Does the Occupy Wall Street movement represent the 99%?

FreedomFromAll said:

Most of the other countries with mass protests are protesting actual dictators and authoritarian regimes. They have become violent because the Government directly or indirectly killed many protesters. Comparing OWS to such international situations is dangerous for the occupy movement, since those other examples have or were or did over through their Government.

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JustinS said:

Yes. I am not sure whether or not Dr. King was a socialist, though.

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FreedomFromAll said:

Most of the other countries with mass protests are protesting actual dictators and authoritarian regimes. They have become violent because the Government directly or indirectly killed many protesters. Comparing OWS to such international situations is dangerous for the occupy movement, since those other examples have or were or did over through their Government.

Are you asserting then that the purpose of OWS is to overthrow the US Government? I assume that you are not, but do you see what I mean?

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Josie said:

So on what would MLK, Jr. agree with Cornel West?

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Catawba said:

The purpose of the Civil Rights Movement was not to overthrow the US Government, The Vietnam War protest was not to overthrow the US Government. Likewise, it is not the purpose of the Occupy protest around the country to overthrow the US Government. All three sought to generate, through non-violent civil disobedience, the public debate necessary to bring about social evolution.

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Occupy Wall Street is leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%. We are using the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to achieve our ends and encourage the use of nonviolence to maximize the safety of all participants.

This #ows movement empowers real people to create real change from the bottom up. We want to see a general assembly in every backyard, on every street corner because we don't need Wall Street and we don't need politicians to build a better society. Occupy Wall Street | NYC Protest for World Revolution

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FreedomFromAll said:

"revolutionary Arab Spring tactic" does not imply reforms, it implies revolution as in what Egypt is doing. Does OWS want the military to assume power? After all that is what happened in Egypt and that is what OWS claims they are involved in an Arab spring. Look at how the Governments responded in the Arab spring countries, With live rounds not rubber bullets or pepper spray. Every US citizen would be rioting in the streets if our Government started shooting protesters with real bullets. [...]

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JustinS said:

By 'revolutionary' they were describing the effectiveness of the tactic, not the way in which it was meant to be used for #OWS. They were not implying a revolution. In all honesty though, some of the more radical protestors want a revolution. These people are usually the democratic socialists leftward. All others simply want reform, and many of the more extreme leftists still do not want a revolution. A revolution is in no way the intended outcome for #OWS.

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This #ows movement empowers real people to create real change from the bottom up. We want to see a general assembly in every backyard, on every street corner because we don't need Wall Street and we don't need politicians to build a better society. Occupy Wall Street | NYC Protest for World Revolution

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FreedomFromAll said:

So then why were you comparing (as most of the occupiers do) to movements in other countries that their goal is to overthrow their Governments? Youn cant have it both ways, either you are inspired by Arab spring or you are not.



"revolutionary Arab Spring tactic" does not imply reforms, it implies revolution as in what Egypt is doing. Does OWS want the military to assume power? After all that is what happened in Egypt and that is what OWS claims they are involved in an Arab spring. Look at how the Governments responded in the Arab spring countries, With live rounds not rubber bullets or pepper spray. Every US citizen would be rioting in the streets if our Government started shooting protesters with real bullets.

Social evolution isnt always a good thing. Take a look at pre ww2 Germany. Hitler and the Nazis worked hard to "bring about social evolution". What the occupy movement is, is an caste rigidly determined to be the dominate moral leader of America. OWS dogmatically ignores the purpose of Representative Democracy and wants no other alternative than their vision of society. Even their website address promotes world revolution. While admitting "We are using the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to achieve our ends"

What are Americans to think about the Occupy movement? See why I said relating your movement to Arab spring is dangerous? Well only dangerous if you actually want to stop corruption. IMHO liberals would be wise to start their own movement and distance themselves from OWS. Arab Spring is not something that most Americans would want in the US. At least not the actual Arab spring that happened in the Arab countries.

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FreedomFromAll said:

d

Yes I know revolution is the fall back plan. Arab spring can be described as wide spread uprisings that demanded new governments. OWS directly asserts it is modeling that tactic.

Please do not act as if I have not done my homework. Word games do not fool me.

"Now is the time!" This is a common phrase thrown around by occupiers, that has a very specific meaning. I realize that there are a lot of Liberals that support OWS. Except for special occasions the people at the protests day in and day out are not Liberals. The actual protesters the ones keeping the protests going are overwhelmingly farther Left that the run of the mill average Liberal. The core of OWS is not Liberal they are Leftists that would like to convince Americans to give up on America. And they want us to get out on the streets and oust all of the politicians out of office.

How is that demand any different than what happened and is happening in the countries of Arab spring? OWS wants Americans to oust the politicians. That is fact and it came straight from the actual protesters at OWS. There is no way to say that they did not mean it that way.

