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Does America Need A New 21st Century Immigration Policy?

Would you consider the new immigration standards suggested in the OP?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 69.2%
  • No

    Votes: 3 23.1%
  • Maybe, if it was less extreme

    Votes: 1 7.7%

  • Total voters
    13
Nazi Germany had a pretty impressive immigration policy which I'm sure a lot of "tough on the border" supporters would enjoy.

"Illegal" immigration is a strawman intended to keep the sheep around the world bickering amongst themselves so they don't realize the enormous fence they are willingly erecting around them. The problem with a fence is that it not only keeps people out but it also keeps people in.
We take in 141 legal immigrants an HOUR (1.2 million a YEAR) and that is somehow akin to Nazi Germany???
 
Nice attempt at diversion from the simple fact that you endorse paying non-Americans less and paying Americans to NOT work.

Except you are ignoring other simple facts.

1) The less American dollars those immigrants earn are worth more than what they can earn in their home country.

2) Those jobs don't pay at the education level of most Americans. Rather, most Americans need wages that will provide them with livable wages and will also pay off the debts they incur for their college or university education. The work that migrant workers do are not at this level.
 
60 Minutes did a story about a factory in Nebraska that 20 years ago was paying 20? dollars an hour for a floor job and the town was 97% white and now, 20 years later the same job commands a whopping 10 dollars an hour and the town is 80% or so latino. This is not unusual either. Play all the emotional games you like though... :)
The gist of Bod's post is directly related to the dangers of the current US immigration policies, as pointed out in the OP.

High standards are paramount to people with high standards. Profit is paramount to capitaism whose only goal is profit. These are productive qualities that should be maintained at all costs.

But when a large number of people with low standards enter into the equation, the standards for everyone are lowered due to the efficient nature of capitalism which drives all successful economies.

This is one of the main reasons why a new 21st century immigration policy is neccessary. To ensure the survival of western culture and economical success we must maintain the qualities that created it.

It is time we begin thinking with our heads instead of our hearts. Now, I want you men to start acting like men and get this country back on track!(hmmm, did my motivational speech sound sexist?)

(by the way Bodhisattva, your selfless sacrifice for humanity is much needed)
 
Nazi Germany had a pretty impressive immigration policy which I'm sure a lot of "tough on the border" supporters would enjoy.

"Illegal" immigration is a strawman intended to keep the sheep around the world bickering amongst themselves so they don't realize the enormous fence they are willingly erecting around them. The problem with a fence is that it not only keeps people out but it also keeps people in.
Suggesting that a policy is somehow evil because it was implimented by an unpopular ideology is no indication of it's neccessity or effectiveness.

The fact of the matter is that nazi germany's evil was rooted in it's socialist policies, which seeped into and corrupted all other policies.
 

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A study done in 2010 found that illegal immigration costs the US each year is $113 Billion. The largest costs are $52 billion to educate children of illegal immigrants, because the parents do not pay into the tax system so the state and local level absorbs those costs. The study also broke down the cost to each state and in the states with high numbers of illegals, the amount it costs the state is more than the states deficits. So you would think that if they got ride of those illegals, the money they would save would eliminate the state deficits. Additional costs include walfare, medical treatment, medicaid, food stamps and free school lunches, prison and court costs, and also the huge cost of trying to police the issue. They need to deport every last one of them, seal our boarders, and give huge fines to anyone who hires them or rents them an apartment. I have no issue with someone who wants to come here legally, learn the language, and pay taxes but I have a huge problem with people who come here illegally. They dont pay taxes and a large percentage of them are bringing drugs with them and breaking the law.
 
Gosh, when I first saw the thread title, I thought.. huh? um, you can't keep time from happening. Actually, neither party has developed a policy for effectively dealing with immigration. They were both too leary of offending the huge Latino vote in the past.

Besides, isn't the problem the illegals, not those who legally apply for immigration? Won't big fines for the companies who employ illegals get rid of a lot of the problem?
Heavens forbid, the conservatives would never allow this....fining themselves....
Yes, we do need a far better immigration policy for the 20th century...the 21st would be too great a leap forward...
I do believe that we can learn a lot from the more advanced nations - such as New Zealand....or Germany.
I, for one, am not convinced that a problem even exists..
I do not trust our media.
 
