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Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?


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You need to get your facts straight (and cut out the flaming).

For one thing, a hostile group of Southerners basically had Ft. Sumter surrounded and cut off from basic supplies. That could have been construed as an act of war. But fortunately, one of the many things the Confederacy didn't have was the shrewd leader Abraham Lincoln. Instead of attacking, he sent a supply vessel to Ft. Sumter so that the men could have food on their table. The aggressive Southerners, of course, wanted nothing to do with this, choosing to assault the fort instead.

Also, you beg the question of the legality of secession. Pro-secessionists WANT it to be legal, and they keep crying "10th Amendment," despite the fact that the Supreme Court has clearly ruled that this is not the case.

Can I ask you something? Why are you and a few others so eager to defend a "nation" (and I use that word VERY loosely) that established itself as a sworn enemy of the United States of America? I, for one, and SO glad that the Confederacy got crushed in the Civil War. United States of America, not Divided States of America.
All this has been hashed out, your side doesn't want to objectively look at the facts and really doesn't have a leg to stand on. Sorry if I can't take you seriously anymore. I'll leave you with this, you refuse evidence that the north did just as much to cause the war as the south, possibly more. The truth isn't flaming, and ignorance of counter points doesn't make you anymore correct. Frankly I'm getting bored.
 
...Frankly I'm getting bored.

yes, we are all getting kinda bored of having to dispute such dishonest claims like "the USA is a federation of sovereign nation-states", "Ft. Sumter was illegally occupied by Federal troops, which was an act of war", and "all of the states of the CSA had a state referendum on secession".
 
yes, we are all getting kinda bored of having to dispute such dishonest claims like "the USA is a federation of sovereign nation-states", "Ft. Sumter was illegally occupied by Federal troops, which was an act of war", and "all of the states of the CSA had a state referendum on secession".
You want to use the whole context?
 
We, the People, in order to form a perfect UNION. Establish justice and insure DOMESTIC tranquility. Provide for the COMMON defense. Promote the GENERAL welfare and secure the blessings of liberty, to OURSELVES and our posterity...do ordain & establish this Constitution of the UNITED States of America.

happy now??? (yes, I memorized it years ago)


:)

So where does that say the united states is a single nation? You have proven nothing.

Now, if only there were some evidence to support my contention that the federal government is a union of independent sovereign nation-states. Hm, if it only contained the word "union", I'd really have a good argument.

(BTW, Your memory is faulty. You made a mistake, and a significant one.)
 
Let's straighten out some terminology. A "nation-state" is a country based upon an ethnic grouping. None of the States currently in the union fit that description, and you'll have a heck of a time convincing me that the people of North Carolina are essentially a different culture than South Carolina.

You may continue with your misguided argument that we are not "One nation, Under God, indivisble," if you wish.

So East Germany and West Germany weren't different nation-states?
 
Now, if only there were some evidence to support my contention that the federal government is a union of independent sovereign nation-states.

We are all waiting for you to back up your argument that North Carolina and South Carolina are different in the same way that way, Germany and France are.
 
do you know how I define a "redneck"? a racist white person. poverty need not be included.

no, its not bigotry...to hate racism and racists.

it's nice when you are able to redefine terms as to not apply to you and the folks you support... isn't it?

how about "cracker"... i'm guessing that not racist or bigoted in your dictionary either.


i gotta say, i'm so not impressed with you tonight... you've taken a big hit on the consistency scale... your claim that you hate racists and bigots is false, blatantly so.
 
yes, we are all getting kinda bored of having to dispute such dishonest claims like "the USA is a federation of sovereign nation-states", "Ft. Sumter was illegally occupied by Federal troops, which was an act of war", and "all of the states of the CSA had a state referendum on secession".

Do you deny that upon winning their independence from Britain they were independent, sovereign states?
 
So East Germany and West Germany weren't different nation-states?

