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Should we legalize sexual freedom?

Should we legalize all sex between consenting adults?

  • Yes

    Votes: 32 78.0%

  • No

    Votes: 9 22.0%
  • Total voters
    41
Sigh. The stupid arguments when it comes to homosexuality will never go away it seems....

dixiesolutions said:
Homosexuality is wrong and should be classified as a criminal act.
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What about it specifically should be considered criminal and in any way falls under the perview of what the government can and cannot legislate against?

It is Un-Normal.
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So is red hair, left handedness, enjoyment of Anime, or voting (the majority of American's don't do it).

Shall we criminalize all those things since they're "un-normal" as well?

It is a Mental and Health Sickness that needs to be addresed and delt with.
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Except for the people who actually make a career of studying Mental Sickness state the exact opposite. Strange.

Have we forgotten about the Aides Desease?....Or has it been just swept under the rug?
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Nope. Aids exists, not swept under the rug, not forgotten. What's it got to do with homosexuals. A gay person having sex with someone with HIV is not inherently more likely to get aids then a straight person having sex with someone with HIV. Last I checked there is no credible research suggesting being homosexual makes one inherently more suseptible to AIDS.

Todays society has made Homosexuality part of the norm, not realizing the severe problem it will have in future society.
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Actually, society hasn't got close to making Homosexuality part of the norm. What it has however is largely made it something that is not scorned.
 
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I think we should legalize those things you mentioned with the exception of sibling and/or parent/child sexual relations. Same sex relations amongst consenting adults should be considered in the same way as opposite relations. The only difference in the two relations is the sexes of those involved. Prostitution should be legalized and heavily regulated so that we can try to help those involved stay as safe as possible.

I have explained before that I believe that most sibling relations begin when at least one of them was not of consenting age and involves undue influence and/or violence/threats of violence, at least to initiate the relationship. And it can remain well hidden within the family, even from the family in many cases. Older brother sexual abuse is believed to be more prevalent than father/stepfather sexual abuse, which is the most reported form.

I will put in the caveat though, that siblings who did not know each other til late teens or later should be an exception to this. While I still believe that it is bad for them to have children, there is little chance of undue influence if they didn't know each other til after they are considered old enough to legally consent. And I have no issue with cousins getting together, although I would never do it myself. Most cousins are not raised together like my family, as if they are siblings. In many families now days distant relatives, including cousins, only see each other maybe once every couple of years or so. Even if closer, it is not likely that to expect cousins to develop the same bonds that come from being siblings. And, unless it is multigenerational, cousins procreating does not significantly increase the chance of problems, including mental deficiencies, behavioral issues, genetic defects, or other problems, in offspring.
 
Amsterdam is a good example of why we should not legalize prostitution. It contributes to organized crime, drug trafficking, international slavery and child trafficking
Prostitution in the Netherlands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most prostitutes are estimated to be foreigners.

In the 1970s, the majority of foreign prostitutes were from Thailand and the Philippines, in the 1980s from Latin America and the Caribbean. After the fall of the Berlin Wall, many prostitutes came from Central and Eastern Europe. No more than one third were Dutch nationals, the remainder representing 44 nationalities. The majority were from the Dominican Republic, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Romania and Poland. [4]

An article written by Marie-Victoire Louis in Le Monde diplomatique in 1997, claimed that 80% of prostitutes in Amsterdam were foreigners and 70% had no immigration papers (but did not quote the source). [5]

In 2000, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs estimated that approximately 32% of all prostitutes were Dutch, 22% were Latin American, 19% were Eastern European, 13% were African , 6% came from other countries from the European Union (aside from the Netherlands), 5% came from Northern Africa and 3% were Asian.[citation needed]

In 2008, Karina Schaapman, a former prostitute and former member of the Amsterdam city council, produced a report about the Amsterdam sex trade. She offered the police a face book with 80 "violent pimps", of whom only three were Dutch-born. She said that more than 75% of Amsterdam's 8,000 to 11,000 prostitutes were from Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia.[6][7]

