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Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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theplaydrive said:
No, because the scientific literature at the time argued that blacks/Africans were inferior to whites/Europeans and because blacks/Africans were depicted as an animals and called "beasts" and "lower than human" in literature and other sources whereas whites were not.
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They have a word for that. It's called, "propaganda". The Nazis used the same kind of propaganda about the Jews. Does that mean Germany is a racist culture?

Just go find some sources at the time.
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I have a better idea. Hows-a-bout yo post a few for us. Oh, say, 10-15?
 
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Phys251 said:
Problem was, that isn't even relevant. They did have some standards of decency, just not enough of them.
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Oh? Do tell. Do explain how they would have went out of their way to pay MORE money for African slaves with some bit of historical documentation that hey did it ONLY because african slaves were black....

:roll:
 
snilloctjc said:
You have got to be kidding me? You do realize you are perpetuating the same racial stereotypes that justified slavery before and during the Civil War - right?
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What stereo type? African blacks are able to withstand the sun because of where they come from and adaptation. It is a scientific fact that the thicker hair, broader nostrils and a high level of melanin in the skin are adaptations to a hot sunny dry climate.

snilloctjc said:
I wonder what the black freemen, or slaves, or former slaves of the per and anti-bellum perood would think of such arguments?
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Considering the lack of education about scientific facts, not much.
 
theplaydrive said:
I have no idea what the prices were for people of other races. However, I know Africans were bought for many reasons, not just money as you try to make it. They were also bought because of their physical ability and because they were viewed as an inferior "race", if not the most inferior race.



You both keep trying to either take race completely out the equation or say that race only entered the equation later. This just isn't true. Africans were being called savages, inferior and many other derogatory names since the beginning of the slave trade. The main theories of science during the entire history of slavery were about the inferiority of blacks/Africans. Obviously factors other than race were a part of the story, but race was always a part of it and it increased over time.
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What isn't true, is that Africans were enslaved because they were black. What about the blacks that sold the blacks to the Arabs, who then sold them to the Europeans?

The bottom line, is that if Africans had been white and their culture remained the same, they would have still been enslaved.

You're trying to say that white people one day up and said, "I hate niggers. Let's go to Africa and make'em slaves", and that notion is bull****.
 
apdst said:
Not only that, Africa was the only place where people were selling their own people into slavery.
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That's not true. Native Americans sold other native Americans into slavery. I'm also quite certain that Europeans and Asians sold fellow Europeans and Asians into slavery. However, in the cases of all four groups (Africans, Native Americans, Europeans and Asians), they weren't ever really selling their "own people" into slavery. They were usually selling prisoners of war and members of other tribes, groups and populations.
 
Blackdog said:
I understand but it's kind of hard to agree when out of roughly 360,000 blacks, 30,000 were free. It like saying well 100 people out of 100,000 survived! What great news! Hehehehe.
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My point is to show that it was a despicable labor system that, while Americans at the time WERE in fact racists, the entire basis of this labor system was not founded upon racism.

If that were the case, then they would not have ALLOWED free persons of color in the south at all.

And the state with the most free persons of color living in it wouldn't also have 5k more slaves than free persons.
 
theplaydrive said:
That's not true. Native Americans sold other native Americans into slavery. I'm also quite certain that Europeans and Asians sold fellow Europeans and Asians into slavery. However, in the cases of all four groups (Africans, Native Americans, Europeans and Asians), they weren't ever really selling their "own people" into slavery. They were usually selling prisoners of war and members of other tribes, groups and populations.
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Well, I'm glad you concede that it wasn't just about enslaving black folks.
 
apdst said:
They have a word for that. It's called, "propaganda". The Nazis used the same kind of propaganda about the Jews. Does that mean Germany is a racist culture?
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No, it means that the Nazis believed that Jews were inferior just like those who perpetuated scientific literature about blacks being inferior believed that blacks were inferior. This is really just a simple fact apdst. The common belief at the time was that Africans were inferior. I'm constantly surprised at the lengths you'll go to erase the racist history of the United States.

I have a better idea. Hows-a-bout yo post a few for us. Oh, say, 10-15?
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Why would I post something when you just told me you won't believe it anyway? If you were really interested in learning you can easily find the info for yourself.
 
apdst said:
I don't agree. I'm of the opinion that the effort to make blacks a permanent under-class in America didn't start until the NAACP was formed.
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I disagree with that.

Im pretty certain that everyone from the President down in American in the 1860s (Yes. I mean the great and noble and widely respected Abraham Lincoln... who was still a racist) didn't view, or desire to view blacks with the same level of equal treatment as whites.... not yet..
 
apdst said:
What isn't true, is that Africans were enslaved because they were black. What about the blacks that sold the blacks to the Arabs, who then sold them to the Europeans?

The bottom line, is that if Africans had been white and their culture remained the same, they would have still been enslaved.

You're trying to say that white people one day up and said, "I hate niggers. Let's go to Africa and make'em slaves", and that notion is bull****.
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Blackdog said:
What stereo type? African blacks are able to withstand the sun because of where they come from and adaptation. It is a scientific fact that the thicker hair, broader nostrils and a high level of melanin in the skin are adaptations to a hot sunny dry climate.



Considering the lack of education about scientific facts, not much.
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apdst said:
They have a word for that. It's called, "propaganda". The Nazis used the same kind of propaganda about the Jews. Does that mean Germany is a racist culture?



I have a better idea. Hows-a-bout yo post a few for us. Oh, say, 10-15?
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And this my friends is why I have to defend my conservative beliefs so often. Ignorance wrapped in faux intellect.
 
apdst said:
I don't agree. I'm of the opinion that the effort to make blacks a permanent under-class in America didn't start until the NAACP was formed.
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I don't agree. I think it started long before that. I think old honest Abe can explain it....

