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Ammunition

Should all ammunition be legal?

  • Yes

    Votes: 18 51.4%
  • No

    Votes: 17 48.6%

  • Total voters
    35
Should all ammunition be legal?

It shouldn't. And I don't think it is. I believe hollow points and armor piercing rounds are illegal in many, if not all, states.
 
It shouldn't. And I don't think it is. I believe hollow points and armor piercing rounds are illegal in many, if not all, states.



Maggie, I love you sweetheart.

It is edumacation time.


Hollow points are legal in almost all states, and damn well should be. Hollow points are good. HP's help take the bad guy down with fewer shots, and are less likely to overpenetrate and endanger bystanders than ordinary "hardball" FMJ rounds.

Armor-piercing ammo.... sigh.

Okay, let's get out my Class III kevlar vest from my cop days again.

My Class III vest will stop handgun rounds readily. It will not stop an ORDINARY BULLET from an ORDINARY DEER RIFLE worth a frack. Most cops wear class III or lower vests.

"Armor piercing bullets" are more fantasy than reality. Carbide-tipped bullets are used for a variety of purposes... some competitors use them as match-grade bullets for some reason to do with extreme accuracy, I'm not really up on all that. The military used to use them for penetration of light cover or light armored vehicles IN RIFLES, I don't know if they still do, they're supposed to be really ****ty on stopping power in .223

I can't find any proof that "armor piercing" bullets in HANDGUNS actually aid in penetrating kevlar vests. I do know that the kevlar vests most cops wear will NOT stop almost any rifle bullet.


If we want to outlaw anything that can pierce a vest, we'll have to start by outlawing all rifle ammo. :no:
 
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Regarding my Post #2 above....



Thanks, Goshin! ;)
 
It shouldn't. And I don't think it is. I believe hollow points and armor piercing rounds are illegal in many, if not all, states.

They're not. Exploding ammunition is, however. Hollowpoint ammunition is banned by the Geneva Convention. Only full metal jacket ammunition is legal for military engagements.
 
Maggie, I love you sweetheart.

It is edumacation time.


Hollow points are legal in almost all states, and damn well should be. Hollow points are good. HP's help take the bad guy down with fewer shots, and are less likely to overpenetrate and endanger bystanders than ordinary "hardball" FMJ rounds.

Armor-piercing ammo.... sigh.

Okay, let's get out my Class III kevlar vest from my cop days again.

My Class III vest will stop handgun rounds readily. It will not stop an ORDINARY BULLET from an ORDINARY DEER RIFLE worth a frack. Most cops wear class III or lower vests.

"Armor piercing bullets" are more fantasy than reality. Carbide-tipped bullets are used for a variety of purposes... some competitors use them as match-grade bullets for some reason to do with extreme accuracy, I'm not really up on all that. The military used to use them for penetration of light cover or light armored vehicles IN RIFLES, I don't know if they still do, they're supposed to be really ****ty on stopping power in .223

I can't find any proof that "armor piercing" bullets in HANDGUNS actually aid in penetrating kevlar vests. I do know that the kevlar vests most cops wear will NOT stop almost any rifle bullet.


If we want to outlaw anything that can pierce a vest, we'll have to start by outlawing all rifle ammo. :no:

Shouldn't the cops be the only ones (Including military of course, those bastards have everything!) who can use all types of ammunition? This would make their job safer, wouldn't it?
 
Shouldn't the cops be the only ones (Including military of course, those bastards have everything!) who can use all types of ammunition? This would make their job safer, wouldn't it?


As an ex-cop, I think I can give you an insightful and well-considered answer to that question.


"Not really, no."


:lol:
 
Okay, I'll elaborate a bit.

I never worried much about what kind of bullet someone was shooting at me. I was more worried they'd hit me in the face, neck, armpit, groin or anywhere else a vest doesn't cover. Or that they had an ordinary deer rifle, which would go right thru me vest and all like so much cheese.