A study done in 2010 found that illegal immigration costs the US each year is $113 Billion. The largest costs are $52 billion to educate children of illegal immigrants, because the parents do not pay into the tax system so the state and local level absorbs those costs. The study also broke down the cost to each state and in the states with high numbers of illegals, the amount it costs the state is more than the states deficits. So you would think that if they got ride of those illegals, the money they would save would eliminate the state deficits. Additional costs include walfare, medical treatment, medicaid, food stamps and free school lunches, prison and court costs, and also the huge cost of trying to police the issue. They need to deport every last one of them, seal our boarders, and give huge fines to anyone who hires them or rents them an apartment. I have no issue with someone who wants to come here legally, learn the language, and pay taxes but I have a huge problem with people who come here illegally. They dont pay taxes and a large percentage of them are bringing drugs with them and breaking the law.
And, who is the party behind this "survey" ?
Who funded it ?
And while being confronted with such hatred and fear, while do they continue to come ??
 
VanceMack said:
We take in 141 legal immigrants an HOUR (1.2 million a YEAR) and that is somehow akin to Nazi Germany???

Empirica said:
Suggesting that a policy is somehow evil because it was implimented by an unpopular ideology is no indication of it's neccessity or effectiveness.

I neither suggested current immigration policy is evil nor akin to Nazi Germany. However, the reactionary attacks on so-called “illegal” immigrants are both eerily reminiscent of Nazi Germany and morally reprehensible. Fundamentally, what is the difference between forcing a person to relocate versus prohibiting them from relocating?

The issue is not that immigrants move into this country “illegally” as so many commonly suggest. The real issue is as Empirica pointed out, “when a large number of people with low standards enter into the equation, the standards for everyone are lowered due to the efficient nature of capitalism which drives all successful economies.” I will clarify that “low standards” simply means lower wages. There are certainly people who are simply hostile to immigrants and there are many people who are ignorant of economics and are still under the spell of mercantilism, but the truth is that people move to where they are able to attain a better life. This is why most people are hostile to “illegal” immigration more than any other. They just want to keep their inflated wages. Essentially the U.S. government is attempting to act as a national union.
 
Suggesting that a policy is somehow evil because it was implimented by an unpopular ideology is no indication of it's neccessity or effectiveness.

The fact of the matter is that nazi germany's evil was rooted in it's socialist policies, which seeped into and corrupted all other policies.

Actually, Nazi Germany's evil was rooted in its fascist policies, but it was actually their nationalist policies that seeped into and corrupted all other policies.
 
Actually, Nazi Germany's evil was rooted in its fascist policies, but it was actually their nationalist policies that seeped into and corrupted all other policies.

I think I would tentatively agree with that statement. Their fanatical nationalism was the driving factor behind Hitler's ability to become fuhrer and subsequently rally a large percentage of the people into supporting his campaign for domination. I see many parallels between the nationalism in Germany and the United States. Heck, today is the perfect day to see the blind nationalism as so many people ignorantly "thank" any person who happens to be a veteran regardless of their actual actions.
 
I think I would tentatively agree with that statement. Their fanatical nationalism was the driving factor behind Hitler's ability to become fuhrer and subsequently rally a large percentage of the people into supporting his campaign for domination. I see many parallels between the nationalism in Germany and the United States. Heck, today is the perfect day to see the blind nationalism as so many people ignorantly "thank" any person who happens to be a veteran regardless of their actual actions.

Actually, I don't think that nationalism is in effect here in the U.S. to that degree.

The nationalism of Nazi Germany was to create what they called a "lebensraum" for Germans. That is Nazi Germany wanted to conquer lands, displace the peoples there, and use it as a way for Germans to prosper.

The nationalism of the United States is different. Actually, I think it's much more corporate. We don't try to spread our government. Rather, we try to spread our culture. And we do so in advertisements on the products and services we get them to buy.
 
Wikipedia: A liberal's most trusted source of information...

