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Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficient?

What would a welfare that rewards self-sufficiency look like? Select all that apply:

  • 1.) It would not allow recipients more than is needed to survive

    Votes: 5 45.5%
  • 2.) The reward for getting off welfare would be: recipients could afford more than necessities

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3.) programs would be temporary (recipients can only be on welfare for a certain period)

    Votes: 7 63.6%
  • 4.) It would grant small monetary payouts for every step forward

    Votes: 5 45.5%
  • 5.) Recipients would experience a sufficiently higher standard of living after getting off welfare

    Votes: 3 27.3%

  • Total voters
    11
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

That is why I called your argument absurd.

Are you disputing the notion that adding more workers to the low skill labor pool increases worker supply and thus decreases wage rates for low skill workers?
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

So who exactly is caring as the taxpayer's pockets get picked? Who weeps for us? If someone wants the State to help them out then the choice is entirely theirs. If they don't agree, then that's fine. They can go to your house and ask to live with you.

As for the religious groups, this would be a perfect opportunity for them to help the needy. I'm a big booster of putting one's money where one's mouth is.

I think you are never going to get it. Who weeps for you? I do. But not because your "pocket is being picked." Because you have divorced yourself from humanity. You aren't religious, but you expect them to pick up the tab? You must know by now that you have just boiled down your argument to "I have a right to be a selfish curmudgeon, and I intend to execute that right no matter who it hurts."
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

I've been on welfare (the dependent of an adult recipient). I'm aware of the Texas and Michigan qualifications for welfare. "Temporary" varies from state to state and time constraints can be loosened or eliminated with the introduction of a new baby, the loss of a job, or other "life events". You can be cut off after reaching the time limit only to reapply and begin receiving checks again a few months later. Additionally, most on the system learn very quickly that it pays more to work a low-income job and stay on welfare than it does to seek a higher paying job and lose benefits. So they work low-skill, low-pay positions so that they meet qualifications without losing benefits.

It isn't about being "deadbeats". It's about exploiting the flaws in the system to provide the most advantageous situation possible. The legislators built a system that allows for a lot of exploitation and provides little means of making a non-welfare life very appealing.

Nobody here was even saying that recipients are deadbeats, or dishonest, or abusing the system.

This entire thread was about how to make life after welfare more appealing and more productive than the current system allows.

Sure.. Those folks on welfare really want to work a lowpaying job over some HIGH paying job all cause they want some foodstamps and/or the check. NOT! :roll: You are sterotyping and assuming a lot about people you do not even know.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

So who exactly is caring as the taxpayer's pockets get picked? Who weeps for us? If someone wants the State to help them out then the choice is entirely theirs. If they don't agree, then that's fine. They can go to your house and ask to live with you.

As for the religious groups, this would be a perfect opportunity for them to help the needy. I'm a big booster of putting one's money where one's mouth is.

That's funny. You have a talent. Keep developing it.

If you make $250k or above, what are you crying about buddy? Just admit it making that kind of money has no downside whatsoever, other than the fact that the uber-wealthy pay a less crippling tax rate. If anyone should take the brunt of any tax burden anger or resentment it should be the uber-wealthy, not the middle class who pay way more than their relative share in taxes and certainly not the lower class who don't have any skin left to spare .. get your perspective straight buddy!
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

You aren't religious, but you expect them to pick up the tab?

You're misunderstanding. I'm not expecting the religious to pick up the tab. You wrote that the religious would object to the policy. My response is that if they object to a cost saving policy then they can step in and make up the shortfall. It's easy to object to things when other people get stuck with the bill. If they are making a principled objection then they can sacrifice their own welfare in order to uphold their principle.

I generously support the charities of my choosing. I don't ask you to support them and then shirk my own obligation to give.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

I am so damn sick of people acting as if folks living on welfare and in the projects have it made when it is not the case. Sure living up in a gang infested hood and getting just enough food to get by each month is REALLY living! The hell it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

WHY is it absurd? Argument by assertion isn't convincing.

