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Dog owner responsibility

Should a dog owner be punished?

  • Total voters
    44
Pinkie said:
Give it up...I cannot be persuaded. I don't think pitts are suitable for pet ownership but if a person is foolish enough to do so, the owe a duty to the humans around them to make SURE that animal never injures anyone.

There are breeds of dogs and hybrids I would outlaw altogether -- pitts are one.
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I've owned two pitbulls. Both are incredibly sweet dogs that have never, and I mean *never*, snapped at a human. They go for cats, yes, but dogs or humans they simply love. Pitbulls have great temperaments as dogs go. If you want to ban dogs for having a predisposition for attacking humans, if I recall correctly, dachschunds and poodles would be the first to go, along with most of the yappy little toy breeds. Pitbulls were specifically bred to not attack humans - something which cannot be said of most other breeds.
 
lardbeetle said:
I've owned two pitbulls. Both are incredibly sweet dogs that have never, and I mean *never*, snapped at a human. They go for cats, yes, but dogs or humans they simply love. Pitbulls have great temperaments as dogs go. If you want to ban dogs for having a predisposition for attacking humans, if I recall correctly, dachschunds and poodles would be the first to go, along with most of the yappy little toy breeds. Pitbulls were specifically bred to not attack humans - something which cannot be said of most other breeds.
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It's not their disposition (though that can be an issues); it's their configuration. Few other dogs have the jaw strength of a pitt.

I'd like to see dog/wolf hybrids outlawed as well.
 
Pinkie said:
It's not their disposition (though that can be an issues); it's their configuration. Few other dogs have the jaw strength of a pitt.

I'd like to see dog/wolf hybrids outlawed as well.
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There has been more fatalities involving a huskies than a wolf hybrid? Heck there were more fatal dog attacks involving Labrador Retrievers than wolf-hybrid dogs. Do you want labs and huskies banned as well? By your logic those miniscule number of dog attacks justify banning millions of other other dogs.

List of fatal dog attacks in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Of course believe your silly wives tales and other myths about pit bulls.
Pit Bull Myths

"Pit Bulls have locking jaws." The jaws of the Pit Bull are functionally
the same as the jaws of any other breed, and this has been proven via
expert examination.

snip...

"Pit Bulls can hold on with their front teeth while chewing with their
back teeth." As stated above, the Pit Bull’s jaws are, functionally
speaking, the same as all other breeds.


snip...

“Pit Bulls have more bite pressure per square inch (PSI) than any
other breed.” This is absolutely false.

Tests that have been done comparing the bite pressure of several
breeds showed pressure PSI (per square inch) to be considerably lower
than some wild estimates that have been made. Testing has shown that
the domestic dog averages about 320 lbs of pressure per square inch.
Recently Dr. Brady Barr of National Geographic conducted a comparative
test between a Pit Bull, a Rottweiler, and a German Shepherd. The Pit
Bull had the LOWEST PSI OF THE THREE.


snip..

“The brains of Pit Bulls swell and cause them to go crazy”. Prior to the
boom in Pit Bull popularity, the Doberman Pinscher was rumored to suffer
from an affliction of the brain in which the skull became too small to
accommodate a dog’s grey matter. This would, according to the rumor,
cause the Doberman to go crazy, or “just snap” out of no where and
attack their owner. This rumor could never be quantified, and indeed had
no merit whatsoever. Now that the Doberman fad has run its course the
Pit Bull has inherited the swelling brain myth. It is no truer now than it
was during the Doberman’s fad days.

“Pit Bulls ‘turn’ on their owners.” Dogs, as a species, do not perform
behaviors “just because”. There are always reasons for behavior, and
when aggression becomes a problem the reasons can be such things as
improper handling, lack of socialization or training, a misreading of dog
behavior by the owner, or, rarely, disease. Aggression, when it presents
in pet dogs, follows specific patterns. First occur warning signs, then
more warning signs, and finally, when those signs are continually
ignored or misinterpreted, the dog resorts to using its teeth. When an
owner is startled by a sudden, aggressive outburst, it is because they
have been unaware of problems that were brewing. This is true of all
dogs, not just Pit Bulls. Pit Bulls, indeed no dogs, “turn” on their owners.
 
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They did not "allow" the dog to escape. The dog did so on its own.. So.. As long as the owner does everything it can to prevent the dogs from escaping then they have done what they should do.
 