Not to mention knives, fists, boots, tire-irons and all the other things that can come your way....
 
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Well, I'd never go out and buy fragmentation rounds, but I can't see any reason why someone else shouldn't be able to. If I'm justified in shooting, then it hardly matters how much damage I do in the process.

On the topic of armor-piercing rounds-- Goshin's clarifications aside-- body armor is perfectly legal. Criminals don't use it because it's expensive, bulky, and suspicious looking. But what happens if they do? If I am carrying arms because of legitimate concern that I may find myself in armed conflict, and you support my right to do so, then shouldn't I be allowed to carry arms that are going to be effective in that armed conflict?
 
Well, I'd never go out and buy fragmentation rounds, but I can't see any reason why someone else shouldn't be able to. If I'm justified in shooting, then it hardly matters how much damage I do in the process.

I would want it to be illegal to limit the damage someone can do before someone intervenes. You don't want the cops to get their and the whole block is gone.
 
I'm not so sure if thermobaric ammo should be made readily available for purchase by the civilian consumer.

When a Gun Is More Than a Gun


Frackin' awesome. I want one. :)

Of course, this IS the sort of thing that's reasonable to restrict... because it isn't actually a bullet, it is a 20mm grenade.
 
I would want it to be illegal to limit the damage someone can do before someone intervenes. You don't want the cops to get their and the whole block is gone.


Oh come on now, that's a huge overstatement....
 
Oh come on now, that's a huge overstatement....

The principle is still the same though I think. We want to limit the damage someone can do before police intervened. Blame the ones that don't follow the laws, they ruin it for everybody. Although you are right, nothing can take out blocks with the exception of bombs, c4, etc etc.
 
The principle is still the same though I think. We want to limit the damage someone can do before police intervened. Blame the ones that don't follow the laws, they ruin it for everybody. Although you are right, nothing can take out blocks with the exception of bombs, c4, etc etc.


You have to understand how bullets "work", which most people do not.


With few exceptions, bullets do NOT knock people ass-over-appetite to the ground. "Every action has an equal but opposite reaction". If the bullet was that powerful, the recoil would knock the SHOOTER to the ground too.

Bullets make holes. Holes in people result in blood-loss. Blood loss results in dizziness, weakness, faintness, and eventually unconsciousness, and after a while untreated, death. There's also nerve damage but that's unrealiable unless you make a head shot, and head shots with hand guns are problematic due to skull resistance at any distance.

So mostly, a gun "stops" a BG by making a hole and causing him to bleed. The bigger and deeper the hole, the faster his blood pressure drops out, the faster he loses consciousness.... and the quicker he ceases to be a threat.

There's also the psych factor. Most people who get shot cease action because of psych reactions, their brain says "Oh **** I'm shot!" and they are too distracted by this alarming situation (and the pain) to do much else.

Some people don't experience psych reactions.... drug flipouts for instance, or people who are just really damn tough. This is when you have stories where cops shoot someone 75 times... Why?.... because the sumbeech kept shooting back!!

If you limit damage it means more bullets are going to fly... his and mine.... before someone loses enough BP to pass out. More bullets flying is not a good thing for anyone in the area.
 
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You have to understand how bullets "work", which most people do not.


With few exceptions, bullets do NOT knock people ass-over-appetite to the ground. "Every action has an equal but opposite reaction". If the bullet was that powerful, the recoil would knock the SHOOTER to the ground too.

Bullets make holes. Holes in people result in blood-loss. Blood loss results in dizziness, weakness, faintness, and eventually unconsciousness, and after a while untreated, death. There's also nerve damage but that's unrealiable unless you make a head shot, and head shots with hand guns are problematic due to skull resistance at any distance.

So mostly, a gun "stops" a BG by making a hole and causing him to bleed. The bigger and deeper the hole, the faster his blood pressure drops out, the faster he loses consciousness.... and the quicker he ceases to be a threat.