There were poor long before these immigrants arrived. People have been making that argument for ages, and the real truth is that our immigrant population is a strength, not a weakness. The people who migrate to the US are ambitious. If they weren't they'd never make the effort. These immigrants that you hate so much are just the kind of hard workers you keep saying you want, and still you blame them for our ills. Open your eyes.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

I think you are never going to get it. Who weeps for you? I do. But not because your "pocket is being picked." Because you have divorced yourself from humanity. You aren't religious, but you expect them to pick up the tab? You must know by now that you have just boiled down your argument to "I have a right to be a selfish curmudgeon, and I intend to execute that right no matter who it hurts."

He has the right to have his taxes go towards things that are for him. Like I do, like you do, like we all. If people are suffering in this world and you care for them using my money to help them is not representation in taxes. If you wish to help them you can use your own money to do it and leave my money and his money alone. If you think that makes me selfish, so be it. I really don't give a ****. So I'm selfish with MY MONEY, who cares. You are selfish with MY money too. The difference is its MY MONEY and not yours.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

WHY is it absurd? Argument by assertion isn't convincing.

Look who's talking - as for Antiderivative's argument, all I saw was reason based ethical economic argument (considering the context and previous reasoning provided by Antiderivative)
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

He has the right to have his taxes go towards things that are for him. Like I do, like you do, like we all. If people are suffering in this world and you care for them using my money to help them is not representation in taxes. If you wish to help them you can use your own money to do it and leave my money and his money alone. If you think that makes me selfish, so be it. I really don't give a ****. So I'm selfish with MY MONEY, who cares. You are selfish with MY money too. The difference is its MY MONEY and not yours.

Now this really is humorous. Look at the numbers sometime. The people whose "pockets are being picked" most are the ones who are clamoring for increased taxes. The way the government apportions tax revenues to the states really is wealth re-distribution.. not to people, but to the states, and to conservative states in particular. Meanwhile you don't hear the good people of Massachusetts screaming that they should be able to keep their own income tax revenues in their state (and if they did, it would be quite a lot more money poured into that state). No, they don't share your views, and you should be thankful. If your conservative reactionary friends get their way, you will get to see the states containing the majority of your own base constituency go bankrupt.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Are you disputing the notion that adding more workers to the low skill labor pool increases worker supply and thus decreases wage rates for low skill workers?

Given that we have minimum wage laws, it can only suppress the wage so much. I don't believe that it would be a significant suppression.

In addition, it should have no effect on MEDIAN HH income. The median is not affected by outliers. However, in your faulty argument, you claim otherwise.
 
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Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

I've been on welfare (the dependent of an adult recipient). I'm aware of the Texas and Michigan qualifications for welfare. "Temporary" varies from state to state and time constraints can be loosened or eliminated with the introduction of a new baby, the loss of a job, or other "life events". You can be cut off after reaching the time limit only to reapply and begin receiving checks again a few months later. Additionally, most on the system learn very quickly that it pays more to work a low-income job and stay on welfare than it does to seek a higher paying job and lose benefits. So they work low-skill, low-pay positions so that they meet qualifications without losing benefits.

It isn't about being "deadbeats". It's about exploiting the flaws in the system to provide the most advantageous situation possible. The legislators built a system that allows for a lot of exploitation and provides little means of making a non-welfare life very appealing.

Nobody here was even saying that recipients are deadbeats, or dishonest, or abusing the system.

This entire thread was about how to make life after welfare more appealing and more productive than the current system allows.

