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Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

Should the Poor not be allowed to vote

  • The poor should be banned from voting

    Votes: 1 33.3%
  • The richest 10% should be banned from voting

    Votes: 1 33.3%
  • The top 1% should be banned from voting

    Votes: 1 33.3%
  • Only the middle class should be allowed to vote

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    3
common sense and obvious observations seem to be ignored by those who find the conclusions drawn from them to be disturbing.

I guess some think if you get something for free, you are NOT MORE LIKELY to demand more of it than if you are actually taxed to PAY for it. To me its rather obvious that people will clamor for more handouts when they don't have to pay for them.
 
Benjamin Franklin spoke those words long before a whole litany of democratic reforms were instituted for some 200 years after he was dead and buried. Those democratic reforms would include
*** expansion of voting rights among non property owners
*** expanding voting rights to African Americans and people of color
*** expanding voting rights to female citizens
*** expanding voting rights to citizens 18 to 20 years of age
*** abolishing the poll tax, literacy test and other obstacles to voting
*** introducing voter driven procedures such as recall, initiative and referendum to give citizens a direct voice
*** changing how US Senators are elected
*** creating legislative districts in which one man and one vote are the guiding principle

All of these democratic reforms - plus others - have significantly altered the structure of our political system from the pure Constitutional republic that Franklin knew. Today, we are very much a Constitutional democratic republic.

None of which rebut nor deny Franklin's wisdom
 
I'm entirely fine saying the only people who can vote are those who pay income taxes. If you're not going to pay for government, you ought to have no say over it.
These screwball conservative ideas are what will be the ruination of our nation...
"are there no prisons, are there no workhouses"
To conservatives - try being poor for a time - this may be an attitude changer..
 
These screwball conservative ideas are what will be the ruination of our nation...
"are there no prisons, are there no workhouses"
To conservatives - try being poor for a time - this may be an attitude changer..

being poor can do two things

if you are wired like most liberals, you become addicted to government handouts and blame your lot on "the rich"

if you are successful you used that status as an incentive to improve your lot
 
I deleted it.. But you are the one that made it personal, hon........ BTW, save that fake hon crap for someone who you like.

I do feel mentally handicapped should be able to vote if they are mentally competent.. Why should they not be allowed their right?

I made nothing personal. That was you. Remember? You personally attacked me, and broke the Vegas Rule. I just happen to quote the post before you deleted it. There's no hurt feelings here. It's you with the personal problem.

Secondly, I merely posed a question. Like I said, there are several states where the mentally retarded cannot vote. But it is good that you finally got around to answering the question with a half way intelligent response. However, someone who is mentally handicapped is not likely to be competent to vote. I have a mentally handicapped step brother. He is twelve, and he has the mentality of a six year old. By the time he is 18 and legally able to vote, he may have the mentality of a 12 year old. Do we want 12 year olds to vote? I don't. At the very least, instead of getting offended and bent out of shape, you could try to logically analyze this issue.
 
None of which rebut nor deny Franklin's wisdom

you forgot to ad the key words ".............. as it applied in the time and in the world in which he spoke them"

then you have a complete statement that is historically accurate.
 
The rich are absolutely the ones that influence every aspect of Politics and govt in this country. They "BUY" whatever is good for them.

The statement by some on this forum that the poor shouldnt be allowed to vote because they only will vote for anyone that will give them something...is as hypocritical as it gets....The rich only vote for those that will give them lots of taxpayer money for nothing in subsidies...will fight only for them to lower thier taxs and get rid of bothersome regulations so they can produce worse crap or dangerous crap cheaper for more profit.
The top 10% should be banned from making any Political Donations whatso ever becaue they only donate to those that will GIVE THEM something....
The worst of the worst is the American Bar Association and Trial lawyers that will pay millions to politicians not to change any of their gravy trains. They want frivolous lawsuits and disgusting class action suits a plenty so they can milk america endlessly....its all a big joke and the middleclass take the brunt of the bad jokes from the bottom and down from the top
 
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These screwball conservative ideas are what will be the ruination of our nation...
"are there no prisons, are there no workhouses"
To conservatives - try being poor for a time - this may be an attitude changer..

I've been poor. It sucks. That's why I worked my ass off to stop being poor. That's why I expect everyone else to be willing to do the same. If you're not, then you deserve what you get.
 