I notice you used the word "conservative" to describe the majority of appointees. Anyone with any kind of political awareness knows that's bull****, as "Republicans" and "Conservatives" have practically become strangers over the years. Please use proper terminology.
 
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Gotcha. So...because they are desperate we can justify paying those low wages.

If both parties agree to it, the agreement is legitimate. Poverty is an issue, but we won't solve by making it harder to get into this country.
 
Emotional games? Im stating straight up reality. That cheap brown labor (hey...BTW...10$ an hour...thats MORE than minimum wage, right) and this mindset that we are justified in paying slave labor to do the job no AMERICAN would deign themselves to do is part of the problem

How can they be jobs that no American would do when they were jobs that Americans did that Mexicans took over? That makes no sense and I also didn't mean to be rude with my "emotional games" comment. Sorry.
 
Wikipedia: A liberal's most trusted source of information...

I notice you used the word "conservative" to describe the majority of appointees. Anyone with any kind of political awareness knows that's bull****, as "Republicans" and "Conservatives" have practically become strangers over the years. Please use proper terminology.
How right you are Sunbelt.

Both conservatives and libertarians have had very little representation in any of the three branches of government for quite some time.

It seems that those of us who have been paying attention expend alot of our time and energy explaining the obvious to those who haven't.

(do you ever feel like you're trying to explain quantum physics to a third grader?)
 
I neither suggested current immigration policy is evil nor akin to Nazi Germany. However, the reactionary attacks on so-called “illegal” immigrants are both eerily reminiscent of Nazi Germany and morally reprehensible. Fundamentally, what is the difference between forcing a person to relocate versus prohibiting them from relocating?

The issue is not that immigrants move into this country “illegally” as so many commonly suggest. The real issue is as Empirica pointed out, “when a large number of people with low standards enter into the equation, the standards for everyone are lowered due to the efficient nature of capitalism which drives all successful economies.” I will clarify that “low standards” simply means lower wages. There are certainly people who are simply hostile to immigrants and there are many people who are ignorant of economics and are still under the spell of mercantilism, but the truth is that people move to where they are able to attain a better life. This is why most people are hostile to “illegal” immigration more than any other. They just want to keep their inflated wages. Essentially the U.S. government is attempting to act as a national union.
I am totally confused???...Please enlighten me TNAR???

Exactly how do you equate demanding that the federal government enforce US immigration laws to "attacks" on illegal aliens?
 
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There is nothing wrong with our current good immigration policy.

It simply needs to be enforced.

I am opposed to a "best and brightest" litmus test, and I find the current "keep the criminals out" litmus test satisfactory.

I have read that there are currently around 20 million illegal immigrants in America from every race and from all over the world.

They need to be deported.

If we did the right thing by our current laws that would go a long way in aiding a return of prosperity to America.
 
Except you are ignoring other simple facts.

1) The less American dollars those immigrants earn are worth more than what they can earn in their home country.

2) Those jobs don't pay at the education level of most Americans. Rather, most Americans need wages that will provide them with livable wages and will also pay off the debts they incur for their college or university education. The work that migrant workers do are not at this level.
It's obvious that you've been listening to those politians who will say anything to franchise 12+ million new voters who are easily bought with taxpayer dollars.

Besides farming, the illegal aliens work in all the construction trades and many factories that no longer pay wages that most americans can survive on and the restaraunts and yard maintanance jobs that young americans and teenagers once filled part time and summers.

The fact is, there are very few jobs they are not doing, simply because political correctness has legitimized their criminal status.(undocumented workers...ha-ha, yea right)
 
America currently faces a jobs crisis that is most brought on by off-shoring of American jobs to wage-slavers abroad and in-sourcing wage-slavers with work visas.

Obviously, international corporate consortiums are at fault.

In addition to enforcing our good immigration laws, we also need to take appropriate action to bring back off-shored and in-sourced jobs.

This can be accomplished with major tax penalties to off-shorers and in-sourcers, tax breaks for hiring Americans and legal immigrants, and major tax incentives for American-soil start-up companies replacing off-shored divisions.

Another good tool in combination is the "dreaded" tariff.

American based companies that operate internationally need to be held to the good behavior ethic "if you make it abroad, you sell it abroad" -- that's always been a good ethical rule for us.