A study released by TAMPEP in 2009 put the number of migrant prostitutes at 60% (a decrease from 70% in 2006), originating from: Central Europe (EU) 40%, Latin America 20%, Western Europe 12%, Eastern Europe (non-EU) 8%, Africa 8%, Balkans 4%, Asia 4%, Baltic states 3% (estimates for 2008).[8]
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When the Dutch government legalized prostitution in 2000, it was to protect the women by giving them work permits, but authorities now fear that this business is out of control: "We’ve realized this is no longer about small-scale entrepreneurs, but that big crime organizations are involved here in trafficking women, drugs, killings and other criminal activities", said Job Cohen, the former mayor of Amsterdam.[6] Recently, officials have noticed an increase in violence centered on this irregular industry, and have blamed this increase on the illegal immigration of individuals into Amsterdam to participate in the sex industry: "The guys from Eastern Europe bring in young and frightened women; they threaten them and beat them", said a resident of De Wallen.[6] Prostitution has remained connected to criminal activities, which has led the authorities to take several measures, including detailed plans to help the prostitutes quit the sex trade and find other professions.[17]

In response to the problems associated with the involvement of organized crime into the sex trade, the Dutch government has decided to close numerous prostitution businesses. Concerned about organized crime, money laundering and human trafficking, Amsterdam officials under Mayor Cohen denied the license renewals of about 30 brothels in the Amsterdam red light district De Wallen in 2006; the brothel owners appealed. To counter negative news reports, the district organized an open house day in 2007 and a statue to an unknown sex worker was unveiled, "intended to honor those employed in the industry world-wide."[18] In September 2007 it was announced that the city of Amsterdam was buying several buildings in the red light district from Charles Geerts in order to close about a third of the windows.[19]
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The Netherlands is listed by the UNODC as a top destination for victims of human trafficking.[22] Countries that are major sources of trafficked persons include Thailand, China, Nigeria, Albania, Bulgaria, Belarus, Moldova, Ukraine,[22] Sierra Leone, and Romania.[23]

Currently, human trafficking in the Netherlands is on the rise, according to figures obtained from the National Centre against Human Trafficking. The report shows a substantial increase in the number of victims from Hungary and China. There were 809 registered victims of human trafficking in 2008, 763 were women and at least 60 percent of them were forced to work in the sex industry.[24] [25]

Within the Netherlands, victims are often recruited by so called "loverboys" – men who seduce young Dutch women and girls and later coerce them into prostitution. The phenomenon was highlighted in 2008 by Maria Mosterd, who published a book about her ordeal as the 12-year-old victim of a loverboy.[26] The truthfulness of this book is disputed, and was the subject of an investigative journalism report. [27]

Many victims of human trafficking are led to believe by organized criminals that they are being offered work in hotels or restaurants or in child care and are forced into prostitution with the threat or actual use of violence. Estimates of the number of victims vary from 1000 to 7000 on a yearly basis. Most police investigations on human trafficking concern legal sex businesses. All sectors of prostitution are well represented in these investigations, but particularly the window brothels are overrepresented. [28] [29] [30]

At the end of 2008, a gang of six people were sentenced to prison terms of eight months to 7½ years in what prosecutors said was the worst case of human trafficking ever brought to trial in the Netherlands. The case involved more than 100 female victims, violently forced to work in prostitution.[31] In December 2009, two Nigerian men were sentenced to 4 and 4½ years in prison for having smuggled 140 Nigerian women aged 16–23 into the Netherlands. The women were made to apply for asylum and then disappeared from asylum centers, to work as prostitutes in surrounding countries. The men were said to have used "voodoo" curses on the women to prevent escape and enforce payment of debts.[32]
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sangha said:
Amsterdam is a good example of why we should not legalize prostitution. It contributes to organized crime, drug trafficking, international slavery and child trafficking
Prostitution in the Netherlands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Or we figure out what they are doing wrong, and try to ensure that we don't repeat that. We have prostitution rings in this country that running illegally, both under harsh, violent control, as described above, and as if it were a legitimate business. Maybe we should look at ways to both legalize it and ensure that it is a safe institution.
 
roguenuke said:
Or we figure out what they are doing wrong, and try to ensure that we don't repeat that. We have prostitution rings in this country that running illegally, both under harsh, violent control, as described above, and as if it were a legitimate business. Maybe we should look at ways to both legalize it and ensure that it is a safe institution.
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There doesn't seem to be a way to safely regulate it as long. As long as there is poverty in the world, there will be people who exploit others with promises of gainful employment and then force them into sexual servitude. IMO, there would never be enough people (to keep up with demand) who freely choose to sell their bodies for money so there will always be an incentive to force others to do it.
 
sangha said:
There doesn't seem to be a way to safely regulate it as long. As long as there is poverty in the world, there will be people who exploit others with promises of gainful employment and then force them into sexual servitude. IMO, there would never be enough people (to keep up with demand) who freely choose to sell their bodies for money so there will always be an incentive to force others to do it.
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We need to try something. Keeping it illegal is not working and we still have lots of women being exploited and forced into sexual servitude, even in this country. Legalizing and regulating it at least gives those who are being forced into it a chance to contact others, especially authorities, without facing criminal penalties of any kind, especially if they weren't initially forced to sell sex.
 
roguenuke said:
We need to try something. Keeping it illegal is not working and we still have lots of women being exploited and forced into sexual servitude, even in this country. Legalizing and regulating it at least gives those who are being forced into it a chance to contact others, especially authorities, without facing criminal penalties of any kind, especially if they weren't initially forced to sell sex.
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"We need to try something" is just about the worst justification one can find for anything.

