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Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

Why is the middle class the most crippled by income tax? Select all that apply

  • Allowing many people to have a shot at being uber-wealthy is dangerous

    Votes: 1 3.1%

  • Making the uber-wealthy share the load would be bad for the economy

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • The middle class do not have as much of an influence on politics as the wealthy do

    Votes: 24 75.0%

  • The idea that the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax is a myth

    Votes: 9 28.1%

  • A few wealthy, a few more middle class and many lower class citizens is best

    Votes: 2 6.3%
  • Total voters
    32
Interesting poll results so far
 
TurtleDude said:
uh they are not always exclusive

try again

and I doubt you can define the good of the commonwealth
Click to expand...

Way to dodge the question here I'll add a third option:

What do you think is more important?

1.) Absolute freedom for the individual
2.) The good of the commonwealth
3.) Both are equally important

So what is it .. #1 , #2 or #3?
 
TurtleDude said:
its funny-people without the wherewithall to be wealthy lecturing those of us who are.

why don't you tell me what loopholes we use to avoid paying 39% of the income tax

oh we already do and yet we still pay far more of the income tax than our share of the income
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Oh .. that's right, you already told me .. you pay 24% ... so you do dodge taxes via unnecessary tax loopholes .. says a lot if you ask me
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Way to dodge the question here I'll add a third option:

What do you think is more important?

1.) Absolute freedom for the individual
2.) The good of the commonwealth
3.) Both are equally important

So what is it .. #1 , #2 or #3?
Click to expand...

what is the good of the commonwealth?

I am not an anarchist and deny anarchy leads to more freedom for the individual. as a libertarian I support those necessary functions of government that actually promote freedom. However, I rejected the socialist faux libertarian position that those unable (or more often unwilling) to feed themselves cannot be free unless others are coerced into feeding them.
 
TurtleDude said:
Interesting poll results so far
Click to expand...

Very interesting .. says a lot about how little those that responded understand the system .. sounds about right though .. it's similar to grades in school .. like a bell curve .. the majority are in the average grade range and there are a few outliers .. in this poll example it looks like both the mid grade and lower grade levels pooled to make the majority (73%) and the higher grade levels made the 27% minority
 
TurtleDude said:
so you are saying that 90X people use less of the government services paid for by the FIT than that top one percent.

OKIE DOKIE
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Sill nothing to back up your previous claim that the rich benefit less than the working class, I see.

And now you are making a new claim that 90% of the country are working class??? 14.9% of the country are poor, 17% are seniors (no longer working), and 10% are the wealthy. That leaves 42.9% as the working class.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Oh .. that's right, you already told me .. you pay 24% ... so you do dodge taxes via unnecessary tax loopholes .. says a lot if you ask me
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how so? my group pays the highest effective rates. I doubt you understand the tax code enough to even evaluate what is a loophole. a mortgage deduction is not a loophole. A business expense is not a loophole. Lower rates on dividends (in reality the dividend is often taxed twice) or capital gains are not loopholes.
 
Catawba said:
Sill nothing to back up your previous claim that the rich benefit less than the working class, I see.

And now you are making a new claim that 90% of the country are working class??? 14.9% of the country are poor, 17% are seniors (no longer working), and 10% are the wealthy. That leaves 42.9% as the working class.
Click to expand...

If you are going to lie at least try to be a bit more subtle. I never said that 90% are working class.

10% are now wealthy? I thought you all claimed it was the top 2% who are "rich" or are treated as such via the tax code
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Very interesting .. says a lot about how little those that responded understand the system .. sounds about right though .. it's similar to grades in school .. like a bell curve .. the majority are in the average grade range and there are a few outliers .. in this poll example it looks like both the mid grade and lower grade levels pooled to make the majority (73%) and the higher grade levels made the 27% minority
Click to expand...

I guess you missed the fact that the poll was stupid but for sure the middle class do not pay crippling amounts of income tax.
 
TurtleDude said:
I guess you missed the fact that the poll was stupid but for sure the middle class do not pay crippling amounts of income tax.
Click to expand...

A middle class person paying 12 % on 80,000 has more a burden than you...apples to apples...you pay more because you steal and connive more :)
 
TurtleDude said:
If you are going to lie at least try to be a bit more subtle. I never said that 90% are working class.

