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Which party is more responsible for the state economy?

Which party is more responsible for the state of the economy?

  • The Republican Party

    Votes: 33 63.5%
  • The Democratic Party

    Votes: 19 36.5%

  • Total voters
    52
Really the new deal is responsible for excess bank leverage?

Countries like Canada have higher tax rates and higher social spending yet did not have the banking system collapse of the US

the New Deal got the Government into the business of directly or indirectly subsidizing home ownership. surprise, when you artificially alter incentive structures, you can create bubbles.
 
See, that's interesting - because I find it dishonest how you will try to bring in strawmen or irrelevant data and insist that therefore all evidence arrayed against you is moot.

Except that you define such data as anything that does not support your position. You know for a fact that the economy is not just fiscal policy. But you keep citing a study that explicitly states that all other data is ignored. That is stupid and you know it. But you refuse to own up to it. Hence why you are dishonest. You know better but you refuse to do so.

I will usually praise advancement - people who are working, being productive and living better lives are situated superior to those who are living as drains on their fellow man, doing little to nothing, and experiencing a lower standard of living.

But here you are praising going nowhere. Therefore you are a liar.

funny how you are so quick to give it credit for Canadian economic success, and so quick to insist that we shouldn't try to experience any of that economic growth ourselves.

Come again? I didn't say we shouldn't do it at all. Which again makes you a liar. I said we should wait until we can get the most bang for the buck. Oh wait. That makes you a liar again. Your inability to debate in the recent weeks without blatant lying is getting annoying.

given that you are the one always worried about short-term demand, you would think you would recognize the immediate-term benefits of massive investment and higher-than-average paying jobs. or is it only public sector investment and employment that you care for?

Wrong. Getting oil out of tar sands is costly and slow. We'd be lucky to get it out in 10 years to market. It's not the same thing as natural gas (but I doubt you'd understand why). So there wouldn't be any real immediate benefit from expansion. Canada put in the capital investment for Alberta Tar Sands in 90s. Anyone who thinks we can get a quick boost from this is stupid and does not understand the process of capital investment to getting products to global markets in the tar sand industry. Hell, that applies to virtually all oil that we can drill in America. We do not have the kind of oil sources that simply bubble to the surface in large amounts like the Saudis do. It costs them $2 to pump a gallon of oil. We are not in the same situation. To think so is to admit you are an idiot.

yet another great reason to allow it access to our full reserves so that it can compete and beat them.

No, not really. The cost of extraction will be high, and global prices aren't peaking. And the expertise and knowledge hasn't become ubiquitous to make it cheap. You won't respond to that. Watch. You won't.

I'm surprised you don't recognize the Economic Freedom Index.

I don't buy any graph until I can link it back to its source. It may look like it from there, but until it's linked, it means nothing.

I see how you just completely ignored how more regulation in Canada actually prevented a major recession. But you can't be bothered with facts that hurt your ideology now can you?

:shrug: well if you want to broaden the definition into that old standard of economics "the allocation of scarce resources that have alternate uses", you could make the argument that economics is "rationing" of a form - but you would still be incorrect here with regards to whether or not the solution is to allow individuals to allocate their resources, or to allow the state to seize those resources and then reallocate them as it sees fit.

You as usually, fail to see the middle ground. Seriously, what is with you a binary choices? States can set up healthcare systems which force providers to compete to reduce the costs to individuals who then make a choice. A single payer system can produce this.
 
the New Deal got the Government into the business of directly or indirectly subsidizing home ownership. surprise, when you artificially alter incentive structures, you can create bubbles.

And the government also inflates the military industrial complex.

Homes are a better option IMHO.
 
Which party is more responsible for the state of the economy?

And how did banks get too big to fail?

I thought this was common knowledge:


" Ten years ago to the day, the government reversed one of the key elements of the Depression-era banking laws, knocking down the firewall between commercial banks, which take deposits and make loans, and investment banks, which underwrite securities. The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 was seen at the time as a way to help American banks grow larger and better compete on the world stage."

“Without the watering down and ultimate repeal of Glass-Steagall, the banks would have been barred from most of these activities,” Demos said. “The market and appetite for derivatives would then have been far smaller, and Washington might not have felt a need to rescue the institutional victims.”
10 Years Later, Looking at Repeal of Glass-Steagall - NYTimes.com
 
the New Deal got the Government into the business of directly or indirectly subsidizing home ownership. surprise, when you artificially alter incentive structures, you can create bubbles.


Explain the housing bubble in Ireland, and the UK?

Explain the tech bubble using the same methodology?

