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Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

Did evolution leave all races with equal mental and physical competency?


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Prove it's racism. Prove I'm a black racist because I question the assumption that all races were left with equal overall intelligence.

read my above post.

the only way anyone can intelligently and honestly argue that one race may be intellectually inferior to another, is through a very thorough and complex system of testing thousands of students ALL from the SAME educational and economic backgrounds.

anything else, is crap.

has such a test been done yet?

no? then let us know when it happens.

and BTW, African-Americans are a VERY poor selection to represent the "African" race, as almost all African-Americans have some European & Native American lineage.
 
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You're taking my statement into a much broader context than I ever intended. My point is not that evolution left everything identical among various groups of people, but that the broad differences are insignificant. Without doubt there are some differences. Moreover, human populations are continuing to evolve.
You repeat this hollow claim of "insignificant".
Yet you partially quote a Meaty post in which I show it IS 'significant.

Moreover, it's not only statistically significant, it's Nationally/Ethnically significant, IQ and the Wealth of Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, and of course Personally significant. IQ Positively Correlated with Life outcome.
It doesn't get any More "significant" than that.
One need only glance at countries/continents as well as within our own to see confirmation.


donald said:
However when one gets to broadly defined categories e.g., intelligence, as was a subject of this poll/thread, the differences are insignificant. Mean differences in IQ among the races are not sustained when one considers high confidence levels e.g., 95%. That a flawed study on IQ differences, flawed on account of deficiencies in statistical sampling that make it unreliable as to whether the samples adequately reflect the populations they purport to represent, has been cited does not change that, even if IQ were a perfect indicator of intelligence. But it isn't. IQ explains a portion of intelligence and that portion is less than 100%. Moreover, only a portion of IQ is heritable.
GobbledeeGook.

donald said:
....are essentially equal in terms of "mental and physical competence (sic)." The differences among the broad groups of people cited for broad attributes listed are statistically insignificant.
I'm afraid not. Even allowing for the Fudgy/nebulous/meaningless "essentially", it's wrong and is spelled in in the numbers of Thousands of IQ studies and again Confirmed by Personal/Intra-country/National/Continental outcomes.
"Essentially" Would be useful in saying we're smarter than dogs, but Meaninglessly motivated PC for the purposes of this discussion of Intra-specie IQ.
 
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Yes folks, if you compare a truly random sample of IQ tests of blacks, Asians, and whites in the USA..it is likely you wil get results that suggests blacks are dumber than whites..and whites are dumber than Asians.

But that's because random testing does not take into account the higher percentages of single-family homes, poverty, poor education and other disadvantages that African Americans face.

The ONLY way one can argue that whites are smart than blacks..and Asians are smarter than whites..is by comparing the IQ exams of thousands of kids from each race, from the EXACT SAME socio-economic & educational status. It would also help to have their parents also have grown up in the same socio-economic status.

ONLY then, can you have a real good idea if any race may be genetically smarter than the others..or dumber.
 
You repat this hollow claim of "insignificant".
Yet you partially quote a Meaty post in which I show it IS 'significant.

No one here has provided even a single credible study that shows that human intelligence among the racial groups (question in the poll) is statistically significant. Differences in means do not mean that the differences are statistically significant. One needs the standard deviation and then the appropriate confidence level. No one has furnished such evidence. Without such evidence, the meat is not present.

That differences in mean IQ scores (just one measure that explains some of Intelligence) have been posted is incomplete information. That one has repeatedly cited the flawed Jansen study that purports to a conclusion despite sampling problems does not furnish that data. That numerous Wiki links have been provided does not furnish that data--Wiki is not peer-reviewed for starters. That some have swapped very narrow, highly-specific areas of difference as a false proxy for claiming statistically significant differences in intelligence (not IQ, but intelligence) exist for the various racial groups proves nothing. Incomplete data and junk science don't cut it.

Since you seem so confident in statistically significant--and statistical significance is not the same thing as differences among means--in intelligence, please post a data from a widely-accepted study showing the 95% confidence intervals for various measures of intelligence (not just IQ, a test that explains only a portion of it, but enough measures to explain most of intelligence) by racial group. If every one has a difference that is statistically significant, then one can make the case. To date, no credible work has been published to support such a claim.

Anything else, despite the insults some are throwing around, is wrong.
 
Thunder, is there any empirical proof to show that evolution left all races with equal, overall intelligence? You say it's so difficult to prove that there isn't equality, yet then you assume that evolution left it all equal. Absence of proof is not proof of absence, and there may not even be an absence. To say that one side does not have any proof, according to you, does not in itself merit that you must believe the other side as true. That said, there can be no hatred or racism for asking such questions... or perhaps it is in the eye of the beholder?
 
Yes folks, if you compare a truly random sample of IQ tests of blacks, Asians, and whites in the USA..it is likely you wil get results that suggests blacks are dumber than whites..and whites are dumber than Asians.

But that's because random testing does not take into account the higher percentages of single-family homes, poverty, poor education and other disadvantages that African Americans face.


