powerful is nearly expected in the US and the victims are demonized for not staying silent about it.

6. A controlled mass media. In times past, this was possible. Now it requires control of not just media outlets, but of information delivery systems because news outlets from other parts of the world are readily available. If you have been following what is happening in the US in regard to internet access, you know we are on a slippery slope that may lead to the US having a system similar to China's for controlling what US citizens can access..

7. Obsession with national security. Opposing any bill labelled 'national security' is seen as not loving the US (see #1)

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Which party is promoting interjecting religion into government?

9. Power of corporations protected. Rampant in the US and both parties condone and promote it.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Which party promotes union-busting?

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Which party advocated prison time over treatment for addiction and the death penalty?

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Both parties are guilty of this one.

14. Fraudulent elections. Again, both parties are guilty.

Ikari · Nov 21, 2011

Frolicking Dinosaurs said:
Below are the 14 traits common to fascist governments in the past. After reading them I have to conclude that the answer to the poll is the US is leading toward fascism and will become a fascist state if the extreme right should ever gain control of our government.

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. Exceptionalism is an example.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. Consider Gitmo, use of excessive force by police being deemed acceptable in conjunction with #3 , prison conditions in the US

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Consider what has been said about the Middle East as a whole and more recently about OWS. Demonizing the opposition is key to unifying people under fascism.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Which group is unwilling to consider any cuts in military spending?

5. Rampant sexism. Sexual harassment by the rich and powerful is nearly expected in the US and the victims are demonized for not staying silent about it.

6. A controlled mass media. In times past, this was possible. Now it requires control of not just media outlets, but of information delivery systems because news outlets from other parts of the world are readily available. If you have been following what is happening in the US in regard to internet access, you know we are on a slippery slope that may lead to the US having a system similar to China's for controlling what US citizens can access..

7. Obsession with national security. Opposing any bill labelled 'national security' is seen as not loving the US (see #1)

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Which party is promoting interjecting religion into government?

9. Power of corporations protected. Rampant in the US and both parties condone and promote it.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Which party promotes union-busting?

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Which party advocated prison time over treatment for addiction and the death penalty?

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Both parties are guilty of this one.

14. Fraudulent elections. Again, both parties are guilty.

Of course we're doing the fascist route, it's been well obvious for awhile now. We're using 1984 as a playbook, not a warning.

Chaddelamancha · Nov 21, 2011

Ikari said:
Of course we're doing the fascist route, it's been well obvious for awhile now. We're using 1984 as a playbook, not a warning.

I see this from both parties to a degree.

Paschendale · Nov 21, 2011

Yeah, those 14 goals are pretty much what we're doing. I honestly don't see a lot of difference between modern existence and serfdom. Serfs were unable to control the direction of their lives or exercise personal freedom. Then it was accomplished only with military might. Now we've mostly relegated it to the use of debt.

Chaddelamancha said:
I see this from both parties to a degree.

Of course. The barrier of entry into politics, regardless of party, is that you must be funded by the wealthy business interests. That's the only way to do it.

DaveFagan · Nov 21, 2011

I didn't post this to be contrarian or as a troll, but as a patriot genuinely concerned for the direction of our Country. I see the Corporatism/Fascism and as we wander about the world using our military to gain control of resources to the benefit of our Corporations. What is different about that than Hitler's agenda? Where are the Conservatives regarding this post? Some people think you can only be a patriot if you don't criticize your Country. Wrong.

jambalaya · Nov 21, 2011

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. Exceptionalism is an example.
I think we can say this is on the downturn and has been for some time. Sure there are still a lot of people in this country who are patriotic and nationalistic but I would say far less today than in the past.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. Consider Gitmo, use of excessive force by police being deemed acceptable in conjunction with #3 , prison conditions in the US
Disdain? Certainly from some people. But I don't think Gitmo is the a good example. Better examples would be disdain shown for our own citizens not with enemy combatants.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Consider what has been said about the Middle East as a whole and more recently about OWS. Demonizing the opposition is key to unifying people under fascism.
I can see this one as part of a trend regarding Middle East and Muslims in general. Certainly this fear and scapegoat mentality is being taken advantage of by some.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Which group is unwilling to consider any cuts in military spending?
Some people are always going to abhor the military and some people are always going to be war hawks. I don't see a great imbalance here.