Heck explain the property bubbles in Japan in the 80s and China currently using the same methodology
 
the New Deal got the Government into the business of directly or indirectly subsidizing home ownership. surprise, when you artificially alter incentive structures, you can create bubbles.

Hold on CP...banks are more to blame than anyone else...subsidizing and making ridiculous loans are two different things...I have a guy that worked for me for years...got a divorce later in life and went bankrupt, got remarried right after going bankrupt applied for a 140,000 mortgage on a house selling for 130,000 because he didnt have the closing costs and HE GOT THE LOAN...thats not the govts fault...thats the LENDERS fault...lender beware....the banks thought they would make these loans...housing values would go up they would foreclose on SOME and make a killing...well they were wrong and they got banged...and WE bailed them out...and bush did the bailing out of the banks in his first stimulus.....so lets spread this blame around ok
Many foreclosures are because people have been unemployed for two years and some more...and people that were layed off are now underemployed and cannot make their monthly bills. There are millions underwater on the mortgages not because it was originally a bad loan but because their housing values have dropped up to 60%....hell im not underwater but my house value in florida has dropped 40%....
 
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And the government also inflates the military industrial complex.

no, because government is generally a military monopsony. so rather than wrecking the economy (as a housing bubble can do), military spending just drains the economy.
 
Hold on CP...banks are more to blame than anyone else...subsidizing and making ridiculous loans are two different things...I have a guy that worked for me for years...got a divorce later in life and went bankrupt, got remarried right after going bankrupt applied for a 140,000 mortgage on a house selling for 130,000 because he didnt have the closing costs and HE GOT THE LOAN...thats not the govts fault...thats the LENDERS fault...lender beware....the banks thought they would make these loans...housing values would go up they would foreclose on SOME and make a killing...well they were wrong and they got banged...and WE bailed them out...and bush did the bailing out of the banks in his first stimulus.....so lets spread this blame around ok

I don't think I would suggest that it is solely the government's fault. just that they created the conditions that fueled a bubble, twisting incentives. the banks shouldn't have given the loans? when massive numbers of Americans are lying on their loan applications - it is the banks' fault that every boomer thinks he deserves a McMansion so he can keep up with his idiot brother?

government lowered the price of debt to fuel a bubble.
government subsidized housing in particular and pushed banks into making sure that that bubble would be in housing
government then richly rewarded the heads of the GSE's, who got off scott free. banks were easily just as much victims as perpetrators - but those guys were the straight up villains in this tale, and lah-te-dah, when you're barney frankl's boyfriend it means never having to say your sorry or give back your millions.

Many foreclosures are because people have been unemployed for two years and some more...and people that were layed off are now underemployed and cannot make their monthly bills. There are millions underwater on the mortgages not because it was originally a bad loan but because their housing values have dropped up to 60%....hell im not underwater but my house value in florida has dropped 40%....

which is why we never should have gotten into second mortgages, no-money-down loans, ninjja loans, HELOCs, or any of that crap. oh, but you know who did that? consumers. we the people dicked that dog.
 
I don't think I would suggest that it is solely the government's fault. just that they created the conditions that fueled a bubble, twisting incentives. the banks shouldn't have given the loans? when massive numbers of Americans are lying on their loan applications - it is the banks' fault that every boomer thinks he deserves a McMansion so he can keep up with his idiot brother?

government lowered the price of debt to fuel a bubble.
government subsidized housing in particular and pushed banks into making sure that that bubble would be in housing
government then richly rewarded the heads of the GSE's, who got off scott free. banks were easily just as much victims as perpetrators - but those guys were the straight up villains in this tale, and lah-te-dah, when you're barney frankl's boyfriend it means never having to say your sorry or give back your millions.



which is why we never should have gotten into second mortgages, no-money-down loans, ninjja loans, HELOCs, or any of that crap. oh, but you know who did that? consumers. we the people dicked that dog.

CP what are you talking about...lieing on their application ? people have been lieing on loan applications since the cave man days...its the LENDER that supposed to check employment, check credit, etc...YOU the borrower pay for that in an Origination Fee...its always been that way....look man you cannot clean this up for the banks and blame anyone but them for the bad loans...period.
 
Republicans, but only barely.

It is the whole political system that is at fault, but it is the ideology of the Republican party that is the basis for much of the crisis we have today.
 
CP what are you talking about...lieing on their application ? people have been lieing on loan applications since the cave man days...its the LENDER that supposed to check employment, check credit, etc...YOU the borrower pay for that in an Origination Fee...its always been that way....look man you cannot clean this up for the banks and blame anyone but them for the bad loans...period.