Pinkie said:
IMO, if you own a dog whose breed is known to/capable of human deaths, then you should be STRICTLY liable for its control at all times.
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That would be any and all dogs. It is kinda like saying well you know if you bring a human into this world that can do some messed up stuff and you are gonne be held accountable for whatever that little human spawn does because well humans can and do kill each other.
 
What if...? said:
And on a side note. If a pit is attacking and its important enough to intervene, GET ITS FRONT FEET OFF THE GROUND. It is the difference between a bite and death to animals being attacked. Its the shake that kills. Watch Cesar on Dog Whisperer if you don't believe me. He does this.
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That's true for any dog. I was attacked by a Husky once and getting it's feet off the ground was part of the reason I escaped relatively unscathed.

Another thing to do when a dog has a hold of your arm (and it seems counter intuitive) is to actually push your arm deeper into the dog's mouth. It opens the jaws and can actually choke the dog.
 
Tucker Case said:
That's true for any dog. I was attacked by a Husky once and getting it's feet off the ground was part of the reason I escaped relatively unscathed.

Another thing to do when a dog has a hold of your arm (and it seems counter intuitive) is to actually push your arm deeper into the dog's mouth. It opens the jaws and can actually choke the dog.
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What you all mean by that? Do you pick up dog's the same way a child would if it was trying to dance with the dog, do you spread its legs apart or bring the feet together while lifting up?
 
jamesrage said:
What you all mean by that? Do you pick up dog's the same way a child would if it was trying to dance with the dog, do you spread its legs apart or bring the feet together while lifting up?
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Most people will actually bend over when attacked by a dog (presumably because the weight of the dog will pull them that direction), allowing it to get all four feet on the ground.

When I was grabbed on the arm by the husky, I shoved the arm deeper in it's mouth, used my other arm to grab behind it's head, and then lifted it off the ground by arching my back away from where it wanted me to go and by lifting it primarily with my other arm.

Lifting it exposed it's belly, which received some sharp and savage knees and kicks.
 
Kali said:
That would be any and all dogs. It is kinda like saying well you know if you bring a human into this world that can do some messed up stuff and you are gonne be held accountable for whatever that little human spawn does because well humans can and do kill each other.
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This is a silly answer. Fun, but silly.
 
evanescence said:
The reasoning? What are you talking about..? A little girl was ripped to pieces because someone wasn't responsible with their vicious dog. And now people actually blame the people who were attacked because they left a ****ing door open. It's preposterous. And people actually support that line of BS. What circumstances need to be made clear to you? It seems obvious to me that an owner of a dog is responsible for its actions. It's ridiculous that anyone has the nerve to argue otherwise.
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First of all, the first article gives little info on the attack itself.

Second, the question was based on that situation but was given as a general question, not just the specific incident.

In regards to the incident specifically, the dog should most definitely be put down, as it most likely was. There is little doubt now that the dog was too dangerous to be a pet, especially in a neighborhood with children. But it isn't because of the breed or the size of the dog but rather because of this incident. If there were other incidents before this one, not just comments on how aggressive/mean the neighbors think the dog was, but actual violent incidents in the past, then the owner should have taken more precautions to ensure the dog did not get loose.

Another thing here would involve whether anyone aggravated the dog, especially people near the house where the child was, before the attack. This is a thing anyone wanting to blame the owner for in any pet attack should keep in mind. You can't say the owner should have kept better control over a dog if someone else is aggravating, hitting, or taunting the dog in ways that a reasonable person could assume might cause a dog to attack.

I have had relatives who had their dog chained on their property, when a couple of neighbor kids went onto the property and were taunting and hitting the dog til the dog bit one of the boys. The dog got put down because of the incident although there is no doubt that he only attacked in defense.

There is a lot of reasoning that goes into determining what happened. There is the reason behind why a particular dog attacked. Was the dog taught to attack people? Was someone trying to aggravate the dog to attack? If so, who? Then there are questions about what the owner did to prevent the dog from hurting anyone and whether the dog had a history of aggressive behavior. Did the dog escape from the property/owner before? How high was the fence in relation to the dog? What was the fence made of? Was the dog secured behind the fence? What was the dog secured with? Had the dog attacked anyone before? If so, was it provoked/unprovoked, on the person's property/in public/on someone else's property? Is there any evidence to suggest that the owner purposely trained the dog to attack people, especially people who would not normally be viewed as a threat, or small animals (I could see a child being mistaken for a small animal if the dog was trained to hunt more than just specific animals).
 