If we fear people voting their own self interests, then 98% of the entire voting eligible population would be deemed ineligible to vote.
 
being poor can do two things

if you are wired like most liberals, you become addicted to government handouts and blame your lot on "the rich"

if you are successful you used that status as an incentive to improve your lot

I'm a liberal, and I don't plan on being poor forever. I'm receiving a Pell Grant, but I'm certainly not addicted to government "handouts". Your argument is flawed, and all you want to do is demonize the people you disagree with. For someone who goes on about how liberals piss and moan about the rich, you sure do your fair share pissing and moaning about the poor.
 
Everyone who is a citizen and not a convicted felon should be able to vote.

What Gorilla suggests is nothing more than a Roman style "slave, plebeian and citizen" type society. Sorry, but I like liberty and freedom for all men. Not something based on "lesser men" principles.

Where does it say in the Constitution that felons shouldn't be allowed to vote?
 
How is that Conservatives, who love FREEDOM & EQUAL PROTECTION FOR ALL, are now discussing how the poor should have a lesser vote than the rich??

Considering the extent to which I am seeing this meme, I suspect that it is being "framed" so that it will sound reasonable the next time the Republicans are in full control.

This would be proceeded by elimination of the filibuster.
 
These screwball conservative ideas are what will be the ruination of our nation...
"are there no prisons, are there no workhouses"
To conservatives - try being poor for a time - this may be an attitude changer..

Now I don't agree with the stupidity of "the poor can't vote or have to work for it" as that goes against everyone being protected equally under the law. If you have no voice in the law, equal will tend to go out the window.

This does not mean just because someone is poor they get a free ride. Being poor is not an excuse for failure although being poor is often a result of failure, as was in my case. No excuse for not being able to pull yourself up and out of it and become a successful, contributing member of society, period.

Has nothing to do with "screwball conservative idea's" and everything to do with good solid conservative values.
 
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I've been poor. It sucks. That's why I worked my ass off to stop being poor. That's why I expect everyone else to be willing to do the same. If you're not, then you deserve what you get.


Thats admirable...and I was quite the poor kid too...but I also know theres many that no matter how hard they try cant climb out of it....that land of opportunity crap is a great political soundbite...but they forget to tell you its not for everyone in the same way
 
Not at all.
I didn't say only those who serve the community should have protected rights, I said only those who do community service should be able to vote and serve in public office.

Nearly everyone can do some type of community service.
All it takes is willpower.

Hell, I've thought about this a lot and don't even have a problem with those in the process of their service being allowed to vote.

And it has to be actual hands dirty community service.

Money can't buy your way out.

I don't even mind a basic civics test, as long as it is done in such a way that it doesn't disenfranchise ANYBODY.
 
re: Limiting voting rights to those who have "proven" themselves worthy.

First, unreasonably subjective. Who decides?

Second, the potential for abuse is rampant.

Third, and most important in my mind, is the short-sightedness and hypocrisy. The people who want to limit others who haven't 'earned' it, in part because they fear those others might somehow vote their self-interests, are actually guilty of the same premise. They want only people who are like themselves, whether it be in work ethic and/or mindset, participating. They're good at talking the talk of freedom, but failing miserably at walking the walk. It's really nothing more than thinly-veiled discrimination.
 
Where does it say in the Constitution that felons shouldn't be allowed to vote?

You should probably read section 2 of the 14th amendment.

The Supreme Court has acknowledged the provisions of Section 2 in recent times. For example, in Richardson v. Ramirez, 418 U.S. 24 (1974) the Court cited Section 2 as justification for the states disenfranchising felons.
 
I'm ok with current felons not having the right to vote, but feel that felons that have served their sentences fully should regain their right to vote.

I really don't see the need to take away the right at all, but current felons aren't real high on my priority list, and their voting rights aren't nearly as important to me. I'll concede that one.
 
I'm ok with current felons not having the right to vote, but feel that felons that have served their sentences fully should regain their right to vote.

I really don't see the need to take away the right at all, but current felons aren't real high on my priority list, and their voting rights aren't nearly as important to me. I'll concede that one.

I actually agree with that. I do know it is possible to have the rights they lost reinstated but I don't know the time or circumstance involved to have it done.
 
Yes you are still a citizen.
See; the majority of the U.S. who don't vote or serve in public office.

They still retain all their constitutional protections.



If voting were so important to so many, than doing community service wouldn't be that great a sacrifice.
I think it's telling that people aren't willing to push a broom or pick up some trash off the highway, in order to retain something so important to them.

Taxation is slavery, lets end all taxation.

And I don't even see why ones service even needs to be menial. Teach people to read or provide other tutoring. Help out with child care if you have kids that need more of your time. Help a wounded soldier with rehab.

There is a **** ton of things that I feel would satisfy the requirement.

