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Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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Your Star said:
You mean the slaves that died under slavery? I'm a southerner, but I never got flying the confederate flag, it's not a flag of freedom, or states rights, it's a flag of oppression.
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Again that's how some see it, others don't. It's just a flag.
 
theplaydrive said:
LOL no. I'm pointing out the irony of those who think they're being patriots by flying the flag of traitors.
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Ya'll throw around words like, "treason", and, "rebel", and now, "traitor", not only in the absolutely wrong historical context, but I'm starting to think ya'll don't know what these words actually mean!

Now the Confederates were trators? :rofl

Damn...just...damn!
 
theplaydrive said:
I get the point. You and others aren't getting mine.

It would just as treasonous to fly the American flag in Britain if the US had lost as it is to fly the Confederate flag in the United States.

I'm talking about flying a flag that is treasonous TO THE COUNTRY THAT IT IS BEING FLOWN IN. Obviously, the American flag represents treason to the British flag which is why a British person flying the American flag would be just as ironic as an American flying a Confederate flag.
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In the US, treason is legally the act of trying to overthrow the government, or aiding the enemies of the USA, or advocating the overthrow of the government. (And we've had lots of people who have done that in recent years who were still not convicted of legal treason, for some reason.) Flying the stars-n-bars as a remembrance of the War Between the States is not, itself, treasonous.
 
Your Star said:
You mean the slaves that died under slavery? I'm a southerner, but I never got flying the confederate flag, it's not a flag of freedom, or states rights, it's a flag of oppression.
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By that logic, don't ever fly the Stars and Stripes, because you will equally not get it.
 
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MaggieD said:
I think you put too much weight on those who honor their rich history by flying a flag that left millions of their compatriots dead in the dust.
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Perhaps. There are many people in this country who have ancestors who fought in the war and the flag represents the bravery of those who fought for what they believed in. It is putting a lot of weight to what simply represents the fortitude of some people's ancestors fighting for principles and that many of their descendants still believe in today. At the same time, the contradiction still remains because many of those principles were not only atrocious, but were also based on an abandonment of the United States. It doesn't make sense to love the US while flying the flag of those who did not love it enough to improve it, but decided to leave it, particularly in public places.
 
Your Star said:
You mean the slaves that died under slavery? I'm a southerner, but I never got flying the confederate flag, it's not a flag of freedom, or states rights, it's a flag of oppression.
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No, I mean the heroes that gave their lives in defense of their principles. You know, your relatives. Misguided? No doubt. Honorable? Yes.
 
theplaydrive said:
Perhaps. There are many people in this country who have ancestors who fought in the war and the flag represents the bravery of those who fought for what they believed in. It is putting a lot of weight to what simply represents the fortitude of some people's ancestors fighting for principles and that many of their descendants still believe in today. At the same time, the contradiction still remains because many of those principles were not only atrocious, but were also based on an abandonment of the United States. It doesn't make sense to love the US while flying the flag of those who did not love it enough to improve it, but decided to leave it, particularly in public places.
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Bolded portion -- in my mind, that's it exactly. But then I'm a rather fair-minded individual. ;)
 
Blackdog said:
Again that's how some see it, others don't. It's just a flag.
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I'm not saying otherwise, I'm just saying I don't understand it, and probably never will, even as a southerner.
 
Goshin said:
In the US, treason is legally the act of trying to overthrow the government, or aiding the enemies of the USA, or advocating the overthrow of the government. (And we've had lots of people who have done that in recent years who were still not convicted of legal treason, for some reason.) Flying the stars-n-bars as a remembrance of the War Between the States is not, itself, treasonous.
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I don't think flying the flag is treason. I think the flag symbolizes treason.

This is the definition of treason in the Constitution:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

The Confederacy participated in both of the bold things. Moreover, I don't understand the argument that the Civil War was just a war between states. The Confederacy considered itself an entirely different country. It was fighting for independence.

