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Higher Education?

Is College worth it?

  • Yes higher education is a must!

    Votes: 10 35.7%

  • No most people got to college to party or put off real work!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Its a great life experience

    Votes: 2 7.1%

  • Schools should be focusing a lot more on apprenticeships rather than sending everyone to college

    Votes: 16 57.1%
  • Total voters
    28
Fiddytree said:
I think for many people, it is stunningly true: they are being unnecessarily shifted to the traditional university rather than direct training to be professionals that we rely on everyday, that can make significant salaries.

But, from the area of society I am from, the opposite was true, or worse. For many students in special education or those covered in emotional disturbance, the shift was always on the lowest tier of jobs and if you were lucky, educate them to be those professionals we rely on that can make them a great living. Hardly any dialogue whatsoever is to discuss the traditional university or graduate study for these students. For many of these students, their disability or emotional problems would not prevent them from marching in that direction, but the expectations are or were so low, that the lowest tier of jobs was what was mostly focused in on. It was like the best one (a special education educator) could hope for was if they could somehow make it through any ordinary job interview or maybe be able to balance one's checkbook (or similar education in a post-check society). The push simply isn't there for those students who could benefit from a more focused academic setting.[/QUOTE]Emphasis is mine.

I have a feeling that I know what you are going to do after you graduate. Someone told me long ago: "Find a niche and fill it." It sounds like you've found your niche. Good on you.

This brings up a point not yet mentioned, so I'll give it the 'ol college try.

Kids are much more sure of what they want to be when they grow up at age eight than they are at age 18. Undeclared major is OK for a year or two, but the sooner a person can focus on the outcome the better off they will be. Picking a path to follow, or lead, through a majority of your adult years is a monumental task for most young adults. Those who can make a clear decision will generally outshine their counterparts.
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I'd like to see a strong apprenticeship program developed in the US, similar to the one in Germany. I know there are technical schools and some company apprenticeships, but I don't know of a strong system that coordinates with high schools to develop a curriculum that readies them for an apprenticeship.
 
American said:
I'd like to see a strong apprenticeship program developed in the US, similar to the one in Germany. I know there are technical schools and some company apprenticeships, but I don't know of a strong system that coordinates with high schools to develop a curriculum that readies them for an apprenticeship.
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I'd like that too.

I'd also like businesses to provide scholarship programs so they can promote from within and garner better employee loyalty. Basically the corporate version of a "mustang officer".
 
Funny my 10 y/o ask me this question some time ago. And I ending up giving him three options 1. Go college, 2. join the military. 3. or go to trade school, and boy we need a plumber in the family :)
 
Sidgaf said:
Funny my 10 y/o ask me this question some time ago. And I ending up giving him three options 1. Go college, 2. join the military. 3. or go to trade school, and boy we need a plumber in the family :)
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If I did it all over again, I would have skipped the military (though it did give me lots of useful experience and training I've used in life) and would have done the trade school route. The plumber I have and who has since become a friend of mine does insanely well for himself. He's self employed, makes very very good money and now picks and chooses what jobs he personally wants to get involved with. He hires and trains other plumbers to work for him and he treats them very well. Full benefits, dental, healthcare...and he's always busy.
 
higher education and continuous lifelong learning are as essential to the brain as exercise is for the body. neglect either, and overall health, success, and quality of life will diminish.

in my opinion, too many people look at college simply as job training. it is that, but it's also a lot more.

the analogy i like to use is that a football player is never going to do a bench press or a curl during the game. but if he hasn't done weight training, his performance will suffer significantly. education is a very similar concept.
 
Helix said:
higher education and continuous lifelong learning are as essential to the brain as exercise is for the body. neglect either, and overall health, success, and quality of life will diminish.

in my opinion, too many people look at college simply as job training. it is that, but it's also a lot more.

the analogy i like to use is that a football player is never going to do a bench press or a curl during the game. but if he hasn't done weight training, his performance will suffer significantly. education is a very similar concept.
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On the other hand, it could be like a guy doing bench presses and curls to get on the team, only to find he didn't make the cut, and the only openings there are is the Math Club.