10% are now wealthy? I thought you all claimed it was the top 2% who are "rich" or are treated as such via the tax code
Click to expand...

The 10%/90% crap is what you kept referring to when pressed to back up your claim that the rich benefit less from government than the working class, so I could only assume that you think 90% of the population is working class and 10% is rich.

So when are going to back up your claim that the rich benefit less from government than the working class?
 
lpast said:
A middle class person paying 12 % on 80,000 has more a burden than you...apples to apples...you pay more because you steal and connive more :)
Click to expand...

wrong again


you define burden from each according to their ability rather than value given or value receive

your silly and idiotic view of how people get rich is probably why you are not
 
Catawba said:
The 10%/90% crap is what you kept referring to when pressed to back up your claim that the rich benefit less from government than the working class, so I could only assume that you think 90% of the population is working class and 10% is rich.

So when are going to back up your claim that the rich benefit less from government than the working class?
Click to expand...

that is an interesting excuse for blatantly misrepresenting what I said

so you are saying that 90 percent of the population get less benefits from the government than that one percent?

go ahead and run with that
 
TurtleDude said:
that is an interesting excuse for blatantly misrepresenting what I said

so you are saying that 90 percent of the population get less benefits from the government than that one percent?

go ahead and run with that
Click to expand...

No, I am saying that 90% of the population has nothing to do with your claim that rich benefit less from government than the working class?
 
Catawba said:
No, I am saying that 90% of the population has nothing to do with your claim that rich benefit less from government than the working class?
Click to expand...

I suspect most of those in the top one percent actually work far more than most of those in the bottom rungs
 
TurtleDude said:
what is the good of the commonwealth?
Click to expand...

I am using the following definition:

Commonwealth defined:

9. The general good

With the added comment that I do not believe supporting the commonwealth means anarchy or unbridled humanitarian interest .. rather it means what is best for our country as a whole "the general good" - how would you define what is best for our country as a whole .. or have you even thought about it? In other words, what is best for our country .. absolute freedom for the individual, the good of the commonwealth
or some mixture of both - if it's a mixture do you think the commonwealth or absolute individual freedom is slightly more important or are they both equally important?

TurtleDude said:
I am not an anarchist and deny anarchy leads to more freedom for the individual. as a libertarian I support those necessary functions of government that actually promote freedom. However, I rejected the socialist faux libertarian position that those unable (or more often unwilling) to feed themselves cannot be free unless others are coerced into feeding them.
Click to expand...

Oh, OK, never mind it looks like you answered my question the answer was closest to option #1, i.e. freedom for the individual?

Oh by the way, according to your position on the political compass (part of the research i did in one of my posts) you are not exactly a Libertarian (see below):

TurtleDude said:
pcgraphpng.php


economic L/R 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -4.05

hardly shocking
Click to expand...

This means economically your are 71.2% right wing (from the center, which would be a score of 0, i.e. a pure centrist, "pure" left being -10 and "pure" right being 10)
And 70.2% libertarian (comparing from "pure" Authoritarian, which would be a score of 10, to "pure" Libertarian, which would be a score of -10)

For giggles I went back and looked at mine to and here it is:

MusicAdventurer said:
My score fell in the "Libertarian Left" quadrant ...

My political compass score was:

Economic Left/Right: -5.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.36

Below is what my chart looked like:

political compass graph.jpg

So I am 56.2% left wing (I'm less left wing than you are right wing)
I am 12% libertarian (I am less libertarian than you are)

So I'm less like a true to a libertarian than you are and l ess like a left winger than you are like a right winger - Probably why other online surveys rate me as a centrist (although I am usually on the outskirts of being a centrist- being more libertarian and more left than most centrists)

So we are definitely more similar when it comes to the libertarian (governmental social issues control aspect) than we are similar on economic issues (that difference is like night and day)

Does this all sound right?

I am just trying to understand how what you feel is ethically right in terms of economical issues and its no wonder we can never see eye to eye since we value different things economically speaking - it's like we are arguing from two different rule books, lol! :)

So what's the middle ground?

Probably me caring more about individual freedoms economically speaking and you caring more about the commonwealth economically speaking
Click to expand...
 