The problems we suffer today began during the Reagan administration's corporate socialist movement and their mantra of "what's good for corporate America is good for Americans". Clearly that was a false belief.

I know that President Obama's last state of the union address included much about making America competitive in the global economy by creating in our own people "the best and the brightest" competitors we can be.

But this is absolute foolishness -- we can't compete with wage-slave labor abroad no matter how good and bright we are.

Thus I don't see the need or the value of including a "best and brightest and healthiest" policy in our immigration laws.

I'm concerned about regular Americans being punished for being regular Americans if we advocate becoming a land of neurotically competitive Ferengi.

And that kind of foolish, futile behavior forced upon our school children will likely make many of them physically ill.

History has shown that we're good enough as we are, and that our problems have usually been internally caused by bad decisions made by Washington to serve the small special interests with all the money.
 
America currently faces a jobs crisis that is most brought on by off-shoring of American jobs to wage-slavers abroad and in-sourcing wage-slavers with work visas.

Obviously, international corporate consortiums are at fault.

In addition to enforcing our good immigration laws, we also need to take appropriate action to bring back off-shored and in-sourced jobs.

This can be accomplished with major tax penalties to off-shorers and in-sourcers, tax breaks for hiring Americans and legal immigrants, and major tax incentives for American-soil start-up companies replacing off-shored divisions.

Another good tool in combination is the "dreaded" tariff.

American based companies that operate internationally need to be held to the good behavior ethic "if you make it abroad, you sell it abroad" -- that's always been a good ethical rule for us.

The problems we suffer today began during the Reagan administration's corporate socialist movement and their mantra of "what's good for corporate America is good for Americans". Clearly that was a false belief.

I know that President Obama's last state of the union address included much about making America competitive in the global economy by creating in our own people "the best and the brightest" competitors we can be.

But this is absolute foolishness -- we can't compete with wage-slave labor abroad no matter how good and bright we are.

Thus I don't see the need or the value of including a "best and brightest and healthiest" policy in our immigration laws.

I'm concerned about regular Americans being punished for being regular Americans if we advocate becoming a land of neurotically competitive Ferengi.

And that kind of foolish, futile behavior forced upon our school children will likely make many of them physically ill.
We cant control wages abroad and should focus our efforts on keeping standards high here at home by refusing citizenship to those who drag them down.

The reason for exporting american jobs is directly related to the ever increasing US taxes and regulations that make it impossible for American Industry to be competitive in a global economy. Sink or swim. They have been given no other option.

Corporations are not the problem. Government is the problem and the more it grows the bigger the problem gets. The corporations could be our saviors if government would get out of their way and let them do what they do best. Create wealth and jobs.

The left will tell you to ignore and deny the history of what made America the wealtiest most powerful nation on earth while promoting class warfare by telling you the rich are evil and greedy. Tactics taken directly from the writings of Karl Marx.

Capitalism is your friend...Government is your enemy.

History has shown that we're good enough as we are, and that our problems have usually been internally caused by bad decisions made by Washington to serve the small special interests with all the money.
Im inclined to agree with this one for the most part.
 
Empirica said:
Exactly how do you equate demanding that the federal government enforce US immigration laws to "attacks" on illegal aliens?

You are on the right track later in this thread…

Empirica said:
The reason for exporting american jobs is directly related to the ever increasing US taxes and regulations that make it impossible for American Industry to be competitive in a global economy.

You have just implied that the price of production has, in essence, bankrupted the “America Corporation” through taxes and regulations. In order to avoid total closure, the company (the U.S.) has to downsize such things as its labor force. The goods are still in demand and they still need to be produced, they just need to be produced more cheaply. One of the biggest costs of production for many goods is labor. So, as you correctly said, businesses will outsource in order to reduce the overhead.

Many other jobs cannot be relocated due to geographical specific features (such as farming and construction). These goods still need to be provided at a low rate so the businesses will still make an effort to reduce labor costs. By and large, those who command the lowest wage rates are unskilled laborers with no experience and immigrants with lower standards of living.