The ONLY way one can argue that whites are smart than blacks..and Asians are smarter than whites..is by comparing the IQ exams of thousands of kids from each race, from the EXACT SAME socio-economic & educational status. It would also help to have their parents also have grown up in the same socio-economic status.

ONLY then, can you have a real good idea if any race may be genetically smarter than the others..or dumber.
You haven't read the string- just another Ridiculous post

IQ researchers are OF COURSE aware of bias issues and addressed them.
Yeah Thunder, the Global Climate researchers too... just go out in the Summer- so assume it's warming .. right?
Unbelievable.

Far from "Random" they have not only factored in socio-economic factors they have done Trans-racial adoption studies to take out rearing as well as economics.
(and tested races on different continents in different economic situations, The Gaps Remain)

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls...nd-physical-competence-14.html#post1059799904

I KNOW facts will never change your mind - Political Stance (or Volvo/Rolex politics) are just people's self-identity.
You can predict, in great majority, what someone's stance will be on issues like this from their previous politics Even though this is a Different issue that requires/Should require Independent/objective thinking.
One of the problems with our Country/World today.
 
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If I take a random sampling of 500 black students and 500 white students and tested them, would I be surprised that the whites score higher? Not at all. I'd bet they would. Not because they are evolutionarily superior though.
 
Yes folks, if you compare a truly random sample of IQ tests of blacks, Asians, and whites in the USA..it is likely you wil get results that suggests blacks are dumber than whites..and whites are dumber than Asians.

But that's because random testing does not take into account the higher percentages of single-family homes, poverty, poor education and other disadvantages that African Americans face.

The ONLY way one can argue that whites are smart than blacks..and Asians are smarter than whites..is by comparing the IQ exams of thousands of kids from each race, from the EXACT SAME socio-economic & educational status. It would also help to have their parents also have grown up in the same socio-economic status.

ONLY then, can you have a real good idea if any race may be genetically smarter than the others..or dumber.

I agree that many findings are due to those factors .. however, I am wondering what you think about the adoption studies that were mentioned earlier? Someone posted pieces of an article that seemed hard to argue with - if there is evidence that that study was not done properly or if there are other adoption studies with findings that run contrary to the assertion, please share them as I am more interested in learning what studies are out there, than taking a side in the argument. In one of my previous posts I explained my position regarding the issue.
 
Does anyone here consider James D. Watson, and his work? I think he's a brilliant scientist sequestered by the whims of an ignorant and politically correct society.
 
That differences in mean IQ scores (just one measure that explains some of Intelligence) have been posted is incomplete information. That one has repeatedly cited the flawed Jansen study that purports to a conclusion despite sampling problems does not furnish that data. That numerous Wiki links have been provided does not furnish that data--Wiki is not peer-reviewed for starters. That some have swapped very narrow, highly-specific areas of difference as a false proxy for claiming statistically significant differences in intelligence (not IQ, but intelligence) exist for the various racial groups proves nothing. Incomplete data and junk science don't cut it.

This is a good point, significant differences on IQ does not mean one group is "dumber" than another group; instead, it just means that they are better at taking that specific intelligence measure (i.e. the IQ test). I agree that this does not show the whole story, only part of it.
 
Does anyone here consider James D. Watson, and his work? I think he's a brilliant scientist sequestered by the whims of an ignorant and politically correct society.

got any studies of racial intelligence that follow the requirements I mentioned?

or are they all "random".
 
Does anyone here consider James D. Watson, and his work? I think he's a brilliant scientist sequestered by the whims of an ignorant and politically correct society.
Why do you like him? Is it because he's so ~edgy~?
 
Thunder, is there any empirical proof to show that evolution left all races with equal, overall intelligence? You say it's so difficult to prove that there isn't equality, yet then you assume that evolution left it all equal. Absence of proof is not proof of absence, and there may not even be an absence. To say that one side does not have any proof, according to you, does not in itself merit that you must believe the other side as true. That said, there can be no hatred or racism for asking such questions... or perhaps it is in the eye of the beholder?
Thunder, is this going to be ignored?
 
If I take a random sampling of 500 black students and 500 white students and tested them, would I be surprised that the whites score higher? Not at all. I'd bet they would. Not because they are evolutionarily superior though.

Yes a test like that would show that IQ is higher; but the findings are confounded by socioeconomic class - what is better is an adoption study (which someone has already posted evidence of .. see above posts on this page or the previous one) - even then, if all that was tested were IQ, it would have its shortcomings as there are more than one intelligence tests (as we've mentioned)
 
can someone please post a link to the actual adoption study?

if 1,000 black babies were adopted at birth by white upper middle-class parents, and yet scored lower than their white counterparts on IQ tests, that would be interesting.

i would love to see such a study.

EDIT: I personally believe that African-American culture is infected by a disease called "self-destruction" & "self-regression". They actually encourage others NOT to succeed educationally & intellectually. I have seen it, heard it, and experienced it in my public school years in NYC.

I believe this cultural phenomenon is responsible for these lower IQ scores.
 