Goshin said:
Pitt bulls are not inherently vicious. Most of them are friendly and sweet and very easygoing towards humans.... unless they've been taught to be otherwise. There are rare exceptions though... I had a half-Pitt that was a one-family-dog, he loved me and loved my son, and wanted to eat the rest of the world. I have no idea why he was like that, it wasn't my doing. Most of them, though, are good dogs. They were deliberately bred for aggression towards other dogs, and NOT towards humans, normally.

The real problem with Pitts is that a bad Pitt is like a cross between a wolf and a crocodile. They're very strong and have incredibly powerful jaws, and when they're stirred up they tend to attack with great determination. I was on the receiving end of a Pitt attack once, and I ended up having to kill the dog to stop him. I didn't want to, I love dogs, but he wouldn't stop trying to tear my throat out.

To know whether the owner deserves jail time, I'd have to know a few things;
1. Did he deliberately train the dog to be vicious?
2. What precautions did he take to try to keep the dog contained?
3. Were there any previous incidents where the dog had gotten loose and menaced or hurt someone?

If the answers are Yes, Very Little, and Yes....then I'd say that is enough negligence that he needs to do some time.
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I don't buy the "it's the owner, not the dog" argument

While PBs are very friendly with people, they do have a very strong "prey drive" (ie hunting instinct) When left alone, all sorts of movements and sounds can excite them. Squirrels running around, rustling leaves, in fact any sort of movement or sound or smells that remind them of the hunt. If they get excited enough, any dog can bite. For dogs, biting is a way to relieve stress. If a dog with a strong prey drive is left unattended outdoors, the sights, sounds and smells it encounters can excite its; prey drive to point beyond the dogs control. It gets to a point where the dog has to hunt.

Prey drive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Prey drive is the instinctive inclination of a carnivore to pursue and capture prey.

In dog training, prey drive can be used as an advantage because dogs with strong prey drive are also willing to pursue moving objects such as toys, which can then be used to encourage certain kinds of behavior, such as that of greyhound racing or the speed required in dog agility. The prey drive can be an important component of pet dog training, obedience training and schutzhund as well. Games such as fetch and tug-of-war, can be an effective motivator and reward for learning.

In all predators the prey drive follows an inevitable sequence: the search, the eye-stalk, the chase, the grab bite, and the kill bite. In wolves the prey drive is complete and balanced. In different breeds of dog certain of these five steps have been amplified or reduced by human-controlled selective breeding, for various purposes. The search aspect of the prey drive, for example, is very valuable in detection dogs such as bloodhounds and beagles. The eye-stalk is a strong component of the behaviors used by herding dogs, who find herding its own reward. The chase is seen most clearly in racing dogs, while the grab-bite and kill-bite are valuable in the training of terriers. In many breeds of dog, prey drive is so strong that the chance to satisfy the drive is its own reward, and extrinsic reinforcers are not required to compel the dog to perform the behaviour.
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nota bene said:
According to one report, the dog first threatened relatives standing in the driveway, and when they panicked and ran inside, the dog chased after them.

Pitbull owners stood back from attack on Ayen Chol, claim family | News.com.au

According to another, the homeowner was walking someone to the door. "The tragedy unfolded when a cousin, who owns the house, was walking a family friend to the door and the dog confronted them.

As they tried to run indoors, the pit bull attacked before setting upon the children who were watching television."

Ayen Chol, 4, killed in pit bull cross attack at St Albans | Herald Sun

I don't understand how people were walking to the door and trying to run back inside.
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WHen confronted with a viscious dog, moving away is one of the worst things one can do. It just excites the dog
 
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Chenoa said:
#16 and it took me 2 tries to find it.

Different article with a little info from neighbors

"Three of us were trying to revive the kid. We were trying to find a heart beat. There were a couple of beats initially but she was gone after that."
He said the owner of the dog had raced to the victim's home and dragged the animal home, before returning to the scene.
He said the dog's owner was "devastated" after the attack. The animal was later removed from the premises and was put down this afternoon.