Actually East and West Germany were based on who controlled what part of Germany after WWII. It wasn't based on a "nation-state" it was based on whether it was controlled by the US or the USSR.

So very bad example. A better example of the "nation-state" would be the re-unification of East and West Germany into one German state to match the one German nation.
 
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We are all waiting for you to back up your argument that North Carolina and South Carolina are different in the same way that way, Germany and France are.

Well, North Carolina and South Carolina are separate states, just as Germany and France are separate states. So they differ in the same way.
 
Well, North Carolina and South Carolina are separate states, just as Germany and France are separate states. So they differ in the same way.

Germany and France speak different languages and are different cultures.
 
Actually East and West Germany were based on who controlled what part of Germany after WWII. It wasn't based on a "nation-state" it was based on whether it was controlled by the US or the USSR.

So very bad example. A better example of the "nation-state" would be the re-unification of East and West Germany into one German state to match the one German nation.

Good point. I'll agree with you that the term "nation" describes "a people" and has a different connotation than the term "state" which refers to a polity. For example, the ancient Greeks were a single nation but were many states.

I used the term nation-state purposely, and possibly inadvisably, to convey the concept of a sovereign state. In light of your objection, I think the term sovereign state is more accurate, and I'll use that term from now on.
 
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Good point. I'll agree with you that the term "nation" describes "a people" and has a different connotation than the term "state" which refers to a polity. For example, the ancient Greeks were a single nation but were many states.

I used the term nation-state purposely, and possibly inadvisably, to convey the concept of a sovereign state. In light of your objection, I think the term sovereign state is more accurate, and I'll use that term from now on.

Much better. Carry on.
 
Can I ask you something? Why are you and a few others so eager to defend a "nation" (and I use that word VERY loosely) that established itself as a sworn enemy of the United States of America? I, for one, and SO glad that the Confederacy got crushed in the Civil War. United States of America, not Divided States of America.
You assume way to much here. I can only speak for myself, but I have never and never will defend the institution of slavery as "morally acceptable". I can, as a historian, appreciate the legality and importance of it economically at the time.

History must always be reviewed in the correct context. The problem that bleeding heart Liberals have when it comes to history is, more often, than not, they attempt to apply modern values and ethical standards to events which happened centuries ago. This is not a practical approach to studying history. Down this road lies propaganda and revisionism.

That being said, in regards to secession and the war, I do not "defend" the CSA as having the moral "high ground", only the CONSTITUTIONAL high ground. Right, wrong, or indifferent, the South, in 1860, had a legal right to secede, draft a constitution, elect leaders, and to occupy and defend their own property.

The Union had no Constitutional recourse, therefore, the only solution for Lincoln, was to provoke the CSA into a war. Ordering Union troops to hold their ground at Ft. Sumter (in Confederate-held S. Carolina) even after they'd been asked to leave peacefully, or turning away CSA diplomats who sought a peaceful separation, was just part of the process.

While I know that the secession was completely constitutional, and that SCOTUS could/would never have upheld treason convictions for any Confederate...................I DO believe that Secession, at the time, was not wise. Again, I in no way condone slavery, but we must look a bit deeper. Like it or not, the North (specifically New England factories) profited greatly from Southern Cotton. Many prominent, so-called "abolitionist," Congressmen were from those states. The fact is, Congress refused to lower the tariff or to consider a southern route for the trans-continental RR because the the North wanted to maintain some control over the vast revenues from Cotton exports (it is an irrefuteable FACT that Southern exports accounted for almost 70% of total US exports in the years prior to the Civil War).

Is ANYONE here willing to argue that the South's economy was not being exploited by the North and that this great economic success would not have been possible without slavery? The evidence tends to lead one to believe that the North wasn't as "anti-slavery" as we've typically been taught (at least not Northern Political leaders)

Once again, I'm not defending the "peculiar institution" nor the act of secession as morally right or good. I don't think the act of secession was a particlarly "smart" thing to do. But I CAN see it all in its proper context. I CAN see the justifcation and the legality of it. And I CAN empathize with Southern leaders and sympathize with the average southerner who never owned a slave but got caught up in the whole thing just to defend his homeland from an invading force.
 