There's also the psych factor. Most people who get shot cease action because of psych reactions, their brain says "Oh **** I'm shot!" and they are too distracted by this alarming situation (and the pain) to do much else.

Some people don't experience psych reactions.... drug flipouts for instance, or people who are just really damn tough. This is when you have stories where cops shoot someone 75 times... Why?.... because the sumbeech kept shooting back!!

If you limit damage it means more bullets are going to fly... his and mine.... before someone loses enough BP to pass out.

Wouldn't you want to give all advantages to the cops though?

With few exceptions, bullets do NOT knock people ass-over-appetite to the ground. "Every action has an equal but opposite reaction". If the bullet was that powerful, the recoil would knock the SHOOTER to the ground too.

I knew that, I find it funny when someone thinks that. Did they miss the day in class where they taught Neuton's laws of physics?
 
Regarding my Post #2 above....



Thanks, Goshin! ;)



You're fine, hon, there's another 500 people on DP that don't know about ammo either and didn't have the nerve to post anything, so we'll just edumacate them too. :)
 
Scenerio: A FIGHT BETWEEN TWO INDIVIDUALS - BOTH USEING WEAPONS.

One is useing a 3" Buck Pocket Knife....The other has a razor sharp Machete.
or
One is useing a Handgun with Round-nose Bullets....The other a handgun with Hollow Point Bullets.

Botton line is this....There will always be something better.​
 
Wouldn't you want to give all advantages to the cops though?



I knew that, I find it funny when someone thinks that. Did they miss the day in class where they taught Neuton's laws of physics?


Okay, son, how do we go about that? Shall we simply ban hollowpoint ammo? Well, good HPs do more damage than FMJ ball, but then again FMJ ball is more likely to overpenetrate and/or richochet and pose a danger to bystanders. Where's the trade-off?

Hell you can make your own hollowpoints... peel the metal jacket back from the nose a little and drill a hole in the lead, you're GTG. :shrug:

Maybe we just make all civilians use rubber bullets?? :lamo Um, no, I don't think that's a good idea. If 70yo Gramma has to shoot a 20yo thug who breaks into her house, I'd want her using something better than rubber bullets. Ditto if 22yo daughter needs to shoot a rapist, I want her using HPs.
 
how do we go about that? Shall we simply ban hollowpoint ammo? Well, good HPs do more damage than FMJ ball, but then again FMJ ball is more likely to overpenetrate and/or richochet and pose a danger to bystanders. Where's the trade-off?

A gad guy in a crowded area isn't going to care if his bullet over penetrates and kills another innocent civilian.
 
Anyway, in most gunfights skill trumps gear. Or in the words of the immortal Colonel Cooper, "It ain't the arrow, it's the Injun shooting it."

Top quality weapons and ammo and so on is good, take every advantage you can.... but skill and judgement are the keys to surviving a gunfight.



(not to mention a certain amount of dumb luck. It ain't the bullet with your name on it to fear, it's all those other bullets addressed "To Whom It May Concern"...)
 
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A gad guy in a crowded area isn't going to care if his bullet over penetrates and kills another innocent civilian.


Well if we're allegely trying to make society safer by banning hollowpoints, WE care, don't we? And by banning HP's we're making people LESS safe...
 
Okay, fine, HP's shouldn't be banned. How about tracer rounds? This would give a person in a night fight the advantage over the cops (Especially if they are using an automatic weapon :))
 
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Okay, fine, FMJ's shouldn't be banned. How about tracer rounds? This would give a person in a night fight the advantage over the cops (Especially if they are using an automatic weapon :))


Find me ONE case of BGs using a full auto weapon with tracer rounds in a night-fight with cops and we'll talk about it. :lol:


(FMJs are "full metal jacket" or "hardball". HP is "hollowpoint". HPs are what you want in your handgun.)
 
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After doing some research, I found this Winchester Ranger T. Should everyone be able to buy that?
 
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