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Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficient?

What would a welfare that rewards self-sufficiency look like? Select all that apply:

  • 1.) It would not allow recipients more than is needed to survive

    Votes: 5 45.5%
  • 2.) The reward for getting off welfare would be: recipients could afford more than necessities

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3.) programs would be temporary (recipients can only be on welfare for a certain period)

    Votes: 7 63.6%
  • 4.) It would grant small monetary payouts for every step forward

    Votes: 5 45.5%
  • 5.) Recipients would experience a sufficiently higher standard of living after getting off welfare

    Votes: 3 27.3%

  • Total voters
    11
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Here's the real problem:


In fact, a shocking 49 percent of all babies born in the U.S. are born to families receiving food supplements from the WIC program, according to Jean Daniel, spokesperson for the USDA.​


People who can't afford to have children are producing half of the children born in the US. Then those of us can manage our reproductive freedom responsibly end up paying for other people's children and marginally depriving our own.

Things that cannot go on forever, won't.

Exactly the problem .. its sad when middle class families just above the poverty level who pay their taxes and work at least 2 jobs per household end up with as much and often less than those under the poverty level who have been accepted into the welfare systems

Oh, just so you know .. at least in my State .. WIC is a pittance assistance .. it pales in comparison to the food stamp program

-I don't know what Jean Daniel's agenda was, but he definitely called out the wrong program - if he's gonna bash any poverty food assistance program, bash the one that gives out the most (not that I think any of these programs should be bashed, except that I don't agree with the way they create an incentive to keep people on welfare)
 
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Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Here's the real problem:


In fact, a shocking 49 percent of all babies born in the U.S. are born to families receiving food supplements from the WIC program, according to Jean Daniel, spokesperson for the USDA.​


People who can't afford to have children are producing half of the children born in the US. Then those of us can manage our reproductive freedom responsibly end up paying for other people's children and marginally depriving our own.

Things that cannot go on forever, won't.

WIC spending is around around $17 billion, which is nothing in relation to overall government spending. Calling it unsustainable is a misnomer, to say the least.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

WIC spending is around around $17 billion, which is nothing in relation to overall government spending. Calling it unsustainable is a misnomer, to say the least.

Exactly, the program pales in comparison to Food Stamps who's spending is $73 billion a year (see link for source):

U.S. Spending On Food Stamps At All-Time High, Sparking Debate Over Welfare | FoxNews.com

Again .. I'm not against such welfare programs .. I am just against the way the system encourages those on welfare to stay on it
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

WIC spending is around around $17 billion, which is nothing in relation to overall government spending. Calling it unsustainable is a misnomer, to say the least.

WIC is the tip of the iceberg. It's not WIC that is unsustainable, it's the situation of people having kids when they can't afford to have kids. Read that snippet again - "49 percent of all babies born in the U.S. are born to families receiving food supplements " - that's saying that half of all babies born are born to families that are ALREADY receiving aid. If you can't afford to feed your family why on earth are you having more kids?
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Here's the real problem:


In fact, a shocking 49 percent of all babies born in the U.S. are born to families receiving food supplements from the WIC program, according to Jean Daniel, spokesperson for the USDA.​


People who can't afford to have children are producing half of the children born in the US. Then those of us can manage our reproductive freedom responsibly end up paying for other people's children and marginally depriving our own.

Things that cannot go on forever, won't.

How do you propose to stop poor people from having children? Oh I agree that from pragmatic viewpoint it would be better for everyone if the birthrate among the poor was lower, but I am realistic enough to know that our likelihood of effecting meaningful change on that front doesn't lie in conservative policies like doing away with welfare. You won't stop the babies from coming, you will only increase the number of them that are not merely poor, but poverty stricken.

Consider this: Those "other peoples children" are potentially the parents or grandparents of your own descendants as well. You have no control over who your children choose to procreate with, nor your grandchildren and so on down the line. Given the distribution of capital in this country, it is more likely than not that within two generations your own grandchildren will be among those poor that you currently despise so much, and it will be due to people that think the way you do.

If you want to effect meaningful change that will do your descendants any good, you need to address the reasons people are poor or poverty stricken.