Other neighbours said they had often heard the pit bull cross barking in the street, but few had seen the animal.

Anisah Mama, who lives next door to the house where the dog lives, said she had been scared in the past for her two children, aged nine and 13.
She had not seen the dog in the three years her family had been living in the home, but said they often heard barking. "Actually this dog is quite aggressive," she said.

"While the children play they hear the dog barking and they are scared sometimes. I said 'don't worry, he's inside'."
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PB's, like many other breeds, need a lot of exercise. If they don't get it, they develop problem behaviors. Excessive barking is one indication that a dog is not getting enough exercise.

The more I read about this case, the more I think these dog owners should be in jail
 
Due to original breeding purpose and subsequent inbreeding, PBs and dobermans are inherently unstable. No other breed has anywhere near the history of snapping (mentally) and attacking their owner and family. The ban on them in Miami is justified. Sure, a good owner can keep one and never have a problem, but most people are not ideal owners and it simply is not worth the risk given the average owner's training, education and ability.

Side note: if a dog bites my arm I will destroy its eyes. It ain't gonna shake crap after both its eyes are turned into gel by my fingers.
 
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ecofarm said:
Due to original breeding purpose and subsequent inbreeding, PBs and dobermans are inherently unstable. No other breed has anywhere near the history of snapping (mentally) and attacking their owner and family. The ban on them in Miami is justified. Sure, a good owner can keep one and never have a problem, but most people are not ideal owners and it simply is not worth the risk given the average owner's training, education and ability.

Side note: if a dog bites my arm I will destroy its eyes. It ain't gonna shake crap after both its eyes are turned into gel by my fingers.
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The original breeding was to fight other dogs, not attack people. The last thing a person who bred fighting dogs would want is to breed a bunch of powerful dogs that wanted to kill him

ANd dogfights take place in rings where the "fence" is no more than 2 feet high typically. If PB's were bred to attack humans, there'd be a lot more human fatalities at dogfights. Instead, if a fighting dog shows any sign of aggression towards humans at a dog fight, the owner takes it out back and shoots it immediately.

And since dogs typically bite and then shake, good luck trying to poke its eyes out
 
They're vicious because they're large terriers, all terriers are aggressive, and because of the size and power of them, when they bite it's worse than being bitten by a Jack Russel.
 
sangha said:
The original breeding was to fight other dogs, not attack people. The last thing a person who bred fighting dogs would want is to breed a bunch of powerful dogs that wanted to kill himANd dogfights take place in rings where the "fence" is no more than 2 feet high typically. If PB's were bred to attack humans, there'd be a lot more human fatalities at dogfights. Instead, if a fighting dog shows any sign of aggression towards humans at a dog fight, the owner takes it out back and shoots it immediately.And since dogs typically bite and then shake, good luck trying to poke its eyes out
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What are you, Michael Vick? My point is that they were breed for fighting and subsequent inbreeding has produced an unstable breed with great strength. Their ban (in various places) is justified. And don't worry about me defending myself against a dog, I'll be fine sweetie.
 
ecofarm said:
Due to original breeding purpose and subsequent inbreeding, PBs and dobermans are inherently unstable
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.

I would say very, very few dogs are inherently unstable irrespective of breed type. As has been pointed out a true PB should most definitely NOT show aggression to humans. A 'game-bred' Pitbull should show no sign of aggression when his handler has to apply medical attention (usually with next to no anesthetic or pain relief). The trouble with the American Pit bull is actually most are nothing like the original. Its gone away from the true characteristics and has morphed (with many out-crosses) into some grotesque 'big-heavily over muscled' machine.

No other breed has anywhere near the history of snapping (mentally) and attacking their owner and family. The ban on them in Miami is justified. Sure, a good owner can keep one and never have a problem, but most people are not ideal owners and it simply is not worth the risk given the average owner's training, education and ability.
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As you rightly say education is the key. Many owners buy into a breed not knowing the first thing about 'dogs' let alone breeds that have certain characteristics. I am a firm believer in 'horses for courses'. If you buy a Doberman' its far more inclined to have in its DNA traits conducive to guarding/protecting (not all but most). So to expect this new 8-week old bundle of fun to become a well behaved, obedient dog without the correct training is, in my opinion, to have a weapon with the safety catch broken.

