Ammunition

Jryan said:

Could that not be because the children weren't scolded? How does that have anything to do with beating a child. Beating a child only has to do with instilling fear.



Ignorance is bliss.

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Not ignorance, son. I've probably read more books on a wider variety of topics than you've ever dreamed of. My personal library includes around 500 books and those are just the ones I thought were good enough to keep. Among them are treatises on psychology, child-rearing and sociology. I am far from ignorant.

The word you're looking for, and the thing that you so obviously lack, is EXPERIENCE. It makes a world of difference.

While I use the word "beating" sometimes just to shock fainting-daiseys like yourself, it reality I've never "Beat" a child, nor would I. "Beating" implies an uncontrolled fusillade of blows likely to inflict injury.

Beating and spanking are not the same. Spanking is a form of discipline carefully and deliberately applied to cause a little minor pain without inflicting actual injury. The knowlegeable parent knows that spanking in anger is to be avoided; it is to be done with formal deliberation and without heat; the reasons why explained carefully; love exhibited throughout the event by explaining that you don't WANT to spank your child, but you even more so don't want them to run out in front of a speeding car like they very nearly just did.

You want to talk about ignorance son, maybe you need to look in the mirror. You still haven't answered the question of how many children you're raised. I think we know why, don't we.

says who? It certainly had more effects on that for me, and it certainly does on my sons. Spanking works just like any other punishment - If you do X, then Y will happen to you, so don't do X.

I mean, legitimate fear should be part of it - the child should know "if I do x then y will happen to me, and I don't want that" - but that is part of any consistent disciplinary regime, irrespective of whether or not it includes spanking.

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That is part of maximizing pain in this world.

yeah. he's ignorant. because he's raised multiple children successfully. whereas you are experienced because you can google a book list?

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Because I have read a book list. I like how you won't ask for it though, it goes to show how you really don't care about your children. I mean because you would do anything for them, with the exception of reading a simple book.

TurtleDude said:

That is no way near as bad (the poster of course has been subjected to parenting by his father) as economic failures telling us high bracket taxpayers how much they know about economics

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:shrug: well I wouldn't define by that. Actors can be pretty high tax bracket, and I haven't seen a particularly notable amount of economic wisdom flowing from them. But it is possible to be a poor (money wise) economist.

given the uniqueness of children, I tend to look askance at anyone who claims to be a greater expert on the children than their parents.

Goshin said:

Not ignorance, son. I've probably read more books on a wider variety of topics than you've ever dreamed of. My personal library includes around 500 books and those are just the ones I thought were good enough to keep. Among them are treatises on psychology, child-rearing and sociology. I am far from ignorant.

The word you're looking for, and the thing that you so obviously lack, is EXPERIENCE. It makes a world of difference.

While I use the word "beating" sometimes just to shock fainting-daiseys like yourself, it reality I've never "Beat" a child, nor would I. "Beating" implies an uncontrolled fusillade of blows likely to inflict injury.

Beating and spanking are not the same. Spanking is a form of discipline carefully and deliberately applied to cause a little minor pain without inflicting actual injury. The knowlegeable parent knows that spanking in anger is to be avoided; it is to be done with formal deliberation and without heat; the reasons why explained carefully; love exhibited throughout the event by explaining that you don't WANT to spank your child, but you even more so don't want them to run out in front of a speeding car like they very nearly just did.

You want to talk about ignorance son, maybe you need to look in the mirror. You still haven't answered the question of how many children you're raised. I think we know why, don't we.

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You have just meet the definition of trolling then fine sir. You have also not read about how spanking provides nothing for your child but fear. Why do you want to give your child fear? He does not associate the fear with running in-front of the car, he associates the fear with you... Not saying you are a fear monger-er or some sick ****, just someone who lacks perspective.

Jryan said:

That is part of maximizing pain in this world.

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.....what???

Because I have read a book list.

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good for you. I hope that it prepares you better to be a parent should you ever become one. However, until that happy day arrives, realize that you are a blind man describing a painting to someone who can see it.

I like how you won't ask for it though, it goes to show how you really don't care about your children.

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:lamo

man, you really have no clue.

I mean because you would do anything for them, with the exception of reading a simple book.