Hint: It isn't because they are lazy and have welfare to rely on.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

WIC is the tip of the iceberg. It's not WIC that is unsustainable, it's the situation of people having kids when they can't afford to have kids. Read that snippet again - "49 percent of all babies born in the U.S. are born to families receiving food supplements " - that's saying that half of all babies born are born to families that are ALREADY receiving aid. If you can't afford to feed your family why on earth are you having more kids?

I simply don't believe those numbers. Additionally, they claim that poverty level for a family of four is $41,348. However, the federal standards is about half of that.
2009 Federal Poverty Guidelines

There is something funky going on with that article.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

How do you propose to stop poor people from having children? Oh I agree that from pragmatic viewpoint it would be better for everyone if the birthrate among the poor was lower, but I am realistic enough to know that our likelihood of effecting meaningful change on that front doesn't lie in conservative policies like doing away with welfare. You won't stop the babies from coming, you will only increase the number of them that are not merely poor, but poverty stricken.

At some point a solution has to be developed no matter how squeamish we are at the prospect of solving this problem. The solution is obvious to all, but no one wants to broach it. The solution is to do what many professional single woman are doing voluntarily - egg banking. For men it would be sperm banking.

If a family with children is receiving state aid we need to guarantee that they won't have more children who will then just add to the state's welfare burden. Snip, snip. When people get themselves out of the hole that they were in, are no longer on welfare, and want to expand their family, then they call up the egg or sperm bank and set about having another kid.

Yes, it's an imposition on their reproductive freedom, but their call on state resources is a counterbalancing imposition on everyone else's freedom.

Consider this: Those "other peoples children" are potentially the parents or grandparents of your own descendants as well. You have no control over who your children choose to procreate with, nor your grandchildren and so on down the line. Given the distribution of capital in this country, it is more likely than not that within two generations your own grandchildren will be among those poor that you currently despise so much, and it will be due to people that think the way you do.

Boo-hoo. Am I supposed to feel sad or something? I'm immune to liberal guilt trips, but keep trying, the comedy effect is pretty funny.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Exactly, the program pales in comparison to Food Stamps who's spending is $73 billion a year (see link for source):

U.S. Spending On Food Stamps At All-Time High, Sparking Debate Over Welfare | FoxNews.com

Again .. I'm not against such welfare programs .. I am just against the way the system encourages those on welfare to stay on it

Still $73 billion is not all that much given the worst economic climate since the Great Depression. Additionally, the Heritage Foundation claims that "You certainly expect the food stamp program to go up during a recession, that's not a bad thing," said Robert Rector, a poverty expert at the conservative Heritage Foundation. "What we should be concerned about is even before the recession the food stamp program was increasing dramatically, because the government was reaching out to bring people into the program and then make them dependent."

The problem with this statement is that as the economy grew during the Bush years, only a few benefited. In fact, most productivity gains of the last four decades have gone to the uber rich. As the economic pie gets bigger, not everyone is better off. It is sad to live in a country where median HH income has remained stagnant since the early 60's.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

The problem with this statement is that as the economy grew during the Bush years, only a few benefited. In fact, most productivity gains of the last four decades have gone to the uber rich. As the economic pie gets bigger, not everyone is better off. It is sad to live in a country where median HH income has remained stagnant since the early 60's.

What do you expect when we import poverty via immigration? Adding low skilled labor to the labor force actively depresses wages for the lowest skilled people and prevents them from benefiting by the increased wages which result in period of labor scarcity. Secondly, gains in household income that are occurring are being occluded by the addition of poor people - it's like having a bucket that is filling up with water while someone directly across from you is scooping the water out. Your water level is not rising even though the hose is filling the bucket.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

How do you propose to stop poor people from having children? Oh I agree that from pragmatic viewpoint it would be better for everyone if the birthrate among the poor was lower, but I am realistic enough to know that our likelihood of effecting meaningful change on that front doesn't lie in conservative policies like doing away with welfare. You won't stop the babies from coming, you will only increase the number of them that are not merely poor, but poverty stricken.

Consider this: Those "other peoples children" are potentially the parents or grandparents of your own descendants as well. You have no control over who your children choose to procreate with, nor your grandchildren and so on down the line. Given the distribution of capital in this country, it is more likely than not that within two generations your own grandchildren will be among those poor that you currently despise so much, and it will be due to people that think the way you do.