Keeping murder illegal is not working, as demonstrated by the fact that people are still murdering others. Maybe we should legalize murder and regulate it?
 
sangha said:
"We need to try something" is just about the worst justification one can find for anything.

Keeping murder illegal is not working, as demonstrated by the fact that people are still murdering others. Maybe we should legalize murder and regulate it?
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Not the same thing. Murder is always taking away another person's life without their consent. If there was known consent, it would be called "assisted suicide".

Prostitution, on the other hand, can most certainly involve consenting parties who are not doing anything that other people are not doing. The only difference being that those others who are doing the activity are not doing it purely as a business transaction. Sex takes place between consenting adults all the time, yet the only time it is illegal is if it is done so in exchange for money. A person can buy another person a "gift" and get sex for it, fully believing that sex is expected in exchange for that "gift", but as long as the transaction doesn't involve an actual oral declaration of that expectation, it is completely legal.

It should be legalized for more than just "keeping it illegal isn't working", but that doesn't change the truth to my statement.
 
roguenuke said:
Not the same thing. Murder is always taking away another person's life without their consent. If there was known consent, it would be called "assisted suicide".

Prostitution, on the other hand, can most certainly involve consenting parties who are not doing anything that other people are not doing. The only difference being that those others who are doing the activity are not doing it purely as a business transaction. Sex takes place between consenting adults all the time, yet the only time it is illegal is if it is done so in exchange for money. A person can buy another person a "gift" and get sex for it, fully believing that sex is expected in exchange for that "gift", but as long as the transaction doesn't involve an actual oral declaration of that expectation, it is completely legal.

It should be legalized for more than just "keeping it illegal isn't working", but that doesn't change the truth to my statement.
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Your facts are wrong. People can be convicted of prostitution even if there is not oral declaration. Also, you can give an organ to another (just as you can give sex to them) but you can't sell it to them. The govt has a right to regulate economic transactions.

We do need to do more about prostitution, but legalizing it isn't doing more; it's doing less.
 
sangha said:
Your facts are wrong. People can be convicted of prostitution even if there is not oral declaration. Also, you can give an organ to another (just as you can give sex to them) but you can't sell it to them. The govt has a right to regulate economic transactions.

We do need to do more about prostitution, but legalizing it isn't doing more; it's doing less.
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There is nothing inherently wrong with prostitution. If a person wants to charge money to people who are willing to pay to have sex, it should be legal. The government should not be regulating economic transaction just for the purpose of regulating sex.

The problems that come from legalizing it are the same problems that are there when it is illegal, except that with it being legal, the prostitutes are able to actually get help for them, instead of having to worry about being charged with something themselves.
 
roguenuke said:
There is nothing inherently wrong with prostitution. If a person wants to charge money to people who are willing to pay to have sex, it should be legal. The government should not be regulating economic transaction just for the purpose of regulating sex.

The problems that come from legalizing it are the same problems that are there when it is illegal, except that with it being legal, the prostitutes are able to actually get help for them, instead of having to worry about being charged with something themselves.
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Prostitution encourages organized crime, drug trafficking, child trafficking and the oppression of poor people
 
sangha said:
Prostitution encourages organized crime, drug trafficking, child trafficking and the oppression of poor people
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That stuff already exists. It is like saying "comprehensive sex education encourages teens to have sex". It is a ridiculous belief.

There are places that make legal prostitution work. And there are things that can be done to help prevent those things from happening. Registering and licensing all prostitutes. In order to get a license, a person must submit to drug tests and STD exams on some regular basis. An age restriction on licenses that requires proof. Actually check out applications for immigrants applying for visas into this country who are seeking asylum and/or work visa to ensure they are legitimately deserved and likely not going to become victims of sex traders. Regular checks on establishments that are licensed as brothels, etc. to help ensure that prostitutes are not being treated bad and able to get assistance right away for violence against them or anything else they need. Support for all prostitutes to ensure that they are given help when needed, whether for abuse, legal needs, pregnancy, or to get another job.
 
sangha said:
There doesn't seem to be a way to safely regulate it as long. As long as there is poverty in the world, there will be people who exploit others with promises of gainful employment and then force them into sexual servitude. IMO, there would never be enough people (to keep up with demand) who freely choose to sell their bodies for money so there will always be an incentive to force others to do it.
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Uhm you mean just like it does NOW? but after its legalized it would do less because it would be regulated.