5. Rampant sexism. Sexual harassment by the rich and powerful is nearly expected in the US and the victims are demonized for not staying silent about it.
If you really think that today, in 2011, we are experiencing RAMPANT sexism then you just have an axe to grind and no amount of progress will ever satisfy you. Take a trip back to the 50's and get some perspective.

6. A controlled mass media. In times past, this was possible. Now it requires control of not just media outlets, but of information delivery systems because news outlets from other parts of the world are readily available. If you have been following what is happening in the US in regard to internet access, you know we are on a slippery slope that may lead to the US having a system similar to China's for controlling what US citizens can access.
We must always be diligent about this but we are currently a long way off from a controlled mass media.

7. Obsession with national security. Opposing any bill labelled 'national security' is seen as not loving the US (see #1)
This has certainly been ramped up since 9/11 and a lot of it is understandable. I think just like other times in U.S. history as we get more distance from 9/11 we are more likely to lapse in our vigilance than for it to get worse. Could be wrong. Bears watching

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Which party is promoting interjecting religion into government?
If you were to keep a scorecard of who is winning the battle for keeping religion out of government the people who promote interjecting religion into goverment are losing by a longshot.

9. Power of corporations protected. Rampant in the US and both parties condone and promote it.
Agree.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Which party promotes union-busting?
There has been a big kickback against labor unions and I believe it is about time. They've ruined the auto industry, they have been involved in massive corruption and they along with their enablers in government have tried to bully companies into accepting unions. Unions can potentially be a good thing but the model for unions created in the time of poor work conditions and exploitation of workers just doesn't exist. The government has adopted laws to protect workers as a direct result of union activism. They just aren't needed as much today.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Which party advocated prison time over treatment for addiction and the death penalty?
Mixed bag here. I certainly think the war on drugs has been a terrible failure. But crime and punishment has been no more an obsession now than it has been in any other time in our history. It has always been here. I'd like to see reforms.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Both parties are guilty of this one.
No argument here.

14. Fraudulent elections. Again, both parties are guilty.
Yep, always have to be on top of this one.

Ikari · Nov 21, 2011

jambalaya said:
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. Exceptionalism is an example.
I think we can say this is on the downturn and has been for some time. Sure there are still a lot of people in this country who are patriotic and nationalistic but I would say far less today than in the past.

I think we have recently been putting an extreme amount of emphasis on it.

jambalaya said:
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. Consider Gitmo, use of excessive force by police being deemed acceptable in conjunction with #3 , prison conditions in the US
Disdain? Certainly from some people. But I don't think Gitmo is the a good example. Better examples would be disdain shown for our own citizens not with enemy combatants.

Patriot Act, Real ID Act, warentless searches, the control of free speech, the crack downs on assembly and protest and the heavy handed use of police forces for these things, etc. There is much disdain for rights, particularly privacy and property rights.

jambalaya said:
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Which group is unwilling to consider any cuts in military spending?
Some people are always going to abhor the military and some people are always going to be war hawks. I don't see a great imbalance here.

To degrees yes. But how is it actually being used? It's well more used now, for long term, occupational wars as well.

jambalaya said:
6. A controlled mass media. In times past, this was possible. Now it requires control of not just media outlets, but of information delivery systems because news outlets from other parts of the world are readily available. If you have been following what is happening in the US in regard to internet access, you know we are on a slippery slope that may lead to the US having a system similar to China's for controlling what US citizens can access.
We must always be diligent about this but we are currently a long way off from a controlled mass media.

I would disagree. I do think that there is a lot of control over the media these days and what they will report to the People. Too much collusion and too much collapsing ownership into a few hands.

jambalaya said:
7. Obsession with national security. Opposing any bill labelled 'national security' is seen as not loving the US (see #1)
This has certainly been ramped up since 9/11 and a lot of it is understandable. I think just like other times in U.S. history as we get more distance from 9/11 we are more likely to lapse in our vigilance than for it to get worse. Could be wrong. Bears watching

A lot of it is not understandable. It has been used as excuse to grossly expand government's power, particularly against the People. The thing to remember, IMO, is that the entity that threatens our liberty and freedom the most is not some band of terrorists; but rather our government itself.

jambalaya said:
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Which party is promoting interjecting religion into government?
If you were to keep a scorecard of who is winning the battle for keeping religion out of government the people who promote interjecting religion into goverment are losing by a longshot.