If you want to effect meaningful change that will do your descendants any good, you need to address the reasons people are poor or poverty stricken.

Hint: It isn't because they are lazy and have welfare to rely on.

Exactly .. what is it the current generation is the first to make, on average, less than their parents, i.e. the trend used to be an average of upward mobility and for the first time it is downward

The problem of course is related to population levels and the increasing level of money trickling upward (no trickle down economics do not work) as is predicted when corporations and the wealthy are not kept in check .. things would trickle up even faster if there were a flat tax .. as of now many middle class pay around the same percentage as the wealthy because there are more tax loopholes that are easier for the wealthy to exploit, therefore eliminating the intended effect of progressive taxation - progressive taxation is meant to keep the money from trickling upward, but progressive taxation is void when tax loopholes effectively remove that progressive tax system
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

At some point a solution has to be developed no matter how squeamish we are at the prospect of solving this problem. The solution is obvious to all, but no one wants to broach it. The solution is to do what many professional single woman are doing voluntarily - egg banking. For men it would be sperm banking.

If a family with children is receiving state aid we need to guarantee that they won't have more children who will then just add to the state's welfare burden. Snip, snip. When people get themselves out of the hole that they were in, are no longer on welfare, and want to expand their family, then they call up the egg or sperm bank and set about having another kid.

Yes, it's an imposition on their reproductive freedom, but their call on state resources is a counterbalancing imposition on everyone else's freedom.

Sure, the poor are going to agree to this? The religious right are going to agree to it? You are fighting a losing battle on two fronts. Good luck with that.

Boo-hoo. Am I supposed to feel sad or something? I'm immune to liberal guilt trips, but keep trying, the comedy effect is pretty funny.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you find it funny. Regardless of what your willful myopia allows you to perceive, it is no less true. I don't expect any kind of empathetic reaction from you, no. You have proven already that you aren't capable of caring about anyone beyond your limited little world. I do feel sorry for your descendants though. How will they be able to bear the shame of having you in their family tree, only time can tell.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Still $73 billion is not all that much given the worst economic climate since the Great Depression. Additionally, the Heritage Foundation claims that "You certainly expect the food stamp program to go up during a recession, that's not a bad thing," said Robert Rector, a poverty expert at the conservative Heritage Foundation. "What we should be concerned about is even before the recession the food stamp program was increasing dramatically, because the government was reaching out to bring people into the program and then make them dependent."

The problem with this statement is that as the economy grew during the Bush years, only a few benefited. In fact, most productivity gains of the last four decades have gone to the uber rich. As the economic pie gets bigger, not everyone is better off. It is sad to live in a country where median HH income has remained stagnant since the early 60's.

I couldn't agree more with you .. was simply pointing out that RiverDad's citation of Jean Daniel's comments regarding how "expensive" the WIC program was completely off base and likely related to some other underhanded and ill-informed agenda

It is very sad that the wealthy (those making $250k and up) who support misnomers like "trickle down economics" will eventually find themselves in the poorhouse as the uber-wealthy will only get richer if either their taxes are not increased or their tax loopholes are not closed. All the wealthy who think they are safe, are not if they aren't in the top few wealth percentiles
 
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Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

I agree, even if people are disabled, whatever they are able to do, they should do - everyone should contribute

Say What? You think disabled folks should have to work even though they cannot?:roll:
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as much as possible, the need for its own existence. - Ronald Reagan

Anyway, it just needs to be disincentivized. The truth is that people can live quite well off the dole. I've seen people on all sorts of government assistance with their own place, own car, many of what can be listed as luxuries (air conditioning, computers, gaming consoles, etc.). That has to stop. We need to create the illusion - and make it real - that welfare recipients have a life barely above homelessness. Sardine can for a place, absolutely NO creature comforts, eating cold beans from a can. When you can have generally the same lifestyle as someone who works 40 hours a week without doing a thing, you'd be a fool to trade that in.

So in other words you wish to treat these people as 2nd class citizens. Your mind set is a disgust:(
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Say What? You think disabled folks should have to work even though they cannot?:roll:

No, he thinks that disabled folks should do what they are capable of doing. I am ambivalent about the term "differently-abled" but in this case, it applies.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Say What? You think disabled folks should have to work even though they cannot?:roll:

Not at all Kali; you should know me better than that .. :) ..