One cannot argue that the system encourages people to stay on welfare - you are completely right that " to make life after welfare more appealing and more productive than the current system allows" - the problem is not the current safety features of welfare though, it's the fact that there are mechanisms that instead of rewarding advancement, punish it. For example abrupt welfare curt-offs based on a specific income level. These issues need to be fixed via a slow, progressive weening off the system, rewards need to be placed for those that advance, the uber-wealthy need to pick up their share, wages need to be reconsidered and outsourcing may need to be controlled via not allowing businesses to pay less than minimum wage outside the country - or something to that effect - if this doesn't happen - we won't see any major shifts off welfare unless the uber-wealthy pad pockets and the knowledgeable buy into flat tax or "trickle down" type propaganda, convincing political leaders to make poor policies which would unnecessarily force more people onto the streets.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Now this really is humorous. Look at the numbers sometime. The people whose "pockets are being picked" most are the ones who are clamoring for increased taxes. The way the government apportions tax revenues to the states really is wealth re-distribution.. not to people, but to the states, and to conservative states in particular. Meanwhile you don't hear the good people of Massachusetts screaming that they should be able to keep their own income tax revenues in their state (and if they did, it would be quite a lot more money poured into that state). No, they don't share your views, and you should be thankful. If your conservative reactionary friends get their way, you will get to see the states containing the majority of your own base constituency go bankrupt.

It is hard to take Republican "rugged individualism" seriously when most Red States are welfare states feeding off of Blue States.

If we ended welfare, then Red States would be the most affected.
 
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Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

You're misunderstanding. I'm not expecting the religious to pick up the tab. You wrote that the religious would object to the policy. My response is that if they object to a cost saving policy then they can step in and make up the shortfall. It's easy to object to things when other people get stuck with the bill. If they are making a principled objection then they can sacrifice their own welfare in order to uphold their principle.

I generously support the charities of my choosing. I don't ask you to support them and then shirk my own obligation to give.

And I don't want to support certain much higher spending endeavors such as the war on marijuana and the war on various oil harboring countries .. but I have to pay taxes for it to be done anyway!
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Right wing reactionaries hate welfare so much that they took action in Florida by drug testing welfare recipients.

Guess how much this will save the state? Nothing, but it will put them in the hole by $178 million dollars.
Only 2% of welfare applicants in Florida failed drug tests | The Raw Story
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Now this really is humorous. Look at the numbers sometime. The people whose "pockets are being picked" most are the ones who are clamoring for increased taxes.

Who wants increased taxes on themselves and not me? Liberals? The poor? The middle class? Who? Lets ignore who gets what today because they clearly do not want increased taxes on themselves.

The way the government apportions tax revenues to the states really is wealth re-distribution.. not to people, but to the states, and to conservative states in particular.

Oh so the conservative states get the money. Yes? So when liberal states ask for money, which is often, you overlook it?

Meanwhile you don't hear the good people of Massachusetts screaming that they should be able to keep their own income tax revenues in their state (and if they did, it would be quite a lot more money poured into that state). No, they don't share your views, and you should be thankful.

I'm guessing liberal states don't ask for money ever. I will be sure to tell California they are doing it wrong.

If your conservative reactionary friends get their way, you will get to see the states containing the majority of your own base constituency go bankrupt.

My own base constituency? Who is my base constituency exactly?

Also I enjoy how you used a red herring as if I supported it or that it somehow made what you are doing better. Cute.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

He has the right to have his taxes go towards things that are for him. Like I do, like you do, like we all. If people are suffering in this world and you care for them using my money to help them is not representation in taxes. If you wish to help them you can use your own money to do it and leave my money and his money alone. If you think that makes me selfish, so be it. I really don't give a ****. So I'm selfish with MY MONEY, who cares. You are selfish with MY money too. The difference is its MY MONEY and not yours.

MINE, MINE, MINE ... where have I heard that before .. oh yeah, from selfish 2 year olds (they can't help it though)

I've never seen a bigger group of whiners when it comes to paying taxes. Listen guys, there are lots of things I don't want to see my tax dollars go to, but they go there anyway .. if you want to change it, then start a movement about it .. if you hate the poor so much .. go ahead, start a petition, drive those poor people farther into the ground .. I'm going to focus my energy on leaving the poor alone and lobbying against useless spending like the "war on marijuana and hemp", our government encouraged addiction to foreign fuel sources, our excessive military occupation and so on .. stop trying to pick on the little guys and pick a good fight for once!
 
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Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Antiderivative said:
It is hard to take Republican "rugged individualism" seriously when most Red States are welfare states feeding off of Blue States.