Heinleins came up with the whole "pay it forward" idea as well, ya know.
 
re: Limiting voting rights to those who have "proven" themselves worthy.

First, unreasonably subjective. Who decides?

Second, the potential for abuse is rampant.

Third, and most important in my mind, is the short-sightedness and hypocrisy. The people who want to limit others who haven't 'earned' it, in part because they fear those others might somehow vote their self-interests, are actually guilty of the same premise. They want only people who are like themselves, whether it be in work ethic and/or mindset, participating. They're good at talking the talk of freedom, but failing miserably at walking the walk. It's really nothing more than thinly-veiled discrimination.
Bingo, people who want to limit the right to vote determine limits with a certain type of person in mind and whether or not they realize it, the person is shaped partly in the image of themselves where they treat their own subjective values as an objective measure of worthiness. That is what makes it a dangerous proposition.
 
Considering the extent to which I am seeing this meme, I suspect that it is being "framed" so that it will sound reasonable the next time the Republicans are in full control.

Absolutely that is the strategy. They are laying the foundation and groundwork to get such ideas into the public discourse and then eventually attempt to enact such repressive measures into law.

I believe all this is strongly connected into the demographic projections for a white minority in forty or fifty years and what it could mean to the white persons party - the GOP.
 
I think a lot of conservatives think that it is -- not easy -- but reasonably achievable for people to pull themselves up out of poverty and get off government support. I think this is a somewhat understandable but misguided takeaway from the fact that it is very very easy to become poor. The threat of poverty hangs over the majority of americans at all times, especially during a recession. It's only natural for someone to think, I could lose my job at any time, but I would never be one of those people on welfare for the rest of my life. I'd find something to do to pay for necessities, without government help. And that is probably true.

But the fundamental misunderstanding is that the people who are stuck on food stamps and other social programs are not like you at all. Conservatives should ask themselves what type of work they would be able to find without their college education (and probably not even a high school diploma), without the influence of educated parents, without any substantial connections to people of more than minimal status or wealth, without any disposable income, without any credit history, without a reliable means of transportation, and without any work experience at a job other than delivering pizzas, washing dishes, working at the equivalent of a fast-food restaurant, or being a janitor. Add to that the possibility that you may suffer from questionable decision-making abilities, stemming from any number of problems, from lack of education to some sort of actual mental problem. What type of opportunities can such a person create for himself? Then maybe you should subtract some of the government services these people get, from food stamps to educational loans, and then ask yourself the question again.

There is an overwhelming sense among the poor that it is pointless to work hard and try to achieve success, I don't dispute that. But I think that feeling stems more from the overwhelming obstacles of their situation than it does from their satisfaction living on government benefits. The fact that there are so few people who have made it from the bottom to the top is not because poor people don't want to work hard. It's because their future was largely decided before they turned 18. The people who rise up from poverty, almost exclusively, are those who either worked hard from childhood or those who fell into poverty late in life.

I submit to you that the reason we have so many people who can't support themselves is not because we effectively incentivize them to remain in poverty, but because we don't provide/mandate enough opportunity for them to rise out of poverty. The amount people get from the federal government in most cases is enough to survive, but not enough to remedy a lack of education and work experience. The choice, in my mind, is either to cut benefits and eradicate poverty by eradicating (literally) the poor, or creating/mandating opportunities for them (focusing on the education of children) so that we don't end up paying for their food and housing for the rest of their lives. But that will cost more, not less, than we are already spending, at least in the short-term. Or you can continue with the current system, which I agree is ineffective in any way other than keeping people alive.
 
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Benjamin Franklin spoke those words long before a whole litany of democratic reforms were instituted for some 200 years after he was dead and buried. Those democratic reforms would include
*** expansion of voting rights among non property owners
*** expanding voting rights to African Americans and people of color
*** expanding voting rights to female citizens
*** expanding voting rights to citizens 18 to 20 years of age
*** abolishing the poll tax, literacy test and other obstacles to voting
*** introducing voter driven procedures such as recall, initiative and referendum to give citizens a direct voice
*** changing how US Senators are elected
*** creating legislative districts in which one man and one vote are the guiding principle

All of these democratic reforms - plus others - have significantly altered the structure of our political system from the pure Constitutional republic that Franklin knew. Today, we are very much a Constitutional democratic republic.

:) thanks for the history lesson. I notice a couple of errors (that last part should read "one man, one vote, so long as that one man is a minority, and his minority is the majority in the district"), but over all very good.

it does nothing to address the actual point, mind you, but you seem to have been boning up since the time you didn't realize that FDR initiated agricultural price floors, and I'm always in favor of people reading history :thumbs:
 
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