I was just saying that there are disabled folks, I have worked with such clients, who do work and or volunteer; they can be productive members of society ..

Of course, there are different levels of disability ..

Of course those that actually cannot contribute should not .. how could they if they weren't able , lol

I think we may have had a disconnect there or something ???
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

What do you expect when we import poverty via immigration? Adding low skilled labor to the labor force actively depresses wages for the lowest skilled people and prevents them from benefiting by the increased wages which result in period of labor scarcity. Secondly, gains in household income that are occurring are being occluded by the addition of poor people - it's like having a bucket that is filling up with water while someone directly across from you is scooping the water out. Your water level is not rising even though the hose is filling the bucket.

Blaming poverty and the stagnation of HH income on immigration is absurd.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

since the welfare reform of the nineties things have certainly changed. welfare IS temporary, and in most cases people are required to work or engage in a work related activity. i think that most people don't really know how wlefare works these days, but blanketly assume everyone on welfare is a deadbeat. many times, women with children are on welfare because of deadbeat dads won't won't pay child support. anyway, here is link to florida TANF:

Florida TANF Program | Florida Temporary Cash Assistance for Needy Families

I have to snicker at the folks that think there is still welfare to life in this country. They are clueless and really should not be commenting on stuff they know Nothing about! They just know they hate welfare and do not wanna help others-instead of these dumbass folks keeping the rumor you can live well and on welfare for life? Maybe they should get a damn clue or shut the hell up about it.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Sure, the poor are going to agree to this? The religious right are going to agree to it? You are fighting a losing battle on two fronts. Good luck with that.

So who exactly is caring as the taxpayer's pockets get picked? Who weeps for us? If someone wants the State to help them out then the choice is entirely theirs. If they don't agree, then that's fine. They can go to your house and ask to live with you.

As for the religious groups, this would be a perfect opportunity for them to help the needy. I'm a big booster of putting one's money where one's mouth is.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you find it funny. Regardless of what your willful myopia allows you to perceive, it is no less true. I don't expect any kind of empathetic reaction from you, no. You have proven already that you aren't capable of caring about anyone beyond your limited little world. I do feel sorry for your descendants though. How will they be able to bear the shame of having you in their family tree, only time can tell.

That's funny. You have a talent. Keep developing it.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Blaming poverty and the stagnation of HH income on immigration is absurd.

Indeed, but it's also most convenient. Scapegoats are the bread and butter of the reactionary crowd.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Blaming poverty and the stagnation of HH income on immigration is absurd.

WHY is it absurd? Argument by assertion isn't convincing.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Unfortunately, along the same lines there are some single mothers on public assistance who purposely get pregnant to increase the size of the benefit.

I can tell that most of the folks posting in this thread have no clue how welfare works. After two children in MOST states you do not keep getting more.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as much as possible, the need for its own existence. - Ronald Reagan

Anyway, it just needs to be disincentivized. The truth is that people can live quite well off the dole. I've seen people on all sorts of government assistance with their own place, own car, many of what can be listed as luxuries (air conditioning, computers, gaming consoles, etc.). That has to stop. We need to create the illusion - and make it real - that welfare recipients have a life barely above homelessness. Sardine can for a place, absolutely NO creature comforts, eating cold beans from a can. When you can have generally the same lifestyle as someone who works 40 hours a week without doing a thing, you'd be a fool to trade that in.

I agree that welfare recipients shouldn't be living high off the hog if they are actually able to work and be self-sufficient - and we should always be looking for ways to eliminate the need for welfare - however, there will always be those in need and they need a safety net and the way I see it there are two options A.) welfare or B.) living wages

Of course welfare should provide incentives in such a way that the better people do financially, the more rewards they get, thus providing them incentives to get off welfare - but we can't get rid of it completely, even with living wages, unemployment will exist and that requires safety nets
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

WHY is it absurd? Argument by assertion isn't convincing.

That is why I called your argument absurd.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Indeed, but it's also most convenient. Scapegoats are the bread and butter of the reactionary crowd.

You know what is most amusing, is that RiverDad is a libertarian and is essentially blaming market forces for poverty.
 
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