Legalizing it will make it legal and safer.
 
roguenuke said:
That stuff already exists. It is like saying "comprehensive sex education encourages teens to have sex". It is a ridiculous belief.

There are places that make legal prostitution work. And there are things that can be done to help prevent those things from happening. Registering and licensing all prostitutes. In order to get a license, a person must submit to drug tests and STD exams on some regular basis. An age restriction on licenses that requires proof. Actually check out applications for immigrants applying for visas into this country who are seeking asylum and/or work visa to ensure they are legitimately deserved and likely not going to become victims of sex traders. Regular checks on establishments that are licensed as brothels, etc. to help ensure that prostitutes are not being treated bad and able to get assistance right away for violence against them or anything else they need. Support for all prostitutes to ensure that they are given help when needed, whether for abuse, legal needs, pregnancy, or to get another job.
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What places make legalized prostitution work?
 
O_Guru said:
Uhm you mean just like it does NOW? but after its legalized it would do less because it would be regulated.

Legalizing it will make it legal and safer.
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Saying that doesn't make it true, no matter how many times you repeat it. Amsterdams experience demonstrates the faulty logic, and they regulate it and do all the other things that the "legalize it" crowd say we should do
 
sangha said:
Saying that doesn't make it true, no matter how many times you repeat it. Amsterdam experience demonstrates the faulty logic, and they regulate it and do all the other things that the "legalize it" crowd say we should do
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I think its 100% true
those things you say HAPPEN RIGHT NOW.

Making it legal would in fact make those things happen less because it would be regulated like other business. lol

Not AS easy to make it mob run, or have minors or salves when the government is coming in doing inspections for code and health reasons.

also Amsterdam is not the USA I couldn't care less what they are doing over there. If its regulated by code and health (government basically) mob participation, slaves and minor abuse is NOT going to go up. This isnt TV.

Would they still happen in amounts? of course nothing works perfect but here in AMERICA it would be less not more.

To even suggest the regulated prostitution industry would start using slaves and minors at out of control rates here in the US is nonsense and fiction.
 
Centrist77 said:
I think its 100% true
those things you say HAPPEN RIGHT NOW.

Making it legal would in fact make those things happen less because it would be regulated like other business. lol

Not AS easy to make it mob run, or have minors or salves when the government is coming in doing inspections for code and health reasons.

also Amsterdam is not the USA I couldn't care less what they are doing over there. If its regulated by code and health (government basically) mob participation, slaves and minor abuse is NOT going to go up. This isnt TV.

Would they still happen in amounts? of course nothing works perfect but here in AMERICA it would be less not more.

To even suggest the regulated prostitution industry would start using slaves and minors at out of control rates here in the US is nonsense and fiction.
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So you say. I'd like to see some evidence and some line of reasoning that supports your claims.
 
Centrist77 said:
I think its 100% true
those things you say HAPPEN RIGHT NOW.

Making it legal would in fact make those things happen less because it would be regulated like other business. lol

Not AS easy to make it mob run, or have minors or salves when the government is coming in doing inspections for code and health reasons.

also Amsterdam is not the USA I couldn't care less what they are doing over there. If its regulated by code and health (government basically) mob participation, slaves and minor abuse is NOT going to go up. This isnt TV.

Would they still happen in amounts? of course nothing works perfect but here in AMERICA it would be less not more.

To even suggest the regulated prostitution industry would start using slaves and minors at out of control rates here in the US is nonsense and fiction.
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amen "brother"
 
sangha said:
Saying that doesn't make it true, no matter how many times you repeat it. Amsterdams experience demonstrates the faulty logic, and they regulate it and do all the other things that the "legalize it" crowd say we should do
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I only said it once? lol
 
sangha said:
So you say. I'd like to see some evidence and some line of reasoning that supports your claims.
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common sense about AMERICA
is there some other thing in recent times that got worse in the way you claim in AMERICA once it became legal?

Alcohol comes to mine? was it better (crime wise, minors drinking, dangerous mixes, or watered down mixes, murders etc) while it was illegal or legal?

in 2011 its nonsense to think america all of a sudden would allow SLAVES (riiiiight) to run rampant

MINORS to become sex slaves and abused.