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Catawba said:

LOL! You are a hoot!!! You talk of little else but OWS protesters around the country and try to convince people they are having no effect on public debate!


Nazi Germany???? We are talking tax rates and bank regulations proposed that are not even as progressive as during the 1940's thru the 1970's in the US. Conservatives need to wake up to the fact that a majority of the country supports eliminating the tax cuts for the rich and re-regulating the banks.

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Declaration of the Occupation of New York City | NYC General Assembly # Occupy Wall Street Declaration of the Occupation of New York City

This document was accepted by the NYC General Assembly on September 29, 2011
Translations: French, Slovak, Spanish, German, Italian, Arabic, Portuguese [all translations »]
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*
To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

*These grievances are not all-inclusive

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About Us | OccupyWallSt.org About
OccupyWallSt.org is the unofficial de facto online resource for the growing occupation movement happening on Wall Street and around the world. We're an affinity group committed to doing technical support work for resistance movements. We're not a subcommittee of the NYCGA nor affiliated with Adbusters, anonymous or any other organization.

Occupy Wall Street is a people-powered movement that began on September 17, 2011 in Liberty Square in Manhattan’s Financial District, and has spread to over 100 cities in the United States and actions in over 1,500 cities globally. #ows is fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks and multinational corporations over the democratic process, and the role of Wall Street in creating an economic collapse that has caused the greatest recession in generations. The movement is inspired by popular uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, and aims to fight back against the richest 1% of people that are writing the rules of an unfair global economy that is foreclosing on our future.

The occupations around the world are being organized using a non-binding consensus based collective decision making tool known as a "people's assembly". To learn more about how to use this process to organize your local community to fight back against social injustice, please read this quick guide on group dynamics in people's assemblies.

Solidarity Forever!

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Catawba said:

They really frighten you, don't they?

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FreedomFromAll said:

"Conservatives need to wake up" Tell them that not me, as I have told you I am not an Conservative.

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BTW dont be so simply minded I did not relate Nazism with OWS. I only made the example that forced social evolution isnt always a good thing.

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Catawba said:

They really frighten you, don't they?

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FreedomFromAll said:

If by frighten you mean that I am concerned that a group of people want to start a uprising in this country then sure why not?

All sarcasm aside do you think I am not warranted in being concerned about a movement that visually is Leftist?

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Is it not my liberty to raise my concerns about a movement that wishes to enact massive change upon the country of my birth? You said yourself that OWS wants us to have this conversation. Why than do you try to deny everything that I show you?
It is not like I have not shown my sources which in every case has been from sites officiated or in support collectively for OWS. I think that you are the one that needs to "wake up". and see what is so clearly in front of you.

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You seem to be asserting that OWS is an Liberal movement with a small radical Anarchist to Communist element. Why is that element there and why is their voice so loud among your Liberal movement? Why do you think that so many people see OWS as an mainly Leftist movement and not a non-partisanship peoples movement? Why is it that only Left leaning people see OWS as not a Left leaning movement and overwhelming the Right sees it as a Leftist movement? Is that the conversation that OWS was after?

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Meathead said:

I am pretty sure they don't have nor will reach a critical mass to influence the course of history. But yeah, as a student of history I would be worried if a group of self-righteous youth, aging hipsters and dedicated extremists did.

You don't have to go far back in time to see the erosion of freedom and human suffering which resulting from such movements. This, of course, all on the assumed premise that they understand what is good for us. That would scare me.

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Catawba said:

What was the erosion of freedom and human suffering caused by the Vietnam War protest and the Civil Rights Movement, the other two big mass non-violent protests in our past???

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Catawba said:

You have ultra conservative ideals, whether you call yourself a conservative or not.



What forced social evolution??? You sure do have a funny way of defining enlightenment.

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Catawba said:

You call the OWS movement Leftists, and have the balls to say you are not conservative????




You have exposed nothing but your own paranoid delusions.




They are a confluence of many groups that make up the Occupy protesters across the country, all with the cause of increasing public debate about the historic wealth disparity in this country. There are some anarchists, Veterans, Seniors, college students, the unemployed, the unions, in other words a wide cross section of Americans. Most people don't see it as Leftist. Only ultra conservatives like yourself see it as Leftists. As a matter of fact, 4 times as many people approve of the OWS than approve of the Congress voted in 2010!

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Catawba said:

You call the OWS movement Leftists, and have the balls to say you are not conservative????




You have exposed nothing but your own paranoid delusions.