Oops.
 
samsmart said:
On the other hand, it could be like a guy doing bench presses and curls to get on the team, only to find he didn't make the cut, and the only openings there are is the Math Club.

Oops.
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even in this case, he will still benefit from weightlifting in many other parts of his life.

and as a former football player, i'd have to say that math club wins hands down.
 
A lot of material learned through university can be learned on the job, with much better results and at a fraction of the cost.
To me, in a lot of cases, it's a waste of time and resources, but that is how the world currently works.
 
Its only worth it if we wish the US to be competitive in the future world market. I would imagine in years past it was said, is secondary education worth it?

That being said there is nothing wrong with someone choosing a trade school as an alternative to college, if it is in a field that will be in demand in this country in the future.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
A lot of material learned through university can be learned on the job, with much better results and at a fraction of the cost.
To me, in a lot of cases, it's a waste of time and resources, but that is how the world currently works.
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My daughter was working in her field before while she getting her BS. After several years working she returned to school for her masters and she just got it. Her education could not be duplicated at work, not even close, for her current position. My college & university education in the 60’s and 70’s allowed me to differentiate myself from my peers and get promotions, e.g. I achieved and deserved the title Architect in the computer field. I was in the USAF from 68 to 72 and attended 46 weeks and then 20 weeks more of technical training, but I assisted in teaching the classes many times because the instructors didn’t really understand the subject from a higher level. As a result my college education I could fix USAF problems in the field that no one else could, no one else had the appropriate higher level education. So our experience indicates that you are incorrect.
 
OhIsee.Then said:
My daughter was working in her field before while she getting her BS. After several years working she returned to school for her masters and she just got it. Her education could not be duplicated at work, not even close, for her current position. My college & university education in the 60’s and 70’s allowed me to differentiate myself from my peers and get promotions, e.g. I achieved and deserved the title Architect in the computer field. I was in the USAF from 68 to 72 and attended 46 weeks and then 20 weeks more of technical training, but I assisted in teaching the classes many times because the instructors didn’t really understand the subject from a higher level. As a result my college education I could fix USAF problems in the field that no one else could, no one else had the appropriate higher level education. So our experience indicates that you are incorrect.[/SIZE]
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Your experience does not make it untrue.
The fact is the the education system is filled with lots of time wasters and doesn't always get to the meat of the material needed to complete a task.

If your daughter's education could not be duplicated at work, then it may well have been, useless the material/theory/practice was entirely new to the field of work, but even then that doesn't mean that it could of only been obtained through an educational institution.

If your instructors didn't understand material, as well as you did, what was the value of that education?
 
Missing far too much on that poll to make it good to respond to the poll itself.

As to college/university, it all depends on what you plan to do. It's not always a good idea, and it's certainly not always a good idea to spend a lot up front on it.

For children really good early education through high school IMO would take priority over university. People go back to college all their life. You can't ever replace that early childhood learning.
 
For certain credentialed professions, such as being a lawyer, teacher, engineer, doctor, etc yes. Especially in jobs with liability concerns where formal credentials are taken into account for legal questions.
For more trade type jobs, such as IT, accounting, hair cutting, plumbing, etc probably not, but it certainly helps.
Management, in my opinion No. That is about people skills and being organized mainly, which are character traits.
For unskilled labor, not at all.

My job certainly does not require a college degree, even though I put it on there the last time I wrote my job description. I have one though, but I cannot say I use it much. Most of what I know is self taught. Its just a hoop that society makes us jump through. However, even though its a hoop, its a real barrier for a lot of people.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Your experience does not make it untrue.
The fact is the the education system is filled with lots of time wasters and doesn't always get to the meat of the material needed to complete a task.

If your daughter's education could not be duplicated at work, then it may well have been, useless the material/theory/practice was entirely new to the field of work, but even then that doesn't mean that it could of only been obtained through an educational institution.