1. agreed the banks should have done better due diligence
2. the fact that you were able to get away with it does not excuse committing fraud
 
How did the New Deal continue the depression?
Facts would say no it didnt. Unemployment plumented once the New Deal was initiated.

Employment #'s:

Number unemployed in America:

1929
2.6 million

1933
15 million

1935
11 million

1937
8.3 million

1938
10.5 million

1939
9.2 million

1940
8 million

I dont know how you say that continued the depression?
And how did it tear up the constitution?

Sure, it's all that simple...for you and Catawba. Sorry to disappoint you.

The Great Depression and New Deal, 1929-1939
 
The Republicans own the current financial disaster! No doubtr! The cost of the Iraq War, plus the Bush tax cuts broke the bank. When you put a moron in charge, you should expect less than desirable results. "Jus' bidness, don't ya' know!" And the rich got richer. Now, is that just a coincidence? Bush cronies. Gee, what a surprise. Ol' SoupForBrains was being honored at Goldman Sachs and the OWS people found out and were outside chanting for his arrest. Gee, I wonder why?
 
The Republicans own the current financial disaster! No doubtr! The cost of the Iraq War, plus the Bush tax cuts broke the bank. When you put a moron in charge, you should expect less than desirable results. "Jus' bidness, don't ya' know!" And the rich got richer. Now, is that just a coincidence? Bush cronies. Gee, what a surprise. Ol' SoupForBrains was being honored at Goldman Sachs and the OWS people found out and were outside chanting for his arrest. Gee, I wonder why?
Goldman sachs was and continues to be one of Obama's biggest supporters and has supplied several dem "stars" like MF bankruptcy tainted John Corzine
 
Goldman sachs was and continues to be one of Obama's biggest supporters and has supplied several dem "stars" like MF bankruptcy tainted John Corzine

Didn't they also supply Tim Geithner, the Paulsons, Bernanke etc. We need to shut the revolving door between the Corporatocracy and our government. They buy both sides to be safe. For the most part, Republicans represent "big money" in all of its insidious varieties. Just look at this board to see who is bitching (feeling fear) about the OWS protesters who are the 99%.
 
Sure, it's all that simple...for you and Catawba. Sorry to disappoint you.

The Great Depression and New Deal, 1929-1939

Yep, exactly why the Glass-Steagall Act was put in place which protected us from this happening again until its removal.

From your article:

"Background and Causes of the Great Depression

The 1920s "boom" enriched only a fraction of the American people. Earnings for farmers and industrial workers stagnated or fell. While this represented lower production costs for companies, it also precluded growth in consumer demand. Thus, by the mid 1920s the ability of most Americans to purchase new automobiles, new houses and other durable goods was beginning to weaken.

This weakening demand was masked, however, by the "great bull market" in stocks on the New York Stock Exchange. The ever-growing price for stocks was, in part, the result of greater wealth concentration within the investor class. Eventually the Wall Street stock exchange began to take on a dangerous aura of invincibility, leading investors to ignore less optimistic indicators in the economy. Over-investment and speculating (gambling) in stocks further inflated their prices, contributing to the illusion of a robust economy.

The crucial point came in the 1920s when banks began to loan money to stock-buyers since stocks were the hottest commodity in the marketplace. Banks allowed Wall Street investors to use the stocks themselves as collateral. If the stocks dropped in value, and investors could not repay the banks, the banks would be left holding near-worthless collateral. Banks would then go broke, pulling productive businesses down with them as they called in loans and foreclosed mortgages in a desperate attempt to stay afloat.

But that doomsday scenario was laughed off by analysts and politicians who argued the U.S. stock market had entered a "New Era" where stock values and prices would always go up. That, of course, did not happen. Stock prices were seriously over-priced (when measured in the actual productivity of the companies they represented) making a market "correction" inevitable. In October 1929 the New York Stock Exchange's house of cards collapsed in the greatest market crash seen up to that time. Students are often surprised to learn that the stock market crash itself did not cause the rest of the economy to collapse. But, because American banks had loaned so heavily for stock purchases, falling stock prices began endangering local banks whose stock-buying borrowers began defaulting on their loans."

We need to once again separate investment banking from commercial banking as proposed in HR 1489.
H.R. 1489 - Summary: Return to Prudent Banking Act of 2011 (GovTrack.us)
 
Yep, exactly why the Glass-Steagall Act was put in place which protected us from this happening again until its removal.

What exactly did Glass-Steagall protect us from and how did it do so?
 
What exactly did Glass-Steagall protect us from and how did it do so?

Glass Steagall prevented banks too big to fail, they kept investment banking separate from commercial banking.
 