So, a company can either hire kids right out of high school with no experience and hope they will “cut the mustard” or they can hire immigrants who likely have many years of experience (and likely a better work ethic than the high school kids). What would you have them do?

Empirica said:
Government is the problem ... The corporations could be our saviors if government would get out of their way and let them do what they do best.

I will assume that you answered my previous question with something along the lines of letting the businesses choose whoever would allow them to create the most wealth. However, these businesses will only be allowed to choose from certain government approved immigrants and not simply any immigrant who possesses the necessary skills and desire to perform the job. The question I have for you, then, is why should the government be relied upon for efficient allocation of labor when you don’t think it wise to do so for other commodities? There is no essential economic difference between labor and capital.

To get back to your original question then…

Empirica said:
Exactly how do you equate demanding that the federal government enforce US immigration laws to "attacks" on illegal aliens?

The concept of “illegal” immigration reduces the free movement of labor and only serves to increase costs to those within the arbitrary political confines. I believe that everyone has the natural right to freedom of movement and contract. Immigration law defies this right.
 
Problem is America needs immigrants because the current generation of Americans want everything handed to them on a plate! Company I work for comes under a lot heavy criticism because they have a lot of immigrants. In my branch there was a Russian, couple of Thai's and myself (British) and we outnumbered Americans, this isn't because we were able to work for less for more hours ( we all start on same pay) its because we were all willing to work from the bottom. When I took the job I had just got my green card and it wasn't full time hours which of course meant no health care etc. They had been looking for people for 3 months before I took the job because Americans out of college didn't want the job, they wanted full time with all the trimmings. I took the job and also picked up a 2nd job ( bar work) worked very hard for 6 months and then I got promoted which meant full time hours and the healthcare, then 6 months later I got promoted again and now 2 years later I earn a very nice wage in the marketing department.
I moved here because my wife wanted to be closer to her sick father, no one handed me anything, I paid the couple of grand for the green card and then I worked my butt off and im doing pretty well now. Most of my American friends are still working in bars doing masters now and are still convinced that after they have a masters they will get that dream job handed to them...time to wake up!
 
We cant control wages abroad and should focus our efforts on keeping standards high here at home by refusing citizenship to those who drag them down.
We already refuse citizenship to criminal elements.

Outside of that, who are these legal immigrants that are dragging down standards here at home?

Also, how are they dragging standards down?

Please answer those questions for me.


The reason for exporting american jobs is directly related to the ever increasing US taxes and regulations that make it impossible for American Industry to be competitive in a global economy. Sink or swim. They have been given no other option.
An American worker being paid $12.00/hour vs. a worker in a third world country being paid $.05/hour.

That's the reason our jobs have been off-shored.

Taxation issues are very minor compared to the wage-slave issue.

If the two wages were equal, companies would stay here, as the tax issue is offset by overseas costs, tariffs, pay-offs to corrupt governments, and language barrier challenges.

The reason we have so much off-shoring is because one company in a given industry started it, considerably lowered the resulting consumer price, and then the remaining competitors in that industry had to follow suit or lose the price war.

Off-shoring has ramped up in recent years because international corporations have improved their ability to source wage-slaves.


Corporations are not the problem. Government is the problem
You say that repeatedly, thus it's no wonder I hear the typical fiscal conservative dualism .. shared also by most libertarians: corporations are angels .. the government is the devil.

Liberals often see it vice versa.

I prefer to look closely at the facts apart from pre-conceived ideology, determine the problem, and create solutions.

Sometimes I find that corporations are wrong and need to change and sometimes I find that government is wrong and needs to change and sometimes both.

In this particular situation, international corporate consortiums need to be reigned in, management and unions need to do a better job at coming to agreements, and government politicians must see to it that that happens instead of off-shoring and in-sourcing wage-slaves.


and the more it grows the bigger the problem gets.
The size of government is not the issue with government.

The substance of government is.


The corporations could be our saviors if government would get out of their way and let them do what they do best. Create wealth and jobs.
Corporations will never be our saviors.

There is no constitutional mandate for corporations to promote the general welfare and provide for the common defense.

The goal of corporations is to turn the biggest profit they can, and corporations see workers as a cost that drains profits.