If your instructors didn't understand material, as well as you did, what was the value of that education?
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Sorry I wasn’t clear enough. Since I worked in teams I got to know who was knowledgeable, i.e. educated by some process that had some breadth and depth, and who was just trained to do the job, i.e. in a tech school or on the job. I commented on myself and my daughter as examples where training to do what is necessary on the job is not available on the job. The people that are trained on the job or for a specific job function generally do not get the education that supports exception conditions or unexpected changes in the job.
Let me address one misconception you have where I wasn’t very clear. The teachers for the 66 weeks of USAF technical schools I went to had training on how to conduct classes, i.e. be a teacher and the material in the classes they taught. What I’m saying is that the value of the training was very low because they were trained only for the specific task (class) they were responsible for (taught). They did not understand the anything but the class material. So I’ll give you one of many examples of what happened on the job. This is in a big 1960’s redundant computer system in in its own large block house. One computer is failing, but all diagnostics pass. Boards are swapped out and back in wholesale. Eventually, more than 24 hours, that bad board is found and the computer is fixed. The diag didn’t find it, oh well. Because of my education I’m the only one that gets the diag code out and finds the incorrect instruction in the diag that prevented the detection of the failure and 31 other boards just like it. Then we could load the test, change one memory location to the proper branch instruction and actually find a bad board in the future. I took one programing class at a university before ending up in the USAF and it worked many times even though the language was not the same the concepts were.
 
A Tale Of Two Sons

Son #1:
Since he was a child, he has been fascinated with all things military. When he was ten, I took him and his brother to a local air show. We visited a display of WWII equipment. He astounded the people at the display by spouting off specs about various weapons from both sides. He even discussed the usefulness of the various weapons in relation to others. He participated in Army JROTC all four years of high school and did quite well in terms of awards and promotions. There is only one thing preventing him from a career in the military: he is deaf in one ear. While his academic grades were in the A and B realm, he had to work his ass off to get them...math was his nemesis. He's good with his hands and is able to understand systems...be it mechanical or electrical. He has had an upper level gaming computer since he was 16 and has never bought a computer from a store or paid anyone to rebuild, upgrade or repair his. He's now 21 and he has never considered college. He has a job and is considering what he wants to do with his life.

Son #2:
Since he was introduced to the clarinet in the fourth grade, he has always known that music will be a major part of his life. He is one of those people who find academics...especially math and science...very easy to understand. He's achieved straight A's without having to break a sweat. He briefly considered a career in the physical sciences, but his love of music has trumped that. He also found, during high school, that he has a knack...and an enjoyment...in helping others become better musicians. For him, secondary education and beyond has always been a given. For him to proceed in his field it is a requirement. He's 18 and a Freshman in college this year.


The message to be taken from my tale is that it depends on the person whether secondary education is a good thing or not. It is more important to find your passion and do whatever is necessary to make it a part of your life. It is also more important to develop useful character traits such as determination, thoughtfulness and work ethic. Both of my sons would lesser young men without these traits.


btw, I didn't respond to the poll because there wasn't an option to match my opinion.
 
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to OP:

You don't exactly need to go to college. As long as you have the intelligence of what you are trying to accomplish and have a drive to accomplish it, if not then you need to go to college.

Successful people who never finished school: The College Dropouts Hall of Fame: Famous college dropouts, successful college dropouts, and rich college dropouts

I love their motto:
I'm a firm believer that most college students would be better off dropping out of school and investing the money they now spend on college. Then take the four years they would have spent on college and travel, work, play, and spend time with smart people talking about important things. It would be your choice on what's important, not a professor, not a dean, not a faculty committee.
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5 Reason's to skip college By Forbes: Five Reasons To Skip College - Forbes.com

I liked number 3:

3. In fact, you could probably make more money if you invested your tuition.
Put $160,000--the approximate cost of a Harvard education--into municipal bonds that pay a conservative 5%, and you'll have saved more than $500,000 in 30 years. That's far more than the average college grad will accumulate in the same amount of time.
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I've seen creative genius work in college grads, and in high school grads. It all depends on what your idea is, if you feel you need further training or not (and if so what kind), and how you want to live your life. Higher education is worth it if it harmonizes with your plans, but in my college days I saw too many people who were there because they thought a degree would be their silver platter to financial success.