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fail. I've gone through two books on parenting advice and am working my way through a third. But I select such books carefully, with the advice of more experienced parents whom I trust and who appear to have been quality, successful parents themselves.

cpwill said:

.....what???



good for you. I hope that it prepares you better to be a parent should you ever become one. However, until that happy day arrives, realize that you are a blind man describing a painting to someone who can see it.



:lamo

man, you really have no clue.



fail. I've gone through two books on parenting advice and am working my way through a third. But I select such books carefully, with the advice of more experienced parents whom I trust and who appear to have been quality, successful parents themselves.

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All with apparent disregard to psychology.

Jryan said:

You have just meet the definition of trolling then fine sir. You have also not read about how spanking provides nothing for your child but fear

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yes. that is because we were spanked ourselves, and have raised multiple children with spanking, and we know from personal experience that that claim is BS .

Why do you want to give your child fear?

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in order to keep him safe. my three year old, for example, is scared of playing with knives, because I have assured him multiple times that if he plays with them, they can hurt him really bad. I am now trying to teach my younger son to fear that if he reaches for the toaster oven, his hand will get smacked; and by doing so I hope to teach him not to grab a hot oven without the more painful experience of grabbing a hot one. Telling someone who doesn't speak yet that grabbing a hot oven will overload his skin with the immediate application of heat resulting in severe burns isn't exactly effective parenting - it's setting your child up for failure.

He does not associate the fear with running in-front of the car, he associates the fear with you...

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that is incorrect, as I can attest from personal experience. my child does not fear me, he fears pain that can occur if he behaves poorly or stupidly. when I was a child, I didn't fear my parents, I feared the result of misbehavior.

Now, if I were to start imposing plain old beatings, as Goshin has described, as opposed to spankings, as he has already described, then you might become correct. the child wouldn't see a natural link between the behavior and the punishment. and that is why consistency and communication is important. when my three year old picks up a toy and hits his baby brother in the face with it, we go to the chart, we talk about what happened, we read off the misbehavior, and we read off the connected punishment; and he has the option to admit what he did and apologize (and lessen the punishment) or not.

He see's the difference in punishment that flows from his behavior and I know that he does because he makes sure to mention it in his defense - right before he get's popped, he makes the point of saying "I told you the truth and didn't fight" and I say "yes, that's why I'm only going to pop you once" and he asks "hard?" and I say "no, not too hard, because you didn't fight". Then he comes up and turns around, I pop him once, and we hug and then he runs off to go back to playing. He used to try to lie his way out of it, and fight us during punishment (any punishment, time out, go to your room, you name it), and so we altered the rules to allow this in order to encourage good behavior. The kid ties the level of punishment to his behavior, and he altered his behavior accordingly.

You don't even know my child, and you're going to tell me what he thinks?

:lol:

Not saying you are a fear monger-er or some sick ****, just someone who lacks perspective.

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um. you do realize that the only person in this conversation with zero perspective is you....?

cpwill said:

yes. that is because we were spanked ourselves, and have raised multiple children with spanking, and we know from personal experience that that claim is BS .



in order to keep him safe. my three year old, for example, is scared of playing with knives, because I have assured him multiple times that if he plays with them, they can hurt him really bad. I am now trying to teach my younger son to fear that if he reaches for the toaster oven, his hand will get smacked; and by doing so I hope to teach him not to grab a hot oven without the more painful experience of grabbing a hot one. Telling someone who doesn't speak yet that grabbing a hot oven will overload his skin with the immediate application of heat resulting in severe burns isn't exactly effective parenting - it's setting your child up for failure.



that is incorrect, as I can attest from personal experience. my child does not fear me, he fears pain that can occur if he behaves poorly or stupidly. when I was a child, I didn't fear my parents, I feared the result of misbehavior.

You don't even know my child, and you're going to tell me what he thinks?

:lol:



um. you do realize that the only person in this conversation with zero perspective is you....?

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strawman.

You were spanked yourself so therefore you found it socially acceptable to spank your child.

So to keep your child safe you HAVE to hit him?

From personel experience, are you providing the EXACT SAME parental/pure pressure/mental experience for your child that your parents provided for you?

Again, I only provide a perspective, you merely have the perspective to insult it.

This thread should be renamed

PARENTING THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER

TurtleDude said:

This thread should be renamed

PARENTING THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER

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lmao, turtle you are hilarious sometimes. <3

Jryan said:

You have just meet the definition of trolling then fine sir. You have also not read about how spanking provides nothing for your child but fear. Why do you want to give your child fear? He does not associate the fear with running in-front of the car, he associates the fear with you... Not saying you are a fear monger-er or some sick ****, just someone who lacks perspective.