Corporations, being the animal that they are, will always seek out the cheapest production costs available.

That's the foundational reason they are presently robbing out-sourced Peter to pay peanuts to Pablo.

Purely free enterprise without effective government controls is the ultimate in cold economic war, and in this war the owners create wealth for themselves and jobs at the cheapest global rate they can find.

It's not a good thing for the great majority of Americans.


The left will tell you to ignore and deny the history of what made America the wealtiest most powerful nation on earth while promoting class warfare by telling you the rich are evil and greedy. Tactics taken directly from the writings of Karl Marx.
And, they'd be wrong.

But the right will tell you to ignore and deny the history of what made the American standard of living for all the most cherished standard of living on earth while promoting class warfare by telling you that workers are lazy and freeloaders. Tactics taken directly from the writings of Ronald Reagan and other corporate panderers.

And they're wrong, too.


Capitalism is your friend...Government is your enemy.
Neither is true .. and neither is the opposite true as well.

It's times like this I feel so glad I don't suffer from pre-conceived ideology -- I think so much clearer as a result.


Im inclined to agree with this one for the most part.
Yes, but you are inclined to so agree because you've filtered it through your ideology, thus imagining I just put down "the big bad government" when I didn't.

The problem is that the corporate socialism movement started under Reagan has been perpetuated by Washington politicians left and right bought and paid for by corporate interests .. to this day.

It's not about our government; it's about the wingnuts left and right we've been forced to elect to run our government.

All of our problems can be traced to a combination of corporations and unions behaving badly and politicians not intervening the moment the first wave of jobs in an industry were about to be out-sourced.
 
Ontologuy said:
Outside of that, who are these legal immigrants that are dragging down standards here at home? Also, how are they dragging standards down?

If domestic laborers demand $20/hr and foreign laborers only demand $5/hr the predominant wage will tend to decrease to the marginal rate, ceteris paribus. I don’t have to tell you that lower wage rates result in lower standards of living without a subsequent reduction in general prices. And, since the Federal Reserve has made “combating deflation” one of its highest priorities, a reduction in wage rates would result in a reduction in the general standard of living.

Ontologuy said:
Taxation issues are very minor compared to the wage-slave issue.

I’m pretty sure I already discussed this with you… No bother.

A wage of $.05/hr in most nations would be considered a poor wage but you are not being genuine with your comparison. A wage of $.50/hr, on the other hand, would be a very good wage in quite a few nations. Wages are relative to the standard of living and general price level.

Ontologuy said:
Sometimes I find that corporations are wrong and need to change and sometimes I find that government is wrong and needs to change and sometimes both.

I would agree with this statement for the most part. However, the method used for the desired change is what separates the freedom loving person from the statist. What methodology would you support?

Ontologuy said:
The size of government is not the issue with government. The substance of government is.

Does this hold true for corporations as well?

Ontologuy said:
There is no constitutional mandate for corporations to promote the general welfare and provide for the common defense.

Ah, but there is a constitutional restriction from abridging the freedoms of speech and press, an infringement upon the bearing of arms, the right to be secure in one’s home, the right to trial, and numerous other protections but we see how well it has held back our government.

You are very quick to point out the “greed” of corporations but completely ignore the “greed” of every single consumer (i.e. individual). Everyone is greedy by nature. Consumers demand the lowest prices for the highest quality goods and businesses demand the lowest wages for the highest labor output. There is no difference!

This “greed” you so much detest is the sole concept responsible for the high standard of living experienced throughout the world. Left to its own, the “greed” of corporations would extend to the poorest regions of the world and eventually raise their standards of living to the level experienced by the rest of the world.

Ontologuy said:
It's not a good thing for the great majority of Americans.

America is an ignorant fool convinced of the soundness of 17th century mercantilism. The reign of America as an economic giant is quickly nearing its end thanks to asinine government policies.

Ontologuy said:
It's times like this I feel so glad I don't suffer from pre-conceived ideology -- I think so much clearer as a result.

Your discussion begs otherwise.

Ontologuy said:
It's not about our government; it's about the wingnuts left and right we've been forced to elect to run our government.

The wingnut right and left are logical derivations of the republican form of government we have.
 
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