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Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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99percenter said:
Humans as property. Its absolutely disgusting that any "god-fearing" person would justify such heinous act committed in our country. The US was the last industrialized country to abolish slavery because bunch of racist rednecks didn't want to progress as the rest of society did.
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Animal righters are going to be saying the same thing in 150 years.

The same reason the rednecks from the south like strom thurmond tried to filibuster the civil rights acts.
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You should stop with the racism, it doesn't help your already wanting credibility.


Russia abolished serfdom before we abolished slavery. That's embarrassing.
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They didn't abolish serfdom. They simply re-invented it. Just like the United States re-invented slavery and called it the, "company store system", which remained in place well into the 20th Century.
 
slavery was the biggest issue. We had congressman going to the capital with guns. The election of Lincoln was the final straw and that's when the south decided to commit treason.
 
theplaydrive said:
My position does rest on making a moral judgment about Confederates. It rests only on determining whether or not they were traitors. According to the Constitution they were and according to some of them they were.

Even so, as I brought up earlier, because a nation is really just the sum of certain ideas, it could be argued that the Confederacy was the group that was truly living up the US's idea and the Union was the traitor. Nonetheless, in the US, as it is today, the Confederacy does not represent the current United States, so to fly it's flag is to represent a group that did not want to belong to the current USA.
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Wow! Which one of your Libbo college professors blew all that smoke up your butt?
 
whysoserious said:
Oh, a battlefield emblem that was used to rally Confederate soldiers in a war to continue slavery? I thought it was a flag that represented peaceful secession, but apparently it more represents a rallying flag to kill as many Union soldiers as possible in the effort to continue slavery and count blacks as less property on taxes (while still using them as population for representative purposes). Now that you put it that way, I see your point.
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Can you prove that this is WHY the typical Confederate soldier was fighting (strictly to defend an institution which they could never afford to take part in)? I'll answer for you...............NOPE. You can't prove it. Like I said, go back and read Goshin's and apdst's explanations for why these men were fighting, I'm too lazy to type it all over again.
 
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Your Star said:
And there are many historians that would agree with me, my teacher was one of the smartest guys I know, and his classes were some of the most interesting classes I've ever taken. I learned alot in those classes, and all the evidence that I have seen, and continue to see about the civil war points to only one conclusion, the main issue was slavery. When it boils down to it, if slavery weren't in danger, the war wouldn't have happened.
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There are many historians that insist that the Holocaust never happened, too. Most of them, as with historians who think the Civil War was souly about slavery, have little, if any credibility.
 
from apdst berating another poster

You should stop with the racism, it doesn't help your already wanting credibility.
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remember the thread on Perry Opposes confederate license plates in the 2012 Presidential Election section of this board? remember the exchange between you an I over pages 23 - 28 in which I exposed your Mr. Grooms as a convicted murderer serving a life sentence in Indiana and now writing for Aryan supremacy and white supremacy dirtsheets who was one of your main sources in info about slavery?

And your repeated failure to back up your claim about 14 states having state wide referendums on secession instead only coming up with three?

And you dare to raise either the issue of racism or credibility to another poster!!!!
 
Your Star said:
But they ignored the right to freedom that they were taking away from their "property". That dog doesn't bark.
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The same thing was going on in the North. Only, it wasn't called, "slavery".

The industrialists of the North weren't about to let go of their right to enslave their workers. Did you know that in 1861, you could go to prison for quitting a job, if you owed money to the company store?
 
haymarket said:
from apdst berating another poster



remember the thread on Perry Opposes confederate license plates in the 2012 Presidential Election section of this board? remember the exchange between you an I over pages 23 - 28 in which I exposed your Mr. Grooms as a convicted murderer serving a life sentence in Indiana and now writing for Aryan supremacy and white supremacy dirtsheets who was one of your main sources in info about slavery?

And your repeated failure to back up your claim about 14 states having state wide referendums on secession instead only coming up with three?

And you dare to raise either the issue of racism or credibility to another poster!!!!
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You just can't get over that spanking. Can you?

I can appreciate how you feel; you got all those pieces of paper telling everyone that you're smarter than the rest of us and I'm sure you paid some serious jack to get them and you're left lieing face down in the gutter by a truck driver from Louisiana with a high school diploma.
 
apdst said:
The same thing was going on in the North. Only, it wasn't called, "slavery".