If the US had lost the war against Britain and people flew the US flag in Britain today, would you not consider it strange that British people are flying the flag of those who no longer wanted to be British?
 
apdst said:
Ya'll throw around words like, "treason", and, "rebel", and now, "traitor", not only in the absolutely wrong historical context, but I'm starting to think ya'll don't know what these words actually mean!
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Considering that the US government indicted several Confederates on charges of treason, I think you don't actually know what treason is.
 
theplaydrive said:
Perhaps. There are many people in this country who have ancestors who fought in the war and the flag represents the bravery of those who fought for what they believed in. It is putting a lot of weight to what simply represents the fortitude of some people's ancestors fighting for principles and that many of their descendants still believe in today. At the same time, the contradiction still remains because many of those principles were not only atrocious, but were also based on an abandonment of the United States. It doesn't make sense to love the US while flying the flag of those who did not love it enough to improve it, but decided to leave it, particularly in public places.
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For many it simply means rebel, against the state or laws they don't like etc. Hell some are just being idiots.

I think you are putting far to much stock into something that is just not that big a deal in the long run.
 
theplaydrive said:
Right, and it represents the history of people who abandoned the country.
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Or.......it represents the history of people who believed THEY were abandoned by their country. Remember, believe it or not, there were other issues besides just slavery which led up to the separation (location of the trans-continental railroad, tariffs, claimed 10th Amendment violations by the govt., etc.). Many cecessionists simply believed that they were adhering to T. Jefferson's words as written in the Declaration - they believed that if our Revolutionary Fathers had justification to revolt, well, then they did as well. Just playing Devil's advocate here. :shrug:
 
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theplaydrive said:
Considering that the US government indicted several Confederates on charges of treason, I think you don't actually know what treason is.
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Also, some Confederates also considered themselves rebels and traitors, so double fail as usual.
 
MaggieD said:
No, I mean the heroes that gave their lives in defense of their principles. You know, your relatives. Misguided? No doubt. Honorable? Yes.
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I just fail to see why I should honor someone/a failed government who fought for principals that I not only disagree with, but that I think are horrendous, even if they were my ancestors. I doubt anyone here would call the guys who flew planes into the world trade center, or the guys that are setting up IED's in Iraq, and Afghanistan hero's, but they are fighting for what they believe in too. What they believe in is more important then the fact that they believe in it and are willing to die for it.
 
theplaydrive said:
I don't think flying the flag is treason. I think the flag symbolizes treason.

This is the definition of treason in the Constitution:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

The Confederacy participated in both of the bold things. Moreover, I don't understand the argument that the Civil War was just a war between states. The Confederacy considered itself an entirely different country. It was fighting for independence.

If the US had lost the war against Britain and people flew the US flag in Britain today, would you not consider it strange that British people are flying the flag of those who no longer wanted to be British?
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You're asserting a singular reason for flying the flag: advocacy of seperatism from the USA.

In point of fact, people fly that flag for many different reasons.

There is a small proportion of racists who use it as a symbol of their brand of idiocy.

There are many many more who fly it as a remembrance of the Civil War.

Some fly it as an assertion of the principle of State's Rights.

Some fly it as a general symbol of Rebellion.

Some fly it because they support the concept of State Seccessionism.... not so much the historical secession of the South, but the right of States to seceed in general.

Others use it because Bo and Luke Duke had it on their hot-rod. I know a black guy who owns a "General Lee" replica, complete with Stars-n-Bars flag on the hood. :lol:

Some fly it because they like Hank Jr, Jack Daniels and livin' in Dixie, and that's as deep as their meaning gets. :mrgreen:
 
Goshin said:
In the US, treason is legally the act of trying to overthrow the government, or aiding the enemies of the USA, or advocating the overthrow of the government. (And we've had lots of people who have done that in recent years who were still not convicted of legal treason, for some reason.) Flying the stars-n-bars as a remembrance of the War Between the States is not, itself, treasonous.
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Agreed. But taking up arms against the USA most certainly was. As was trying to destroy the USA as a political and governmental entity. Both of those acts were indeed treasonous.
 
