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Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

Is the Confederate flag a symbol of treason?

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theplaydrive said:
I understand people fly it for different reasons. What I don't understand is how people can completely separate the flag from it's past as a symbol of separatism from the USA.
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Because some of those folks can view the Civil War in the proper historical context.
 
apdst said:
And the Confederacy did neither, which is why they technically didn't commit treason.
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Sorry apdst but you have not one shred of credibility when you talk about this era in American history. You are the same person who bragged that they could provide proof of eleven Confederate states pluys three border states having state wide referendums on secession.

from apdst in his own words

What I will do, however, prove that all 11 Confederate states and 3 border states had state wide referendums on secession.
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You showed us three and in one of those the vote led to a split of that same state.

Sorry, but you have no credibility on this issue and have proven that recently.
 
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99percenter said:
Are you kidding? slavery was the main reason for secession. They even said it their main reason in their constitution. Jon stewart explains

[video]http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-december-9-2010/the-south-s-secession-commemoration[/video]
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I think an entertainment show, is not a good source to learn history.
 
apdst said:
Indicted not tried, nor convicted and they all recieved amnesty in 1869.
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Yeah, I know. But again, Confederates referred to themselves as traitors and rebels, so I have no idea why you attribute the use of those terms solely to me and others in this thread.
 
Your Star said:
I just fail to see why I should honor someone/a failed government who fought for principals that I not only disagree with, but that I think are horrendous, even if they were my ancestors. I doubt anyone here would call the guys who flew planes into the world trade center, or the guys that are setting up IED's in Iraq, and Afghanistan hero's, but they are fighting for what they believe in too. What they believe in is more important then the fact that they believe in it and are willing to die for it.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think that Civil War was entirely about slavery, or that the average Southern soldier was fighting FOR slavery.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Slavery was ONE issue, and yes ONE causal factor, but it was far from being the only one. It is highly arguable if it was even a primary cause, except in the sense that it affected the economy of the South and drove some of the resistance to Federal taxes/tariffs/trade restrictions that were actually key causes of the war.


The average Southern soldier was far too poor to own any slaves. Slaves were expensive. If anything, poor Southerners should have resented the institution as it gave the rich a labor pool they didn't have to pay (just feed and house), which probably undercut wages for free labor. Historically, the average Southern soldier was fighting for his State, and for State's Rights vs the central government. To Billy Bob Infantryman, slavery was a side issue, if an issue at all.

The Southern army was outnumbered 4 to 1, had not one single cannon factory compared to the North which had many, possessed no Navy to speak of, and was generally very much the underdog. Yet they won most early campaigns thanks to the strategic and tactical skills of their Generals, and to the shooting skills and ability to endure hardship that Southern soldiers possessed in abundance. These are things that Southerners take pride in... while at the same time acknowleging that our ancestors were wrong to practice slavery, and that the societal and economic weakness that a slave-economy creates was one of the primary reasons the South lost the war.

I think you'll find that looking at the big picture, instead of just one single issue, changes the perspective considerably.
 
haymarket said:
Sorry apdst but you have not one shred of credibility when you talk about this era in American history. You are the same person who bragged that they could provide proof of eleven Confederate states pluys three border states having state wide referendums on secession. You showed us three and in one of those the vote led to a split of that same state.

Sorry, but you have no credibility on this issue and have proven that recently.
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Well, gee, HM, feel free to post information that proves me wrong.

I double dog dare yuz! :rofl
 
apdst said:
And the Confederacy did neither, which is why they technically didn't commit treason.
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ACtually they did both. Secession was not allowed in our constitution and therefore not legal.
 
Your Star said:
I just fail to see why I should honor someone/a failed government who fought for principals that I not only disagree with, but that I think are horrendous, even if they were my ancestors. I doubt anyone here would call the guys who flew planes into the world trade center, or the guys that are setting up IED's in Iraq, and Afghanistan hero's, but they are fighting for what they believe in too. What they believe in is more important then the fact that they believe in it and are willing to die for it.
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You disagree with protecting your family and your home from a hostile invader?
 
Fubar said:
I think an entertainment show, is not a good source to learn history.
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Neither is listening to a bunch of rednecks. And jon stewart is more accurate then some in the mainstream media.
 
Your Star said:
That wasn't my point, my point was there is no point calling someone a hero based solely on the fact that they believe in something, and that we must look into what they believe.
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I know it was not your point, but you made an untrue statement in supporting your point.