"I will say, then, that I am not nor have ever been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races---that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the White race." - Abraham Lincoln
 
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apdst said:
What isn't true, is that Africans were enslaved because they were black. What about the blacks that sold the blacks to the Arabs, who then sold them to the Europeans?

The bottom line, is that if Africans had been white and their culture remained the same, they would have still been enslaved.
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Nope, race was definitely a factor just like race was a factor in how the British treated Indians when they colonized India. Race was always a factor.

You're trying to say that white people one day up and said, "I hate niggers. Let's go to Africa and make'em slaves", and that notion is bull****.
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That's actually not what I'm saying, but I understand your need to distort people's arguments.
 
theplaydrive said:
Africans were being called savages, inferior and many other derogatory names since the beginning of the slave trade.
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So were Native Americans.
In these days... anyone without a religious belief in god was considered a savage....... You'll have to do better than this.

The main theories of science during the entire history of slavery were about the inferiority of blacks/Africans.
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Im sure you have some proof of this... lol..
 
snilloctjc said:
And this my friends is why I have to defend my conservative beliefs so often. Ignorance wrapped in faux intellect.
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In other words, no real argument.

Noted.

PS: I think it's racist that you would deny how we are different as some kind of stereo type. I know I can go out without sunblock and not burn. At 49 years old I have yet to get a sun burn. I know I have flared nostrils and thicker hair. This is all a fact. You would deny this like it does not exist.

Well it does and that my friend is no "faux" intellect or ignorance, just a fact.
 
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Caine said:
My point is to show that it was a despicable labor system that, while Americans at the time WERE in fact racists, the entire basis of this labor system was not founded upon racism.

If that were the case, then they would not have ALLOWED free persons of color in the south at all.

And the state with the most free persons of color living in it wouldn't also have 5k more slaves than free persons.
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I have to disagree.

Abraham Lincoln as I quoted above pretty much says no.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/112536-confederate-flag-symbol-treason-157.html#post1059979855
 
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Blackdog said:
I don't agree. I think it started long before that. I think old honest Abe can explain it....

"I will say, then, that I am not nor have ever been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races---that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the White race." - Abraham Lincoln
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This is exactly one of the types of quotes I was referring to in my own response to Apdst's post!

Im glad we were thinking on the same level that time :)
 
theplaydrive said:
Nope, race was definitely a factor just like race was a factor in how the British treated Indians when they colonized India. Race was always a factor.
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You don't think religion had nothing to do with it?

Religion is a driving factor in how folks were treated hundreds of years ago..... as well as race.
 
Caine said:
This is exactly one of the types of quotes I was referring to in my own response to Apdst's post!

Im glad we were thinking on the same level that time :)
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We agree allot. I only disagree with your one point, does not mean you are wrong for certain, I just disagree.
 
Blackdog said:
I have to disagree.

Abraham Lincoln as I quoted above pretty much says no.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/112536-confederate-flag-symbol-treason-157.html#post1059979855
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There is a difference between allowing people to be free, and allowing folks to have the same equal rights in the country.

It was obvious nobody was ready to give blacks equal rights in the U.S. at that time... as I mentioned earlier from the President down they all viewed blacks as inferior.

However,

nothing about your "Honest" (I use that term loosely) Abe quote suggests that the institution of slavery had its pure basis in racism.

It is my opinion that if the entire system of slavery was based on racism... we would not have seen free men of color anywhere in the south at all.
 
Caine said:
There is a difference between allowing people to be free, and allowing folks to have the same equal rights in the country.

It was obvious nobody was ready to give blacks equal rights in the U.S. at that time... as I mentioned earlier from the President down they all viewed blacks as inferior.

However,

nothing about your "Honest" (I use that term loosely) Abe quote suggests that the institution of slavery had its pure basis in racism.

It is my opinion that if the entire system of slavery was based on racism... we would not have seen free men of color anywhere in the south at all.
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This is the one point where I disagree. I think it was based on racism. Some were free, but without equal rights how can it be anything other than racism? It is based on racism. Abe's comments are crystal clear, he was a racist product of his time.
 
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Caine said:
I disagree with that.

Im pretty certain that everyone from the President down in American in the 1860s (Yes. I mean the great and noble and widely respected Abraham Lincoln... who was still a racist) didn't view, or desire to view blacks with the same level of equal treatment as whites.... not yet..
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I think you're taking a different fork in the road, now, because Lincoln not only didn't like blacks, he didn't even want them to stay in the country. The last thing he wanted was a bunch of free blacks running lose.

You're right, though, Lincoln, along with Grant and Sherman were racist as hell. Not only that, Grant was a Jew hatin' SOB.
 
Caine said:
So were Native Americans.
In these days... anyone without a religious belief in god was considered a savage....... You'll have to do better than this.

Im sure you have some proof of this... lol..
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And, the indians believed Europeans were too weak to survive in North America.

There's a feeling of superiority in every culture.
 
Blackdog said:
I don't agree. I think it started long before that. I think old honest Abe can explain it....

"I will say, then, that I am not nor have ever been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races---that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the White race." - Abraham Lincoln
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Touche'

But, I still believe that the actual movement to make blacks a permanent under-class was started by the Progressives, when they saw the political power to be gained.
 
Blackdog said:
This is the one point where I disagree. I think it was based on racism. Some were free, but without equal rights how can it be anything other than racism? It is based on racism. Abe's comments are crystal clear, he was a racist product of his time.
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Not allowing them to have full and equal rights even as "free" men was definitely based upon racism.

Being slaves.... not so much.
 
apdst said:
Because of culture, not because of race.
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What baloney. And you say this and then depart without offering any evidence to support your claim.
 
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