As an owner of two American Bulldogs both weighing in at around 80pounds i know full well the obligation i am under. Fortunately my dogs not only are family pets/guardians but form an integral part of my hobby. I attend quite a few field trials entering them in activities ranging from 'Weight-pulling' to 'hardest hitting' (which is sleeve work).

Just thought i'd add a couple of pics

IMG_0218.jpg


IMG_0208.jpg


Paul
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my neighbor has a couple of pits and neither one of them has ever shown any signs of aggression, towards either other dogs or humans. they routine come into my yard to play with our dogs and in the 5-6 years he's had them there has never been a single fight. my younger kids have tried to ride them like a pony with no issues.

I, on the other hand, have a 2 inch scar on my right hand from where my friend's beagle bit me when I was 11.
 
ecofarm said:
What are you, Michael Vick? My point is that they were breed for fighting and subsequent inbreeding has produced an unstable breed with great strength. Their ban (in various places) is justified. And don't worry about me defending myself against a dog, I'll be fine sweetie.
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If you have a gun. I don't know of anything else that will bring down a pitbull in attack mode.
 
ecofarm said:
What are you, Michael Vick? My point is that they were breed for fighting and subsequent inbreeding has produced an unstable breed with great strength. Their ban (in various places) is justified. And don't worry about me defending myself against a dog, I'll be fine sweetie.
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No, I was a dog rescuer so I have a lot of experience with fighting dogs and PB's. And PB's, being a conglomeration of more than a dozen breeds, are less inbred than most of the dogs you'll find in most peoples homes. Contrary to your claims, they are known for being stable (ie loyal, friendly, calm, and intelligent) and there's no need to ban them. Like you claim about being able to fend off a PB, your claims are ignorant.
 
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nota bene said:
If you have a gun. I don't know of anything else that will bring down a pitbull in attack mode.
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The claim that he could wrangle with a PB and win by poking its' eyes out was the funniest thing I read in this thread.
 
I don't favor an outright ban. Just strict liability for the owner. If your dog is leashed in the yard and taunted by kids, where are YOU?

I think owning an animal large and powerful enough to kill a human carries with it some responsibility.
 
Pinkie said:
If your dog is leashed in the yard and taunted by kids, where are YOU?
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at work? not everyone lives off the govt handout

if kids are taunting a leashed dog in someone's yard...where are their parents?
 
ecofarm said:
Due to original breeding purpose and subsequent inbreeding, PBs and dobermans are inherently unstable. No other breed has anywhere near the history of snapping (mentally) and attacking their owner and family. The ban on them in Miami is justified. Sure, a good owner can keep one and never have a problem, but most people are not ideal owners and it simply is not worth the risk given the average owner's training, education and ability.

Side note: if a dog bites my arm I will destroy its eyes. It ain't gonna shake crap after both its eyes are turned into gel by my fingers.
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Care to back that up? The original breeding of pitbulls stipulated that a dog had to be able to be lifted bodily out of the fighting ring by a referee without so much as snapping. One incident of attacking a referee in a dogfight warranted euthanasia for the dog. Dog-human aggression got bred out, quickly. Today's pitbulls generally show a low level of inherent aggression towards humans when compared to other dogs, and are disproportionally represented in crimes due to the confounding factors of misreporting and overrepresentation among moronic dogfighting owners.

If you ban the pit bull, people wanting to get dogs to fight will will either go underground with their pitts or just get more aggressive breeds like the German Shepherd, Rottweiler, or Husky, who were not bred for fighting and will not handle the training as comparatively well as pitbulls do. Which is to way, they will be even worse than fight-trained pitts.
 
Pinkie said:
I don't favor an outright ban. Just strict liability for the owner. If your dog is leashed in the yard and taunted by kids, where are YOU?

I think owning an animal large and powerful enough to kill a human carries with it some responsibility.
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For one thing, dogs should *never* be tied up and left alone outside. It's breeds aggression. Owners who do that are just asking for trouble. That's why some locales have banned that practice

Regarding a ban, I not only favor fairly strict liability, I would be in favor of stricter licensing. Potential dog owners should be required to undergo some form of education about both dog care in general, as well as education about the traits of the breed that they are going to own. Even a small dog can kill (a very small person, like a baby) Unfortunately, with so many orphaned dogs, it's unlikely there will be any such requirements anytime soon
 
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