Unless a high school graduate is dead set on what they want to do and it seems to be calling to them, I think it's better to take time off between high school and university to get life experience. With the price of college being what it is, you can afford to do some travelling without paying as much money, or do volunteer work - anything to help you grow experientially. I consider all of those things "higher education", not just college.

Higher education is a philosophy of living. It's steeping yourself in deeper learning of some kind; but that can take on many forms. If it's not something you really feel called to do, then don't engage with it or you'll just feel bored.
 
FluffyNinja said:
Makes sense. But, obviously this path is what you find rewarding (whether financially, intellectually, emotionally, etc.) I try to tell my students that it is much more important to find your "niche" and to make yourself "marketable" in order to fill that place. It seems that we've attached "independent wealth" indiscriminantly to the idea of "success" in our society. There are many, many great paying jobs that don't require a higher degree, but rather, require specialized skills, training, and/or work experience. My Dad is a classic example. He NEVER attended a college. He was trained as an electrician in the US Navy. Upon leaving the military at age 26, he began working as a commercial electrician's apprentice where he broadened his skills in the trade and gained valuable work experence. By age 36 he started his own Electrical Service Company. By age 40, he was making over $300,000 a year and had a crew of 6 electricians working under him. By age 45 he'd had at least one year where he'd cleared half-a-million, and was routinely bidding, $10 million to $50 million construction projects. By age 50 he'd worked all over the world, from helping to design and wire water purification plants in Egypt to rennovating power and communication grids in Diego Garcia and South Korea.

He loved his work. He was good at it. He made some pretty good money doing it. He accomplished a great deal in his field, gained a great deal of experience and respect and......................did it all without a college degree. Funny thing is.......come hail or high water, he was bound and determined that I, his oldest son, would get a college degree. In retrospect, I suppose I'm glad he pushed me to do it.
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In college I learned a bunch of useful stuff that never directly related to ‘turning the wrench at work’. But your story about your father starting his ‘electrician’ business is too close to an actual event of mine. Our extended family had an electrician wiring a basement improvement. I was helping a bit; I’m an engineer not an electrician. He was wiring two circuits, to outlets, with a single common to a split point, but he wasn’t using a ganged circuit breaker, and circuits were on the same side of the 220. Therefore the common easily could be overloaded by double. I explained and drew pictures to show him the error was making. He claimed that he was doing it correctly which I took to indicate that he had made this error many times. He finally called the company owner and after a bit they realized that it was an ‘error’. I helped him pull a second common. So in this case it was a college educated engineer that was never trained in house wiring correcting the OJT electrician that had passed the testes required in IL. It was the indepth understanding of a college education that prevented a common error by a trained ellectrician.
 
Is it "worth it"? Apparently you are referring to money. It depends on the degree. With the degree it then depends on effort, timing and luck. A masters opens many more doors and depending on the degree usually promises less grunt work and more money. On the other hand if you have a passion for mastering a subject and learning, if you wish to add a depth of richness to your life experience, a college degree and graduate school are worth every minute and dollar.
 
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Higgins86 said:
I wanted to get your thoughts on how important you think going to University is?
My wife is about to finish her masters and is hopefully going to get a half decent job too reward her hard work, her coming to a finish as got me thinking should I go and get my degree? I got good grades at school but decided to join the army instead of going to uni, I used my experience in the Army and my good school grades to land myself a pretty decent job. However I feel a lot of pressure to go and get my degree because most of my freinds and peers have theirs and in todays society it is almost expected that you have a degree. I look at a lot of my freinds who have degrees and I would say 70% of them have done nothing with them and it makes me wonder " why all this expectation"?
Is the fact we are almsot forcing out kids to go to college playing a big factor in our ineffective workforce and is it costing us thousands of blue collar jobs? Obviously for some professions you need the degree doctor etc, but are the rest of us going to college for all the wrong reasons?
Your thoughts?
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my oldest son dropped out of college, got a tech certificate to work on HVAC systems. he is making $40/hr
 
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