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I posted a response to that grid weeks ago I think I was around 5 oclock in the purple

edit-didn't see my response-I was close. The formatting of your post was such I didn't see it.

I would argue that a libertarian perspective is best for the common good
 
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TurtleDude said:
I suspect most of those in the top one percent actually work far more than most of those in the bottom rungs
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Yes you whine, you suspect, you surmise, you pontificate, you flap your lips, and you number your opinions, anything but providing proof of your claim that the rich benefit less from government than the working class.
 
TurtleDude said:
I posted a response to that grid weeks ago I think I was around 5 oclock in the purple

edit-didn't see my response-I was close. The formatting of your post was such I didn't see it.

I would argue that a libertarian perspective is best for the common good
Click to expand...

yeah .. something was up with it .. I couldn't see my graph either .. I can see it now though .. can you?
 
MusicAdventurer said:
This means economically your are 71.2% right wing (from the center, which would be a score of 0, i.e. a pure centrist, "pure" left being -10 and "pure" right being 10)
And 70.2% libertarian (comparing from "pure" Authoritarian, which would be a score of 10, to "pure" Libertarian, which would be a score of -10)
Click to expand...

MusicAdventurer said:
So I am 56.2% left wing (I'm less left wing than you are right wing)
I am 12% libertarian (I am less libertarian than you are)
Click to expand...

LOL! there's like 63.7 percentage points between us from left to right! .. while there is only 8.5 percentage points between us from libertarian to authoritarian
 
Catawba said:
Yes you whine, you suspect, you surmise, you pontificate, you flap your lips, and you number your opinions, anything but providing proof of your claim that the rich benefit less from government than the working class.
Click to expand...

LOL! Our arch enemy TurtleDude!
 
MusicAdventurer said:
It has been shown that the middle class pays the most crippling amount of income taxes and the middle class is relatively small. Crippling means that the ratio of living expenses to income tax makes it so that despite one’s increased income, the standard of living has not gone up much and there is still significant hardship. It is clear that most making above $250,000 are not crippled by income tax and instead cannot wrap their minds around the concept of progressive taxation (even though the wealthiest find loopholes out of such taxation). So, why is this the case? Why does the middle class shoulder the largest relative tax burden?
Click to expand...



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece
Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent.
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Here's some illuminating data:

Median household income is $50k. Average persons per household is 2.6. Divide one by the other, and half the people in the country live on less than $19,300 a year each. (a rough estimate -- I recognize that the latter figure is an average of all households, so the two groups don't directly correlate)

Now check out this

A thrifty family of two spends $340 a month ($4,080 a year) on meals, so figure the typical household is dropping $5-10K a year on food alone. Then add up health insurance, transportation costs (car and gas), mortgage or rent, utilities, and probably some extra amenities. Hell, median rent is $755 a month. For the average renter, that's a third of his income.

These people should shoulder America's debt?
 
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GhostlyJoe said:
Here's some illuminating data:

Median household income is $50k. Average persons per household is 2.6. Divide one by the other, and half the people in the country live on less than $19,300 a year each. (a rough estimate -- I recognize that the latter figure is an average of all households, so the two groups don't directly correlate)

Now check out this

A thrifty family of two spends $340 a month ($4,080 a year) on meals, so figure the typical household is dropping $5-10K a year on food alone. Then add up health insurance, transportation costs (car and gas), mortgage or rent, utilities, and probably some extra amenities. Hell, median rent is $755 a month. For the average renter, that's a third of his income.

These people should shoulder America's debt?
Click to expand...

That's what Obama is asking them to do, yes...and by "ask" I mean "force".
 
GhostlyJoe said:
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

A thrifty family of two spends $340 a month ($4,080 a year) on meals, so figure the typical household is dropping $5-10K a year on food alone. Then add up health insurance, transportation costs (car and gas), mortgage or rent, utilities, and probably some extra amenities. Hell, median rent is $755 a month. For the average renter, that's a third of his income.
Click to expand...

If they're paying a mortgage then they're also paying maintenance upkeep, homeowner's insurance, garbage (unless you were thinking of that in utilities...usually people just think 'utilities' is electric and water)....etc.
 
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