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its unbelievable sometimes, what folks say regarding the Civil War.

No kidding.

All this has been hashed out, your side doesn't want to objectively look at the facts and really doesn't have a leg to stand on. Sorry if I can't take you seriously anymore. I'll leave you with this, you refuse evidence that the north did just as much to cause the war as the south, possibly more. The truth isn't flaming, and ignorance of counter points doesn't make you anymore correct. Frankly I'm getting bored.

WE'RE the ones not being objective?! LOL! The South had slavery, the South tried to starve out Fort Sumter, the South attacked it when a relief vessel was sent, and ultimately, THE SOUTH LOST THE CIVIL WAR. GET OVER IT ALREADY.

You want to use the whole context?

Oh you mean what the Civil War was all about, at its core? Slavery, and nothing else. "States rights," "War of Northern Aggression," etc. were all pro-slavery propaganda terms that the South conjured up to defend their war of defense of slavery.

You assume way to much here. I can only speak for myself, but I have never and never will defend the institution of slavery as "morally acceptable". I can, as a historian, appreciate the legality and importance of it economically at the time.

History must always be reviewed in the correct context. The problem that bleeding heart Liberals have when it comes to history is, more often, than not, they attempt to apply modern values and ethical standards to events which happened centuries ago. This is not a practical approach to studying history. Down this road lies propaganda and revisionism.

That being said, in regards to secession and the war, I do not "defend" the CSA as having the moral "high ground", only the CONSTITUTIONAL high ground. Right, wrong, or indifferent, the South, in 1860, had a legal right to secede, draft a constitution, elect leaders, and to occupy and defend their own property.

For someone who claims to know a whole lot about history, the highlighted comment automatically disqualifies you from making such an arrogant claim. And I'm sure you know what this "correct context" is? A context that slavery isn't such a bad thing? Is that what you're getting at?

The Union had no Constitutional recourse, therefore, the only solution for Lincoln, was to provoke the CSA into a war. Ordering Union troops to hold their ground at Ft. Sumter (in Confederate-held S. Carolina) even after they'd been asked to leave peacefully, or turning away CSA diplomats who sought a peaceful separation, was just part of the process.

While I know that the secession was completely constitutional, and that SCOTUS could/would never have upheld treason convictions for any Confederate...................I DO believe that Secession, at the time, was not wise. Again, I in no way condone slavery, but we must look a bit deeper. Like it or not, the North (specifically New England factories) profited greatly from Southern Cotton. Many prominent, so-called "abolitionist," Congressmen were from those states. The fact is, Congress refused to lower the tariff or to consider a southern route for the trans-continental RR because the the North wanted to maintain some control over the vast revenues from Cotton exports (it is an irrefuteable FACT that Southern exports accounted for almost 70% of total US exports in the years prior to the Civil War).

Is ANYONE here willing to argue that the South's economy was not being exploited by the North and that this great economic success would not have been possible without slavery? The evidence tends to lead one to believe that the North wasn't as "anti-slavery" as we've typically been taught (at least not Northern Political leaders)

I don't give a flying **** what the South thought about what the United States of America was doing to it. Because in the pro-American view--you know, the one that actually salutes the US flag instead of shooting at it--we have always been one nation. Period. This secessionist bullcrap can go to hell.

Once again, I'm not defending the "peculiar institution" nor the act of secession as morally right or good. I don't think the act of secession was a particlarly "smart" thing to do. But I CAN see it all in its proper context. I CAN see the justifcation and the legality of it. And I CAN empathize with Southern leaders and sympathize with the average southerner who never owned a slave but got caught up in the whole thing just to defend his homeland from an invading force.