If we ended welfare, then Red States would be the most affected.

I'm a republican? Do you guys ever bother to look at leans?
 
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Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

I'm a republican? Do you guys ever bother to look at leans?

You come off as a libertarian that espouses right wing talking points, as does RiverDad. It is not uncommon to find libertarians that lean heavily to the right.

I am sorry for implying that you were a Republican, but you espouse right wing talking points.

I also lean heavily towards libertarianism, but I am from the left, so your point........?
 
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Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

MINE, MINE, MINE ... where have I heard that before .. oh yeah, from selfish 2 year olds (they can't help it though)

I'm sorry you need my money for your wants and desires. Maybe you should should pay for them and take some responsibly for your own wants and desires?

I've never seen a bigger group of whiners when it comes to paying taxes. Listen guys, there are lots of things I don't want to see my tax dollars go to, but they go there anyway .. if you want to change it, then start a movement about it .. if you hate the poor so much .. go ahead, start a petition, drive those poor people farther into the ground .. I'm going to focus my energy on leaving the poor alone and lobbying against useless spending like the "war on marijuana and hemp", our government encouraged addiction to foreign fuel sources, our excessive military occupation and so on .. stop trying to pick on the little guys and pick a good fight for once!

Have you ever seen some of my posts? You really should and you will see I don't pick on the poor as much as I pick fights with things across the board. I have no wants and desires from government other than police, military, courts and a money supply.

I'm sorry you need, but asking me goes a long way.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

MINE, MINE, MINE ... where have I heard that before .. oh yeah, from selfish 2 year olds (they can't help it though)

I've never seen a bigger group of whiners when it comes to paying taxes. Listen guys, there are lots of things I don't want to see my tax dollars go to, but they go there anyway .. if you want to change it, then start a movement about it .. if you hate the poor so much .. go ahead, start a petition, drive those poor people farther into the ground .. I'm going to focus my energy on leaving the poor alone and lobbying against useless spending like the "war on marijuana and hemp", our government encouraged addiction to foreign fuel sources, our excessive military occupation and so on .. stop trying to pick on the little guys and pick a good fight for once!

As much as the right and psuedo-libertarians despise the poor and welfare, they never attack corporate welfare with the same amount of vigor.

It is almost an axiom.

I am a very libertarian in nature, but this is the main reason why I like to distance myself from them. They are completely silent on corporate welfare and how it creates a plutocracy while going after personal welfare which is such a small amount of the budget. It is ****ing absurd.
 
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Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

As much as the right and psuedo-libertarians despise the poor and welfare, they never attack corporate welfare with the same amount of vigor.

It is almost an axiom.

When we are talking about corporate welfare you will hear my hate for it, I think that is fair.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Oh so the conservative states get the money. Yes? So when liberal states ask for money, which is often, you overlook it?

This is a mostly bogus statistic because it includes federal transfers like Social Security checks going to retirees who've moved South and military spending for bases in the South because San Francisco would go apoplectic if a military based was set up in Marin County.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

I'm sorry you need my money for your wants and desires. Maybe you should should pay for them and take some responsibly for your own wants and desires?

Hey buddy, I pay for your wants and desires too.. when did you not understand that?

Have you ever seen some of my posts? You really should and you will see I don't pick on the poor as much as I pick fights with things across the board. I have no wants and desires from government other than police, military, courts and a money supply.

I'm sorry you need, but asking me goes a long way.

If you had any inkling of what only those services would do to our country, including you and me .. you'd think twice about that assertion. You and I need and rely on many more services than that and you don't even realize it. Have you been paying attention to anything I have been saying? Get rid of safety nets, progressive taxation and government regulations and you and I will both end up on the streets - end of story. The tax cuts for the uber-wealthy are already proving that to be true, i.e. look at our income disparity now as compared to in the past - it won't stop unless the government stops it.
 
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Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

When we are talking about corporate welfare you will hear my hate for it, I think that is fair.

We are talking about welfare right now. Feel free to express your hate for it now. Let me hear your roar.
 
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