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I have this strange feeling my son would disagree with you. He's fifteen, 6'2" and built like a linebacker. I've been teaching him martial arts since he could walk, and since I'm getting old and out of shape he could probably beat my ass if he took a notion. He still obeys me out of respect, because he knows who loves him, he knows how hard it was being a single parent, and he knows that I raised him the way I did, not because it was easy but because I wanted him to have the best upbringing possible. He's said he plans to raise his own (as yet future potential) children the same way I raised him.

The latter is not simply generational repetition without thought. We've discussed how some people don't believe in spanking children; we've talked about examples of terrible bratty kids we both know who were not disciplined when young. He wants his future children to be well-behaved and to understand that there are limits to what you can get away with before society smacks you down hard.


He's very well adjusted, well-behaved but spirited with a huge sense of humor. Almost every teacher he's ever had has said they wished they had a classroom full just like him, as he is courteous, respectful and well-behaved. Other adults have remarked to me with awe at how mature he is, and how he conducts himself like a grown man. He has a steady girlfriend whom I approve of as she is neither a slut, booze-hound or druggie (I know her family AND her friends).

He's already decided what he's going to do for a living and how he is going to get educated in his chosen occupation.

When you've raised a child to near-adulthood with that level of success, then maybe you can criticize my methods. Until then you're an ivory-tower theorist who has read a few books.

If you'd read a few books on "wild edible plants" but had never gone out in the woods and put theory to the test, I'd probably be hesitant to take your word on whether some berry or root was safe to eat or not. Get it?

Jryan said:

All with apparent disregard to psychology.

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no. we tried the no-spanking route for a bit. it just didn't actually work.

When you've raised a child to near-adulthood with that level of success, then maybe you can criticize my methods. Until then you're an ivory-tower theorist who has read a few books.

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My parents didn't beat me and I am a well adjusted child.

cpwill said:

no. we tried the no-spanking route for a bit. it just didn't actually work.

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Maybe you just didn't try hard enough? I'm beginning to think questioning someones parenting is suicidal. Every parent is going to think they have raised their children the best.

Jryan said:

My parents didn't beat me and I am a well adjusted child.

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1. Spank, not beat.
2. That's one example, and we have only your word for it.
3. I said, in my first monologue about childrearing, that all children are different and that some do not require very many or any spankings, while others do.

Goshin said:

I have this strange feeling my son would disagree with you. He's fifteen, 6'2" and built like a linebacker. I've been teaching him martial arts since he could walk, and since I'm getting old and out of shape he could probably beat my ass if he took a notion. He still obeys me out of respect, because he knows who loves him, he knows how hard it was being a single parent, and he knows that I raised him the way I did, not because it was easy but because I wanted him to have the best upbringing possible. He's said he plans to raise his own (as yet future potential) children the same way I raised him.

The latter is not simply generational repetition without thought. We've discussed how some people don't believe in spanking children; we've talked about examples of terrible bratty kids we both know who were not disciplined when young. He wants his future children to be well-behaved and to understand that there are limits to what you can get away with before society smacks you down hard.


He's very well adjusted, well-behaved but spirited with a huge sense of humor. Almost every teacher he's ever had has said they wished they had a classroom full just like him, as he is courteous, respectful and well-behaved. Other adults have remarked to me with awe at how mature he is, and how he conducts himself like a grown man. He has a steady girlfriend whom I approve of as she is neither a slut, booze-hound or druggie (I know her family AND her friends).

He's already decided what he's going to do for a living and how he is going to get educated in his chosen occupation.

When you've raised a child to near-adulthood with that level of success, then maybe you can criticize my methods. Until then you're an ivory-tower theorist who has read a few books.

If you'd read a few books on "wild edible plants" but had never gone out in the woods and put theory to the test, I'd probably be hesitant to take your word on whether some berry or root was safe to eat or not. Get it?

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kudos - i'm impressed.


see, Jyran, I know parents like this. they are the people I go to for reading suggestions or advice. because they have actually been in the arena, and knows what actually works.