And why aren't you empathizing with the African-Americans, whose lifelong bondage was what fueled this entire problem? Are you sympathetic toward them, too? Are you sympathetic toward an institution that carved out entire tribes, captured them, and made them property of white men? Or do you see them as just cogs in the machine that were on the wrong side of history?

What the South did is in absolutely no way, shape or form worthy of sympathy. What they did ranks down there with the Trail of Tears as one of the darkest chapters in American history. Pride? That's worthy of pride? Are you kidding me?
 
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No kidding.



WE'RE the ones not being objective?! LOL! The South had slavery, the South tried to starve out Fort Sumter, the South attacked it when a relief vessel was sent, and ultimately, THE SOUTH LOST THE CIVIL WAR. GET OVER IT ALREADY.



Oh you mean what the Civil War was all about, at its core? Slavery, and nothing else. "States rights," "War of Northern Aggression," etc. were all pro-slavery propaganda terms that the South conjured up to defend their war of defense of slavery.



For someone who claims to know a whole lot about history, the highlighted comment automatically disqualifies you from making such an arrogant claim. And I'm sure you know what this "correct context" is? A context that slavery isn't such a bad thing? Is that what you're getting at?



I don't give a flying **** what the South thought about what the United States of America was doing to it. Because in the pro-American view--you know, the one that actually salutes the US flag instead of shooting at it--we have always been one nation. Period. This secessionist bullcrap can go to hell.



And why aren't you empathizing with the African-Americans, whose lifelong bondage was what fueled this entire problem? Are you sympathetic toward them, too? Are you sympathetic toward an institution that carved out entire tribes, captured them, and made them property of white men? Or do you see them as just cogs in the machine that were on the wrong side of history?
Okay great, you are reusing the same arguments and not offering any credible backing of those things. Then you are asserting that the very simplistic "it was about slaves" position is correct where it isn't so. You are feigning incredulity here in some kind of attempt to act like those of us who have presented the entire story are somehow revisionists or evil when in fact your side is attempting a white wash. Don't point fingers here, accept the fact that you are excusing northern economic manipulation, you are excusing northern trespass, and northern propagandizing. Every SINGLE person sharing the side of the south has acknowledge southern wrongdoing but for some reason those wanting to defend the northern position cannot acknowledge that perhaps the north was out of line as well.

So far in this thread the northern backers have called us "racist", "traitor", "hick", "redneck", and accused us of ignorance when the facts and the history back our side up. So who exactly is holding the weak hand and trying to lie and bluff their way out of it? Hint: It ain't the south.
 
Okay great, you are reusing the same arguments and not offering any credible backing of those things. Then you are asserting that the very simplistic "it was about slaves" position is correct where it isn't so. You are feigning incredulity here in some kind of attempt to act like those of us who have presented the entire story are somehow revisionists or evil when in fact your side is attempting a white wash. Don't point fingers here, accept the fact that you are excusing northern economic manipulation, you are excusing northern trespass, and northern propagandizing. Every SINGLE person sharing the side of the south has acknowledge southern wrongdoing but for some reason those wanting to defend the northern position cannot acknowledge that perhaps the north was out of line as well.

Awww, boo-hoo, the Big Bad North told the precious, innocent South that it needed to grow out of its backward, racist, institution of slavery. Get over it! The South got what they deserved in the form of getting their asses whupped. The South LOST. Quit trying to fight a war that's been over for more than a century.

So far in this thread the northern backers have called us "racist", "traitor", "hick", "redneck", and accused us of ignorance when the facts and the history back our side up. So who exactly is holding the weak hand and trying to lie and bluff their way out of it? Hint: It ain't the south.

What facts? The fact that the South declared itself the mortal enemy of the United States of America? The fact that the South caused more Americans to die in combat on her soil than in all her other wars combined? The facts that the South created the institution that led to this whole mess in the first place? The fact that said institution was blatantly racist, a fact conveniently overlooked by sympathizers of the Confederacy?
 