Yet atheists are the least likely group to be able to be elected.

jambalaya said:
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Which party promotes union-busting?
There has been a big kickback against labor unions and I believe it is about time. They've ruined the auto industry, they have been involved in massive corruption and they along with their enablers in government have tried to bully companies into accepting unions. Unions can potentially be a good thing but the model for unions created in the time of poor work conditions and exploitation of workers just doesn't exist. The government has adopted laws to protect workers as a direct result of union activism. They just aren't needed as much today.

While there is some concern for the corruption of Unions, particularly lately there has been a huge anti-labor kick. Unions in general are fine as they are nothing more than association and contract rights being aggregated. Unions didn't destroy as much as you'd like to think it so.

jambalaya said:
12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Which party advocated prison time over treatment for addiction and the death penalty?
Mixed bag here. I certainly think the war on drugs has been a terrible failure. But crime and punishment has been no more an obsession now than it has been in any other time in our history. It has always been here. I'd like to see reforms.

Really? How many more punishments do we have? How many more laws? How many more lists for tracking? I think we are WELL more zealous now about crime and punishment

misterman · Nov 22, 2011

Paschendale said:
Of course. The barrier of entry into politics, regardless of party, is that you must be funded by the wealthy business interests. That's the only way to do it.

Not true. But even if it were, why is that? The voters still vote, including in primaries. So why?

coolwalker · Nov 22, 2011

Anyone can twist words to mean something other than what they really mean. Look at Clinton..."I never had sex with that woman"...to him a BJ is not sex, to most thinking people it is, to a semantics expert it is simply a tool (the word that is).

Paschendale · Nov 22, 2011

misterman said:
Not true. But even if it were, why is that? The voters still vote, including in primaries. So why?

The voters vote for whoever the TV tells them to. A well exposed candidate will defeat a better, but unknown one. You need massive amounts of money to get the advertising required to contend in an election. The only ones who have the requisite money are wealthy business interests and some powerful lobbies, like the NRA. If you aren't the candidate who has best courted them, then you won't get their money, and the one who gets the most money from these groups almost always wins.

How do you have eight thousand posts here and not know basic election information like this?

OhIsee.Then · Nov 22, 2011

What if...? said:
I remembered that I had heard/read in some history class that one of the names for the phenomenon that we call fascism was "corporatism". That corporations fought and lobbied against the name.

Then I tried to find a reference to post here and couldn't find it.

Kinda funny what gets edited out of wikipedia and "shoved down" on search engines.

Corporatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Fascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gee, I found it on wiki. Good thread though.

misterman · Nov 22, 2011

Paschendale said:
The voters vote for whoever the TV tells them to.

And that's their right. If you don't like it, too bad.

Chaddelamancha · Nov 23, 2011

Paschendale said:
The voters vote for whoever the TV tells them to. A well exposed candidate will defeat a better, but unknown one. You need massive amounts of money to get the advertising required to contend in an election. The only ones who have the requisite money are wealthy business interests and some powerful lobbies, like the NRA. If you aren't the candidate who has best courted them, then you won't get their money, and the one who gets the most money from these groups almost always wins.

How do you have eight thousand posts here and not know basic election information like this?

This is what is wrong with the system. The solution isn't about limiting corporate funding, or campaign finance reform, but about educating the American people. If anything, there should be a pop quiz at the polls and if you can't answer questions about where your candidate stands on the issues, then you don't get to vote. Americans should be taking it upon themselves to learn about the candidate before casting their vote. Democracy is too powerful to leave it in the hands of the uneducated.

haymarket · Nov 23, 2011

coolwalker said:
Anyone can twist words to mean something other than what they really mean. Look at Clinton..."I never had sex with that woman"...to him a BJ is not sex, to most thinking people it is, to a semantics expert it is simply a tool (the word that is).

Could you translate that to what you mean about the OP please?

DAVE - thank you very much of the article. :2wave:

It's the Corporate State, Stupid

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DaveFagan

Iconoclast

What if...?

jambalaya

Cynical Optimist

Frolicking Dinosaurs

200M yrs of experience

Ikari

Chaddelamancha

Paschendale

Uncanny

DaveFagan

Iconoclast

jambalaya

Cynical Optimist

Ikari

misterman

coolwalker

Paschendale

Uncanny

OhIsee.Then

misterman

Chaddelamancha

haymarket