The industrialists of the North weren't about to let go of their right to enslave their workers. Did you know that in 1861, you could go to prison for quitting a job, if you owed money to the company store?
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And that was bad, doesn't change the fact that the Confederacy was fighting for the right to own slaves.
 
apdst said:
Wow! Which one of your Libbo college professors blew all that smoke up your butt?
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Nothing I said was inaccurate. In fact, some of what I said actually supports your point. Good job reading.
 
Your Star said:
And that was bad, doesn't change the fact that the Confederacy was fighting for the right to own slaves.
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If that were a fact, you might be right. But, alas, it is not.
 
theplaydrive said:
Nothing I said was inaccurate. In fact, some of what I said actually supports your point. Good job reading.
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You haven't made an accurate appraisel of the time period, yet!
 
FluffyNinja said:
Can you prove that this is WHY the typical Confederate soldier was fighting (strictly to defend an institution which they could never afford to take part in)? I'll answer for you...............NOPE. You can't prove it. Like I said, go back and read Goshin's and apdst's explanations for why these men were fighting, I'm too lazy to type it all over again.
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For what purpose? So that you guys can continue to dance around the issue with a bunch of half-truths? No, thanks. I think everyone here understands that most confederate soldiers did not own slaves, but that is besides the point anyway. Most Nazi soldiers were not part of death camps and did not share an agenda with Hitler, but that doesn't mean the Nazi flag represents freedom of the oppression that were put on them after WWI. The Confederate flag will always represent the institution of slavery and the fight to keep it to those of us who aren't so biased as to try to find any reason to defend it.

Try as you might, but symbols are subjective and I can bet almost anyone who has not been indoctrinated that the Confederate flag represents [insert historically incorrect data here] is reminded of the institution of slavery every time they see it. I know when I see the flag, that is literally all it reminds me of - the Civil war and the fight to keep slavery in the US. Also, again, was there something in the Daily Show you wanted to argue with, or were you just spouting rhetoric as I suspected?

*Edit to add:

You know you have hit a new low when you are citing apdst as research "because you are too lazy".
 
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Your Star said:
It is but alas, you don't care.
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Good, prove it. Show us primary source docs that support your opinion. Thanks in advance.

BTW, the Articles of Secession aren't primary source documentation.
 
whysoserious said:
For what purpose? So that you guys can continue to dance around the issue with a bunch of half-truths? No, thanks. I think everyone here understands that most confederate soldiers did not own slaves, but that is besides the point anyway. Most Nazi soldiers were not part of death camps and did not share an agenda with Hitler, but that doesn't mean the Nazi flag represents freedom of the oppression that were put on them after WWI. The Confederate flag will always represent the institution of slavery and the fight to keep it to those of us who aren't so biased as to try to find any reason to defend it.

Try as you might, but symbols are subjective and I can bet almost anyone who has not been indoctrinated that the Confederate flag represents [insert historically incorrect data here] is reminded of the institution of slavery every time they see it. I know when I see the flag, that is literally all it reminds me of - the Civil war and the fight to keep slavery in the US. Also, again, was there something in the Daily Show you wanted to argue with, or were you just spouting rhetoric as I suspected?
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Actually, they did, but let's steer clear of the half truths. Right? :lamo

You know you have hit a new low when you are citing apdst as research "because you are too lazy".
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Let's see your research. I know I'm wasting my breath and you don't have anything, but I felt the need to call you on it.

BTW, good Godwin!
 
whysoserious said:
For what purpose? So that you guys can continue to dance around the issue with a bunch of half-truths? No, thanks. I think everyone here understands that most confederate soldiers did not own slaves, but that is besides the point anyway. Most Nazi soldiers were not part of death camps and did not share an agenda with Hitler, but that doesn't mean the Nazi flag represents freedom of the oppression that were put on them after WWI. The Confederate flag will always represent the institution of slavery and the fight to keep it to those of us who aren't so biased as to try to find any reason to defend it.

Try as you might, but symbols are subjective and I can bet almost anyone who has not been indoctrinated that the Confederate flag represents [insert historically incorrect data here] is reminded of the institution of slavery every time they see it. I know when I see the flag, that is literally all it reminds me of - the Civil war and the fight to keep slavery in the US. Also, again, was there something in the Daily Show you wanted to argue with, or were you just spouting rhetoric as I suspected?

*Edit to add:

You know you have hit a new low when you are citing apdst as research "because you are too lazy".
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That daily show clip was correct. Just because he doesn't agree with it he dismisses it.
 