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Evolution didn't create humanity :) So no.
 
Why do you like him? Is it because he's so ~edgy~?
Probably because, unlike us, he has a Nobel Prize for discovering DNA, and his other contributions. He has a bit more experience.
 
this links me to the top of the last page of the thread.

Interesting .. it did not do that when I clicked on it .. wierd

Anyway .. I'll just quote mbig .. see below:


Race differences in average IQ are Largely Genetic
Medical Research News
26-Apr-2005

A 60-page review of the scientific evidence, some based on state-of-the-art magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) of brain size, has concluded that race differences in average IQ are largely genetic.

The lead article in the June 2005 issue of Psychology, Public Policy and Law, a journal of the American Psychological Association, examined 10 categories of research evidence from around the world to contrast "a hereditarian model (50% genetic-50% cultural) and a culture-only model (0% genetic-100% cultural)."

The paper, "Thirty Years of Research on Race Differences in Cognitive Ability," by J. Philippe Rushton of the University of Western Ontario and Arthur R. Jensen of the University of California at Berkeley, appeared with a positive commentary by Linda Gottfredson of the University of Delaware, three critical ones (by Robert Sternberg of Yale University, Richard Nisbett of the University of Michigan, and Lisa Suzuki & Joshua Aronson of New York University), and the authors' reply.

"Neither the existence nor the size of race differences in IQ are a matter of dispute, only their cause," write the authors. The Black-White difference has been found consistently from the time of the massive World War I Army testing of 90 years ago to a massive study of over 6 million corporate, military, and higher-education test-takers in 2001.

"Race differences show up by 3 years of age, even AFTER matching on maternal education and other variables," said Rushton. "Therefore they CANNOT be due to poor education since this has not yet begun to exert an effect. That's why Jensen and I looked at the genetic hypothesis in detail. We examined 10 categories of evidence."

1. The Worldwide Pattern of IQ Scores. East Asians average higher on IQ tests than Whites, Both in the U. S. and in Asia, even though IQ tests were developed for use in the Euro-American culture. Around the world, the average IQ for East Asians centers around 106; for Whites, about 100; and for Blacks about 85 in the U.S. and 70 in sub-Saharan Africa.
[.....]
3. The Gene-Environment Architecture of IQ is the Same in all Races, and Race Differences are Most Pronounced on More Heritable Abilities. Studies of Black, White, and East Asian twins, for example, show the heritability of IQ is 50% or higher in all races.

4. Brain Size Differences. Studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) find a correlation of brain size with IQ of about 0.40. Larger brains contain more neurons and synapses and process information faster. Race differences in brain size are present at birth. By adulthood, East Asians average 1 cubic inch more cranial capacity than Whites who average 5 cubic inches more than Blacks.

5. Trans-Racial Adoption Studies. Race differences in IQ Remain following adoption by White middle class parents. East Asians grow to average higher IQs than Whites while Blacks score lower. The Minnesota Trans-Racial Adoption Study followed children to age 17 and found race differences were even greater than at age 7: White children, 106; Mixed-Race children, 99; and Black children, 89.

6. Racial Admixture Studies. Black children with lighter skin, for example, average higher IQ scores. In South Africa, the IQ of the mixed-race "Colored" population averages 85, intermediate to the African 70 and White 100.
[.............]

I have yet to check if this is a peer reviewed article (it may not be as most researchers and achademics would not want to touch the subject with a 50 ft pole) ..
 
Yes a test like that would show that IQ is higher; but the findings are confounded by socioeconomic class - what is better is an adoption study (which someone has already posted evidence of .. see above posts on this page or the previous one) - even then, if all that was tested were IQ, it would have its shortcomings as there are more than one intelligence tests (as we've mentioned)
Even an adoption study would add the new variable of the effects of adoption. Intelligence tests, IQ or otherwise, are very difficult to use as objective measurements of intelligence and mental capacity.
 
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The polling question had nothing to do with narrow, specific areas where significant differences exist. It dealt with very broad attributes (mental and physical "competence"). A bait-and-switch to the very specific issue of lactose maldigestion proves nothing, absolutely nothing, with respect to the broad questions raised in the poll. No one in this thread has argued that human populations are identical. Therefore, the existence of differences in narrow, highly-specific areas is irrelevant to the broader question.

Evidence abounds which invalidates your liberal creationist assumption that all of humanity has an identical intelligence profile. There is absolutely no scientific basis upon which we should presume that some creationist nonsense is in play within the human species. The quick rise and sweep of lactose tolerance points to how quickly an advantage which is used within its environment can spread through a population.

The evidence in support of variance in intelligence is so damn broad it's amazing to behold and all of the different lines of evidence reinforce one another and all of the extremist environmentalist determinist explanations are not able to account for the variance.
 
Probably because, unlike us, he has a Nobel Prize for discovering DNA, and his other contributions. He has a bit more experience.
There are plenty of people with Nobel Prizes for important scientific discoveries, why not pick them? What's so special about Mr. Watson?
 
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