They are a confluence of many groups that make up the Occupy protesters across the country, all with the cause of increasing public debate about the historic wealth disparity in this country. There are some anarchists, Veterans, Seniors, college students, the unemployed, the unions, in other words a wide cross section of Americans. Most people don't see it as Leftist. Only ultra conservatives like yourself see it as Leftists. As a matter of fact, 4 times as many people approve of the OWS than approve of the Congress voted in 2010!

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Catawba said:

You call the OWS movement Leftists, and have the balls to say you are not conservative????

You have exposed nothing but your own paranoid delusions.

They are a confluence of many groups that make up the Occupy protesters across the country, all with the cause of increasing public debate about the historic wealth disparity in this country. There are some anarchists, Veterans, Seniors, college students, the unemployed, the unions, in other words a wide cross section of Americans. Most people don't see it as Leftist. Only ultra conservatives like yourself see it as Leftists.

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Undistributed Middle

A syllogistic fallacy where the middle term (the term that appears in both premises) is not distributed (quantified on the left hand side of the logical expression) in either premise in which it occurs.
Abstractly, the fallacy looks like:
All A are C
All B are C
Therefore, all A are B
In plain English, it means an argument that goes like this:
All communists favor regulation
All democrats favor regulation
Therefore, all democrats are communists
Or:
All dogs are mortal
Socrates is mortal
Therefore, Socrates is a dog Undistributed Middle

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As a matter of fact, 4 times as many people approve of the OWS than approve of the Congress voted in 2010!

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Fallacy: Appeal to Popularity

The Appeal to Popularity has the following form:

Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
Therefore X is true.
The basic idea is that a claim is accepted as being true simply because most people are favorably inclined towards the claim. More formally, the fact that most people have favorable emotions associated with the claim is substituted in place of actual evidence for the claim. A person falls prey to this fallacy if he accepts a claim as being true simply because most other people approve of the claim.

It is clearly fallacious to accept the approval of the majority as evidence for a claim. For example, suppose that a skilled speaker managed to get most people to absolutely love the claim that 1+1=3. It would still not be rational to accept this claim simply because most people approved of it. After all, mere approval is no substitute for a mathematical proof. At one time people approved of claims such as "the world is flat", "humans cannot survive at speeds greater than 25 miles per hour", "the sun revolves around the earth" but all these claims turned out to be false.

This sort of "reasoning" is quite common and can be quite an effective persusasive device. Since most humans tend to conform with the views of the majority, convincing a person that the majority approves of a claim is often an effective way to get him to accept it. Advertisers often use this tactic when they attempt to sell products by claiming that everyone uses and loves their products. In such cases they hope that people will accept the (purported) approval of others as a good reason to buy the product.

This fallacy is vaguely similar to such fallacies as Appeal to Belief and Appeal to Common Practice. However, in the case of an Ad Populum the appeal is to the fact that most people approve of a claim. In the case of an Appeal to Belief, the appeal is to the fact that most people believe a claim. In the case of an Appeal to Common Practice, the appeal is to the fact that many people take the action in question.

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Catawba said:

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JustinS said:

Martin Luther King Jr. would also support the protests; he would be standing alongside his fellow protestors and would also be a leading figure.

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Caine said:

They had a job.

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FreedomFromAll said:

Now you are my end all judge? Please tell me what makes my views ultra Conservative? I asked you that before and all I heard were crickets. All I have asserted is that OWS is an Leftist movement. I did not share any Conservative ideals. Why is it that I must be a Conservative? Is it because I do not flock to OWS like some love sick child? Sorry I dont have blind faith and am able to see just who and what OWs is. I cant help it that you cannot. And in your denial of the obvious must accuse me of being the typical foe of your ideology. Guess what there are other people with different beliefs than the mundane Liberal vs Conservative paradigm.

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Proud South Korean said:

So anybody who calls OWS leftists are conservatives? Am I a conservative? :lamo

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The point of an Representative Democracy is to have equality among ideals. Meanwhile the infighting between your half and your opposing half is destroying this great nation. And I refuse to be a part of that insane spiral of irrationality. So please stop playing childish games and trying to pigeon hole me into your perception of the world. I make my own opinions your online opinion of my inner self does not matter.

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Forced social evolution is when one side wants to dictate what is socially acceptable to another side or in this case everyone else.

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I already have told you that I agree that regulations and laws are necessary to maintain an civilized world. But dont take that as endorsement for an state ran economy.

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Meathead said:

These protesters, by and large, are not protesting the lack of civil rights or wars. They are envisioning a new world order based on Marxist principles. While some of the buzzwords have been altered and are now progressive, income inequality, fairness and so on, the goals of enforcing radical socioeconomic changes have not.

But higher levels of education, history and freer and more accessible media than in the early to late 20th century will hopefully minimize the populist and self-righteous appeal of what could be a dangerous movement. Repackaged crap is still crap.

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