And yet you rally against a symbol of the South while knowing little about those who fought for it outside of the slavery issue?

I mean this is what it looks like.
 
99percenter said:
ACtually they did both. Secession was not allowed in our constitution and therefore not legal.
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Please point out where in the Constitution it says this? This is the 5th time I have asked you and you have yet to point it out.
 
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apdst said:
You disagree with protecting your family and your home from a hostile invader?
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The hostile invader was the confederate. The insurgency had to stopped by the federal govt.
 
99percenter said:
Reread my post.
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I did and that has no proof of anything...

"Secession was not allowed in our constitution and therefore not legal." - 99percenter

Now point out where?
 
Blackdog said:
I did and that has no proof of anything...

Secession was not allowed in our constitution and therefore not legal.
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Where does it say that states have a right to secede? By Seceding the whole document was violated. States cant take away a single right in the constitution let alone all of them.
 
99percenter said:
ACtually they did both. Secession was not allowed in our constitution and therefore not legal.
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Actually, prior to 1869, there was no prohibition of secession.

In 1804, there was a movement in New England to seceed and create a pro-English govnerment. No one was tried then.
 
99percenter said:
Where does it say that states have a right to secede? By Seceding the whole document was violated. States cant take away a single right in the constitution let alone all of them.
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So it does not? Thanks for clearing that up.
 
99percenter said:
The hostile invader was the confederate. The insurgency had to stopped by the federal govt.
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The South didn't invade the United States. Just a simple historical fact.

Nor was the South attempting to overthrow the United States government.
 
apdst said:
Actually, prior to 1869, there was no prohibition of secession.

In 1804, there was a movement in New England to seceed and create a pro-English govnerment. No one was tried then.
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No one seceded.
 
99percenter said:
Neither is listening to a bunch of rednecks. And jon stewart is more accurate then some in the mainstream media.
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Are Stewart's antics more accurate than documented historical FACT itself? :roll:
 
Your Star said:
I disagree with having slaves.
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99% of the soldiers and sailors in Confederate service didn't own slaves. Had it been just about slavery, there's no way the people in the South would have voted for secession, much less joined the military to fight such a bloody war.
 
Goshin said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think that Civil War was entirely about slavery, or that the average Southern soldier was fighting FOR slavery.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Slavery was ONE issue, and yes ONE causal factor, but it was far from being the only one. It is highly arguable if it was even a primary cause, except in the sense that it affected the economy of the South and drove some of the resistance to Federal taxes/tariffs/trade restrictions that were actually key causes of the war.


The average Southern soldier was far too poor to own any slaves. Slaves were expensive. If anything, poor Southerners should have resented the institution as it gave the rich a labor pool they didn't have to pay (just feed and house), which probably undercut wages for free labor. Historically, the average Southern soldier was fighting for his State, and for State's Rights vs the central government. To Billy Bob Infantryman, slavery was a side issue, if an issue at all.

The Southern army was outnumbered 4 to 1, had not one single cannon factory compared to the North which had many, possessed no Navy to speak of, and was generally very much the underdog. Yet they won most early campaigns thanks to the strategic and tactical skills of their Generals, and to the shooting skills and ability to endure hardship that Southern soldiers possessed in abundance. These are things that Southerners take pride in... while at the same time acknowleging that our ancestors were wrong to practice slavery, and that the societal and economic weakness that a slave-economy creates was one of the primary reasons the South lost the war.

I think you'll find that looking at the big picture, instead of just one single issue, changes the perspective considerably.
Click to expand...

Let me expand on this a little.

Gettysburg: Little Round Top. Southern infantry tried to take that hill, walking into a withering storm of enemy fire, advancing arm-in-arm as they took horrendous casualties.

Again and again, there are examples of Southern soldiers charging into withering enemy fire with incredible determination, and suffering horrendous losses.

Their battle cry was not "to maintain a luxurious standard of living for the rich plantation owners who keep slaves!" :lol: Uh, no. Men don't die for something like that.

State's rights, and the right of their home state to self-determination within its borders, was their cause, the reason they fought with such determination and willingly died in large numbers in these battles.

If you wish to argue that they were being decieved by their leadership, that's another issue we can debate.... but please do not besmirch their honor, in fighting for their home States, which they regarded with the reverence the modern American reserves for his nation.
 
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