99percenter said:
That daily show clip was correct. Just because he doesn't agree with it he dismisses it.
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I'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that John Daily is a ****ing comedian and not an historian. :rofl

A word to the wise: don't get your historical education from a comedian. That has fail written all over it.
 
Goshin said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think that Civil War was entirely about slavery, or that the average Southern soldier was fighting FOR slavery.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Slavery was ONE issue, and yes ONE causal factor, but it was far from being the only one. It is highly arguable if it was even a primary cause, except in the sense that it affected the economy of the South and drove some of the resistance to Federal taxes/tariffs/trade restrictions that were actually key causes of the war.
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It doesn't need to be the sole reason. It's a reason, and a reason that cannot be divorced from the whole package. Same with the notions of state sovereignty, and with armed rebellion against the United States. All of these are part of what the Confederacy stood for. And you cannot have part of this package without the rest, else it wouldn't be the Confederacy anymore. Protecting slavery was part of it. Rebelling was part of it. Being angry about the northerner candidate being lawfully elected by the people was part of it, too.

Whatever positive things someone might feel about the Confederacy, the bad must be taken with the good. And the bad, in this case, involved setting up a different government than the United States, with a whole different constitution, and levying war on the US. These were acts of treason. They wouldn't be, legally, if the Confederacy had won and were a sovereign nation. But those who support the Confederacy in the US are American citizens, who are advocating loyalty to and supremacy for another country.

How does that work?
 
whysoserious said:
Oh, a battlefield emblem that was used to rally Confederate soldiers in a war to continue slavery? I thought it was a flag that represented peaceful secession, but apparently it more represents a rallying flag to kill as many Union soldiers as possible in the effort to continue slavery and count blacks as less property on taxes (while still using them as population for representative purposes). Now that you put it that way, I see your point.
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That still goes on, today. :rofl
 
theplaydrive said:
Also, some Confederates also considered themselves rebels and traitors, so double fail as usual.
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Really? Traitors? It's never smart to try to put yourself in the minds of people who've been dead for a couple hundred years. It's not admissible in court.
 
apdst said:
I'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that John Daily is a ****ing comedian and not an historian. :rofl

A word to the wise: don't get your historical education from a comedian. That has fail written all over it.
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I have know idea who john daily is.

07_fail.jpg
 
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apdst said:
Actually, they did, but let's steer clear of the half truths. Right? :lamo
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Really? You believe that the average Nazi wanted to exterminate the Jews? And in that respect, would you not say the average Confederate believed in the institution of slavery and wanted to continue it?

apdst said:
Let's see your research. I know I'm wasting my breath and you don't have anything, but I felt the need to call you on it.

BTW, good Godwin!
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Well, my argument, since I am sure you didn't read it, was that symbols are subjective and the confederate flag today is seen by most as a symbol of slavery and the fight to keep it. Here is an opinion poll on the Confederate Flag:

civilwar.jpg

This is a better representation of why people still wave that ridiculous flag around:

This poll was taken in Columbia, SC. Look at the responses from these boneheads.

racist ****ers.jpg

More than half said that the Union should have lost! And even out of that crowd, 30% of the people think the flag should not be flown anymore! That's in Columbia, SC, a place where more than half of the people think the Civil War should have been won by the south.
 
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Paschendale said:
It doesn't need to be the sole reason. It's a reason, and a reason that cannot be divorced from the whole package. Same with the notions of state sovereignty, and with armed rebellion against the United States. All of these are part of what the Confederacy stood for. And you cannot have part of this package without the rest, else it wouldn't be the Confederacy anymore. Protecting slavery was part of it. Rebelling was part of it. Being angry about the northerner candidate being lawfully elected by the people was part of it, too.

Whatever positive things someone might feel about the Confederacy, the bad must be taken with the good. And the bad, in this case, involved setting up a different government than the United States, with a whole different constitution, and levying war on the US. These were acts of treason. They wouldn't be, legally, if the Confederacy had won and were a sovereign nation. But those who support the Confederacy in the US are American citizens, who are advocating loyalty to and supremacy for another country.

How does that work?
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No one is trying to seperate the issue of slavery from the causes of the Civil War. We're only trying to put things in the proper perspective and illustrate that the inaccurate notion that slavery was the soul cause of the Civil War.

We hear about the evils of secession and how terrible southers are, yet when the New Hampshire legislature authored a bill authorizing secession, the, "southers are all evil rednecks", crowd didn't seem too upset about it.

It sucks when people view history through a politicall correct spectrum.
 
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