And so I think I would rather raise sons that will turn out as described above than spoiled savages who are convinced that authority cannot or will not harm them. My wife's biological mother raised two sons like that. One is in and out of juvie, and the other got out of jail last year. Because they thought they could do whatever they pleased, and authority had no hold over them.


Strangely, the younger one I think still feels that way. I guess the lessons we learn as children really are that defining - he thinks it's somehow abusive or unfair when the state punishes him for criminality. The older one, I think, is starting to get it. he wants to enlist, but with the military looking to severely cut personnel, i'm not sure he'll be able to get a waiver. which is a pity, the Marines would do great things for him.

Sig said:

I'm not so sure if thermobaric ammo should be made readily available for purchase by the civilian consumer.

When a Gun Is More Than a Gun

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Well damn - thought it sounded promising but apparently we're still in the **** so I guess that didn't do much

2. That's one example, and we have only your word for it.

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You are calling me a liar ?

And so I think I would rather raise sons that will turn out as described above than spoiled savages who are convinced that authority cannot or will not harm them. My wife's biological mother raised two sons like that. One is in and out of juvie, and the other got out of jail last year. Because they thought they could do whatever they pleased, and authority had no hold over them.

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Maybe the difference is I was born/raised liberal and you were born/raised conservative.

cpwill said:

no. we tried the no-spanking route for a bit. it just didn't actually work.

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I actually tried it until my son was 3. It was a disaster. He was immune to simple verbal correction, stone deaf to scoldings, fought time-outs like Mike Tyson and took loss-of-privileges or being ignored for bad behavior as an excuse to trash the house. He was a horrific brat at 3 1/2.... then I started whuppin' that ass... and by the time he was 5 he was a different kid, and a happier one.


Thing is, when done right it works. The two main things are consistency, and showing them twice as much love as you do discipline. But if the discipline just isn't there or isn't working, you get a brat.

It doesn't take a PhD to realize this, just two eyes and a brain and a little experience in the world.

Jryan said:

Maybe you just didn't try hard enough? I'm beginning to think questioning someones parenting is suicidal.

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generally, short of blatant major issues with the child, you would be correct to say that trying to tell someone their parenting is flawed without some kind of actual authority and experience backing you (and their permission or request for such advice) is indeed stupid. Because no matter how many books you read, children are each unique, and their parents are the expert on them. so you are advising the subject matter expert.

Every parent is going to think they have raised their children the best.

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no. but every parent will think that a non-parent presuming to tell them how to raise their own kids is ridiculous.

Goshin said:

I actually tried it until my son was 3. It was a disaster. He was immune to simple verbal correction, stone deaf to scoldings, fought time-outs like Mike Tyson and took loss-of-privileges or being ignored for bad behavior as an excuse to trash the house. He was a horrific brat at 3 1/2.... then I started whuppin' that ass... and by the time he was 5 he was a different kid, and a happier one.


Thing is, when done right it works. The two main things are consistency, and showing them twice as much love as you do discipline. But if the discipline just isn't there or isn't working, you get a brat.

It doesn't take a PhD to realize this, just two eyes and a brain and a little experience in the world.

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I gave my parents the finger merely on the principle that I had no idea what it meant. I thought it was a symbol for I love you (my sister told me this) and obviously it wasn't. I was grounded for 2 days. I think I was 10.

cpwill said:

generally, short of blatant major issues with the child, you would be correct to say that trying to tell someone their parenting is flawed without some kind of actual authority and experience backing you (and their permission or request for such advice) is indeed stupid. Because no matter how many books you read, children are each unique, and their parents are the expert on them. so you are advising the subject matter expert.



no. but every parent will think that a non-parent presuming to tell them how to raise their own kids is ridiculous.

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Thinking how this ammunition thread turned into a parenting thread. This is like a group of mountaneers discussing whether their sport entailed climbing uphill.

I do agree with you, but I still don't think that beating a child (and yes spanking IS beating) is the correct way to deal with their problems.

It doesn't take a PhD to realize this, just two eyes and a brain and a little experience in the world.

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There it is, the crack at me, the young-an. Didn't think you would sink that low. I honestly thought you had better respect for me than that.

Jryan said:

You are calling me a liar ?

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I would not do so unless I could prove you were. It was actually supposed to be more than half-joke.

Seriously though... YOU consider yourself well-behaved... would I? Maybe, how should I know? I don't know you IRL.

I'll take your word on it.... but see points 1 and 3.