Didn't they also supply Tim Geithner, the Paulsons, Bernanke etc. We need to shut the revolving door between the Corporatocracy and our government. They buy both sides to be safe. For the most part, Republicans represent "big money" in all of its insidious varieties. Just look at this board to see who is bitching (feeling fear) about the OWS protesters who are the 99%.

Both parties cater to big money. The GOP tends to favor rich people who became rich despite the government while the dems have as its main fat cats, those who are rich because of the government. Welfare socialism appeals to the uber rich
 
"CNN/ORC Poll. Sept. 23-25, 2011. N=1,010 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.


"Do you think the policies of Barack Obama and the Democrats or George W. Bush and the Republicans are more responsible for the country's current economic problems?"



Obama, Bush, Both Equally Neither
Democrats Republicans (Vol.) (Vol.) Unsure
% % % % %
9/23-25/11 32 52 13 2 2
7/18-20/11 29 57 10 3 -
4/29-5/1/11 30 55 10 4 -
9/1-2/10 33 53 10 3 1"

Budget/Taxes

Well shucks, the formatting got mixed up when it was posted. You can check the full results from the link I provided. What the poll is showing however is that, for the last year, the majority of Americans (by a 20% margin) still think Bush and the Republicans are more responsible for the economy than Obama and the Democrats.
 
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Decades of Republocrat rule led us to this place.
Yeah, too bad your candidates are too stupid to get elected.
 
Yeah, too bad your candidates are too stupid to get elected.

That was an ugly thing to say to Ikari, and what makes it worse is that you provided absolutely nothing to back up your ugly words.

You should be ashamed of that post.
 
Explain the housing bubble in Ireland, and the UK?

Explain the tech bubble using the same methodology?

Heck explain the property bubbles in Japan in the 80s and China currently using the same methodology

You know better than to expect Cpwill to actually examine the actual causes and not apply a "one size fits all damn the actual facts on the ground they get in my way" ideology.

A sign of an educated person in economics knows that a one size fits all ideology is patently retarded. That's why he never even tries to meet the challenges of a difficult question when it threatens to destroy his ideology.
 
You know better than to expect Cpwill to actually examine the actual causes and not apply a "one size fits all damn the actual facts on the ground they get in my way" ideology.

A sign of an educated person in economics knows that a one size fits all ideology is patently retarded. That's why he never even tries to meet the challenges of a difficult question when it threatens to destroy his ideology.

Yes I do

Despite his knowledge his ideological bias always causes innaccurate analysis (ie government bad, private business good) despite many obvious examples to the opposite. Any example that counters his ideology is ignored.

Housing bubble - governments fault through regulation, despite the fact the most regulated state when it comes to mortgages (Texas) did not have a housing bubble. If the CRA was at fault forcing banks to make bad loans Texas would have had a housing bubble as well. Since Texas did not have a housing bubble despite facing the same regulations from the CRA, and the same Freddie and Frannie Mac as everyother state, it stands to reason that the housing bubble and the loans that were made by the banks were voluntary and not forced by the government. Sure the federal government promoted home ownership, but with effective regulation of the mortgage and financial industry the banks could not have made the idiotic loans they wanted to make (and make money doing so)

Of course some will state the government did it, and leave it at that
 
Yes I do

Despite his knowledge his ideological bias always causes innaccurate analysis (ie government bad, private business good) despite many obvious examples to the opposite. Any example that counters his ideology is ignored.

Indeed. I find it sad how he keeps posting the same refuted studies time after time after time despite being pointed out they have flaws the size of the Andromeda Galaxy. And he never addresses those flaws.

Housing bubble - governments fault through regulation, despite the fact the most regulated state when it comes to mortgages (Texas) did not have a housing bubble. If the CRA was at fault forcing banks to make bad loans Texas would have had a housing bubble as well. Since Texas did not have a housing bubble despite facing the same regulations from the CRA, and the same Freddie and Frannie Mac as everyother state, it stands to reason that the housing bubble and the loans that were made by the banks were voluntary and not forced by the government. Sure the federal government promoted home ownership, but with effective regulation of the mortgage and financial industry the banks could not have made the idiotic loans they wanted to make (and make money doing so)

Absolutely. Furthermore, on a national scale the NPLs are mostly from non-CRA covered banks. I've never seen anyone who blames the CRA address that specific point with something other than saying that the overall push caused non-CRA banks to get in on it. Which may be true (and probably is), but no one made them do it.

Of course some will state the government did it, and leave it at that

And flee the thread when challenged. Man, if this place keeps going like this, election season will be a literal hell here.
 
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