FluffyNinja said:
Or.......it represents the history of people who believed THEYwere abandoned by their county. Remember, believe it or not, there were other issues besides just slavery which led up to the separation (location of the trans-continental ralroad, tariffs, claimed 10th Amendment violations by the govt., etc.). Many cecessionists simply believed that they were adhering to T. Jefferson's words as written in the Declaration - they believed that if our Revolutionary Fathers had justification to revolt, well, then they did as well. Just playing Devil's advocate here. :shrug:
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This is a fair and good point. I understand that they felt abandoned by their country which kind of makes me think of another dilemma.

The United States, like all nations, is really just the sum of certain ideas. If the Confederacy was the group that truly represented those ideas, then they were the ones who were truly loyal to the United States. The conflict pretty much calls into question what the true definition of "nation" is. Can those who secede represent the true nation more than those who do not?
 
Your Star said:
I just fail to see why I should honor someone/a failed government who fought for principals that I not only disagree with, but that I think are horrendous, even if they were my ancestors. I doubt anyone here would call the guys who flew planes into the world trade center, or the guys that are setting up IED's in Iraq, and Afghanistan hero's, but they are fighting for what they believe in too. What they believe in is more important then the fact that they believe in it and are willing to die for it.
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There are plenty that call them hero's. We call the people who call them this terrorists, Islamist etc. But they exist.
 
theplaydrive said:
Considering that the US government indicted several Confederates on charges of treason, I think you don't actually know what treason is.
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Indicted not tried, nor convicted and they all recieved amnesty in 1869.
 
FluffyNinja said:
Or.......it represents the history of people who believed THEY were abandoned by their country. Remember, believe it or not, there were other issues besides just slavery which led up to the separation (location of the trans-continental railroad, tariffs, claimed 10th Amendment violations by the govt., etc.). Many cecessionists simply believed that they were adhering to T. Jefferson's words as written in the Declaration - they believed that if our Revolutionary Fathers had justification to revolt, well, then they did as well. Just playing Devil's advocate here. :shrug:
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Are you kidding? slavery was the only reason for secession. They even said it as their only reason in their secession documents. Jon stewart explains

[video]http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-december-9-2010/the-south-s-secession-commemoration[/video]
 
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Blackdog said:
There are plenty that call them hero's. We call the people who call them this terrorists, Islamist etc. But they exist.
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That wasn't my point, my point was there is no point calling someone a hero based solely on the fact that they believe in something, and that we must look into what they believe.
 
to me the. Confederate flag is a simbol of rebellion against tyrany.
 
haymarket said:
Agreed. But taking up arms against the USA most certainly was. As was trying to destroy the USA as a political and governmental entity. Both of those acts were indeed treasonous.
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And the Confederacy did neither, which is why they technically didn't commit treason.
 
Goshin said:
You're asserting a singular reason for flying the flag: advocacy of seperatism from the USA.

In point of fact, people fly that flag for many different reasons.

There is a small proportion of racists who use it as a symbol of their brand of idiocy.

There are many many more who fly it as a remembrance of the Civil War.

Some fly it as an assertion of the principle of State's Rights.

Some fly it as a general symbol of Rebellion.

Some fly it because they support the concept of State Seccessionism.... not so much the historical secession of the South, but the right of States to seceed in general.
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I understand people fly it for different reasons. What I don't understand is how people can completely separate the flag from it's past as a symbol of separatism from the USA.

Others use it because Bo and Luke Duke had it on their hot-rod. I know a black guy who owns a "General Lee" replica, complete with Stars-n-Bars flag on the hood. :lol:

Some fly it because they like Hank Jr, Jack Daniels and livin' in Dixie, and that's as deep as their meaning gets. :mrgreen:
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I know a black guy who loved the Dukes of Hazzard and had action figures and cars with the flag on it when he was a kid. His dad was from the South though and had experienced a lot of racism. He wasn't too happy about it, but his kid wanted to he let it go.
 
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