Awww, boo-hoo, the Big Bad North told the precious, innocent South that it needed to grow out of its backward, racist, institution of slavery. Get over it! The South got what they deserved in the form of getting their asses whupped. The South LOST. Quit trying to fight a war that's been over for more than a century.
So you want to stick to that line of thinking? Fine, but it's been presented that slavery was one of many issues unresolved by the north, fortunately there are people in this country that ask question beyond eight grade history and learn about more things than "South bad, North good". You want to feel good about the outcome of the war, go ahead. Minus slavery ending the Union gained more power than it was ever supposed to have and we are still paying the bill for that to this day(Not talking money, talking about the cost of liberty so don't try finding economic data). You think you're being funny but every single time a new abusive federal program is introduced you can thank the north for getting the ball rolling, that isn't an opinion, the north wanted to expand central powers and THAT IS A FACT.


What facts? The fact that the South declared itself the mortal enemy of the United States of America?
If you mean the south left the Union and the Union occupied southern land with a miliatary presence that was unwelcome and the south took exception to that and some northerners got starved and shot for being occupying assholes. Sure, why not.
The fact that the South caused more Americans to die in combat on her soil than in all her other wars combined?
Yawn. Who took the first agressive action? The north did, sorry to burst your bubble on that.
The facts that the South created the institution that led to this whole mess in the first place? The fact that said institution was blatantly racist, a fact conveniently overlooked by sympathizers of the Confederacy?
LOL! Now THAT is revision. The south wasn't even in the U.S. at the time slavery was founded. If you can't even get that one right how can we even take you seriously?
 
it's nice when you are able to redefine terms as to not apply to you and the folks you support... isn't it?

how about "cracker"... i'm guessing that not racist or bigoted in your dictionary either.


i gotta say, i'm so not impressed with you tonight... you've taken a big hit on the consistency scale... your claim that you hate racists and bigots is false, blatantly so.

LOL. cracker is racist. Okay what is the PC term for saying what I like to eat with my coffee in the morning.
 
So you want to stick to that line of thinking? Fine, but it's been presented that slavery was one of many issues unresolved by the north, fortunately there are people in this country that ask question beyond eight grade history and learn about more things than "South bad, North good". You want to feel good about the outcome of the war, go ahead. Minus slavery ending the Union gained more power than it was ever supposed to have and we are still paying the bill for that to this day(Not talking money, talking about the cost of liberty so don't try finding economic data). You think you're being funny but every single time a new abusive federal program is introduced you can thank the north for getting the ball rolling, that isn't an opinion, the north wanted to expand central powers and THAT IS A FACT.


If you mean the south left the Union and the Union occupied southern land with a miliatary presence that was unwelcome and the south took exception to that and some northerners got starved and shot for being occupying assholes. Sure, why not. Yawn. Who took the first agressive action? The north did, sorry to burst your bubble on that. LOL! Now THAT is revision. The south wasn't even in the U.S. at the time slavery was founded. If you can't even get that one right how can we even take you seriously?

The bolded is incorrect. The south was occupying federal land. Secession is illegal pursuant to the constitution and therefore the south had no right to claim federal territory as their own.
 
The bolded is incorrect. The south was occupying federal land. Secession is illegal pursuant to the constitution and therefore the south had no right to claim federal territory as their own.
Again. If your side wants to stick to the simplest and thus most inaccurate version go ahead, it isn't my problem.
 
The bolded is incorrect. The south was occupying federal land....

moe importantly, Ft. Sumter was govt. property, owned by the United States.

apologists for the CSA can't claim the war was about property rights, and then disregard the property rights of the USA.
 
moe importantly, Ft. Sumter was govt. property, owned by the United States.

apologists for the CSA can't claim the war was about property rights, and then disregard the property rights of the USA.
No matter how many times you repeat this it is not correct. I'm done with you.
 
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