Megans law comes to mine, megans website comes to mine
how we lock people up people for even finding child porn PICTURES on thier hard drive that are 5 years old come to mind
how a 17yr old was made to register as a sex offender because he got PUBLICLY caught send pictures of his junk to his 16 year old girlfriend and they tried to charge him with distribution of child porn.

yep Im convinced AMERICA would just stop all that and let mass slavery back in its doors and turn a blind eye to sex trafficking large amounts of minors WHILE ITS REGULATED. Man the logic is just adding up. Give me a break. Like I said this isnt a movie.

:lamo
 
sangha said:
Prostitution encourages organized crime, drug trafficking, child trafficking and the oppression of poor people
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Sangha is making a good argument here.

In a free marketplace for prostitution the market forces of supply meeting demand should clear at a certain price. If the price of a 1 hour sex encounter was $3,000 then a lot of women would be enticed into the field and they could satisfy the men who could afford their services and there would be no unmet "legal" demand.

The problem is about all of the demand for services under $3,000. How about the men who only want to pay $100? At this price level there are not enough women in society who freely decide to sell their services.

So what happens in a legal market where there is unmet demand for services at price points below the legal market price?

Look at other markets for the answer. What happens to the cigarette market when a state raises the tobacco tax through the roof? The black market steps up and fills the demand for lower priced cigarettes. How do they do this? They hi-jack trailers of product, they bribe, they steal, they sell through black market dealers, etc.

Look at illegal aliens. What happens when legal wages are too high? Employers seek out illegals and pay them below legal wages. A black market develops.

So back to prostitution. While cigarette black marketers get their product by hi-jacking trailers or sourcing via Indian Bands, where do pimps get their "product" when there are not enough women freely offering their services at a given price point?
 
Centrist77 said:
common sense about AMERICA
is there some other thing in recent times that got worse in the way you claim in AMERICA once it became legal?

Alcohol comes to mine? was it better (crime wise, minors drinking, dangerous mixes, or watered down mixes, murders etc) while it was illegal or legal?

in 2011 its nonsense to think america all of a sudden would allow SLAVES (riiiiight) to run rampant

MINORS to become sex slaves and abused.

Megans law comes to mine, megans website comes to mine
how we lock people up people for even finding child porn PICTURES on thier hard drive that are 5 years old come to mind
how a 17yr old was made to register as a sex offender because he got PUBLICLY caught send pictures of his junk to his 16 year old girlfriend and they tried to charge him with distribution of child porn.

yep Im convinced AMERICA would just stop all that and let mass slavery back in its doors and turn a blind eye to sex trafficking large amounts of minors WHILE ITS REGULATED. Man the logic is just adding up. Give me a break. Like I said this isnt a movie.

:lamo
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Not all problems are the same, and there is plenty of sexual slavery in the US now. Legalization has not always worked, even in the US. Nor has prohibition. There is no one magic formula (ex "Legalize it", "Ban it") that is garaunteed success.

The legalization of prostitution in the Netherlands has resulted in increases in a number of crimes relating to drugs and sexual slavery and human trafficking. The legalization of certain financial institutions and practices has led our economy to crash. Legalization, regulation, prohibition, de-regulation - none of these are cure-alls. Each situation requires it's own set of policies to deal with it. And the fact remains that very very few people become prostitutes without there being some form of coercion involved
 
The law is quite irrelevant here for the most part. Adults do have sexual freedom anyway. What two consenting adults do in their own privacy can't fall under the purview of the law, even if the law wants it to. Think about sodomy laws. Have they actually succeeded in stopping it from happening? Doubtful. You can't put cameras in every person's bedroom so how do you expect to have any enforcement?

The law is just a moral statement, and when it comes to adult sexuality that is consenting, the morality of the law is not only irrelevant, but it should be openly opposed. It's my body and my choice. That goes for everyone else. I was born into this life with free will and if I want to explore and enjoy my body to the fullest, I'm going to do it whether the law says it's okay or not.

The only thing the law really does in this regard is hinder a person's agency. If something goes wrong or you are violated during an act that was initially consensual - i.e. rape - you won't get any sympathy. A lot of prostitutes who are raped have this problem. If they go to the law, they themselves are at risk for being arrested, even though what was done to them was illegal. Jury bias also works this way against prostitutes.

Most laws instituting sexual morality need to go. I don't care what prudish conservatives think about their own bodies. Their own discomfort is none of my business, and my sex life is none of theirs.
 
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