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Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

Why is the middle class the most crippled by income tax? Select all that apply

  • Allowing many people to have a shot at being uber-wealthy is dangerous

    Votes: 1 3.1%

  • Making the uber-wealthy share the load would be bad for the economy

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • The middle class do not have as much of an influence on politics as the wealthy do

    Votes: 24 75.0%

  • The idea that the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax is a myth

    Votes: 9 28.1%

  • A few wealthy, a few more middle class and many lower class citizens is best

    Votes: 2 6.3%
  • Total voters
    32
TurtleDude said:
the entire thread is based on an idiotic assumption-that the middle class pay a "crippling" amount of income tax. that is utter bovine excrement
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In your skewed opinion based on your own interests - perhaps. But for the vast majority of America, perhaps not once you consider what percentage of income it takes an average working person just to keep body and soul together compared to the large amounts of extra discretionary income the wealthy have.

That seems to the point you are missing or at least refuse to even consider.
 
haymarket said:
In your skewed opinion based on your own interests - perhaps. But for the vast majority of America, perhaps not once you consider what percentage of income it takes an average working person just to keep body and soul together compared to the large amounts of extra discretionary income the wealthy have.

That seems to the point you are missing or at least refuse to even consider.
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tell us what percentiles do you consider the middle class?

if the middle class cannot afford to pay their artificially low income tax rates, maybe they should stop voting for more and more government.

and you are ignoring the value received side of the ledger-as usual. it sort of bitch slaps your view on what is a proper level of taxation
 
TurtleDude said:
if the middle class cannot afford to pay their artificially low income tax rates, maybe they should stop voting for more and more government.

and you are ignoring the value received side of the ledger-as usual. it sort of bitch slaps your view on what is a proper level of taxation
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Why would the American people willingly give up their right to vote so you and the wealthy can 'bitch slap' (to use your terminology) the nation? Can you give me three good reasons why they would do that?

Value received - something in the way of government services you can never ever identify, measure or quantify by your own admission - is important at the Costco. It has nothing to do with taxation as has been explained to you time and time again in thread after thread.

here is but one example and it contains your own admission of failure on the taxation as retail shopping model

http://www.debatepolitics.com/economics/104349-taxation-retail-shopping-model.html
 
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mike2810 said:
Please provide creditable links to back up your claims.
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Would that really convince you? I have seen that after doing the work of sharing the data I have found in the past, that most people shrug off such data and go on believing what they originally believed. That, by definition, is psychosis. You are just upset that I spoke the truth you don't want to hear. Let's just do a little experiment .. shall we?

We know the bottom 75% of the population owns a ridiculously small amount of income (what is it, like 25%? don't quote me on this) and we know that the top 25% owns a ridiculously large amount of wealth (what is like around 75% ? - don't quote me on this) - you do the math - with that kind of money the wealthy wouldn't feel it

O.K so you still want a "credible" source? Fine, tell me what you think is a credible source? Because, given the irreverence I have seen to completely sound arguments with extremely credible sources, it's pointless to show you what you already know to be true just so you can make up some cop-out excuse to go on believing immoral claims.

So please, if you want credible sources, actually mean it instead of using it as a cop out. Describe exactly what you want credible sources for and I shall provide them (if it is possible of course, so many people are so unreasonable these days)
 
haymarket said:
Why would the American people willingly give up their right to vote so you and the wealthy can 'bitch slap' (to use your terminology) the nation? Can you give me three good reasons why they would do that?

Value received - something in the way of government services you can never ever identify, measure or quantify by your own admission - is important at the Costco. It has nothing to do with taxation as has been explained to you time and time again in thread after thread.
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still spewing the mob rule nonsense. tell us why people who don't have any skin in the game should have the same voting rights as those who pay a lot of taxes. and don't repeat the usual crap that "it is the law". give a reasoned argument why someone who lives off the public dole should have equal say about taxes and laws as someone who pays a million a year in taxes.
 
TurtleDude said:
socialists are always generous with someone else's money. they take credit for distributing wealth that others earned.
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Um, that would be my money too my friend :) ... unfortunately, your position that only poor people support progressive taxation and semi-socialist programs informed by capitalism is a straw man-completely inaccurate .. hmm who else agrees with me .. oh yea all those other sensible taxpayers including Buffett

TurtleDude said:
You really aren't learned enough as to the rich and their costs of living to speak with such arrogance towards those who actually pay far more of the taxes than you do.
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Who said anything about the living costs the wealthy choose to pay? I certainly did not .. are you sure it was in this thread?

TurtleDude said:
Until you pay the same amount of dollars "the rich do" in taxes you have no standing to demand they pay even more.
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It shouldn't matter if I made the most money, if I made the Average, if I made the median or if I made the lowest income in America, I would still have a say in what tax revenues are used for .. sorry that's just the way it is, some very smart people made it this way to protect against the tyranny of the upper-class

TurtleDude said:
You need to stop worrying about what others make and stop scheming to justify more of their wealth being taken by the government.
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I am not worrying about what others make .. I am trying to help come up with solutions to make America a better country .. sorry if you thought otherwise
 
TurtleDude said:
still spewing the mob rule nonsense. tell us why people who don't have any skin in the game should have the same voting rights as those who pay a lot of taxes. and don't repeat the usual crap that "it is the law". give a reasoned argument why someone who lives off the public dole should have equal say about taxes and laws as someone who pays a million a year in taxes.
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The United States Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Less than fifty years ago the American people, acting through their duly elected representatives in both congress and the states spoke loudly with affirmative action making sure that voting would never be connected to taxation.Your argument is not with you - it is with the US COnstitution, the COngress of the United States, the various State governments who ratified the Amendment and the American people who supported it.

If you want a specific reasoned argument - here is the most direct I can come up with. Because if we did it your way, we would have nation led, governed ruled and voted in by elitist snobs who are only looking out for their own selfish narrow financial and social interests and the vast vast majority of the people would be like so much fodder and toilet paper for them. We would no longer have the greatest nation in the world.

Is that clear enough?
 
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MusicAdventurer said:
Um, that would be my money too my friend :) ... unfortunately, your position that only poor people support progressive taxation and semi-socialist programs informed by capitalism is a straw man-completely inaccurate .. hmm who else agrees with me .. oh yea all those other sensible taxpayers including Buffett



Who said anything about the living costs the wealthy choose to pay? I certainly did not .. are you sure it was in this thread?



It shouldn't matter if I made the most money, if I made the Average, if I made the median or if I made the lowest income in America, I would still have a say in what tax revenues are used for .. sorry that's just the way it is, some very smart people made it this way to protect against the tyranny of the upper-class



I am not worrying about what others make .. I am trying to help come up with solutions to make America a better country .. sorry if you thought otherwise
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I find it amusing that you income redistributionists lionize Buffett and think he wants to help you.
You just don't get that many of us tire of being told we have to buy into your plan and pay for it

socialists always claim that their schemes will make America better. they always want to force others to do the work though
 
haymarket said:
The United States Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Less than fifty years ago the American people, acting through their duly elected representatives in both congress and the states spoke loudly with affirmative action making sure that voting would never be connected to taxation.Your argument is not with you - it is with the US COnstitution, the COngress of the United States, the various State governments who ratified the Amendment and the American people who supported it.

If you want a specific reasoned argument - here is the most direct I can come up with. Because if we did it your way, we would have nation led, governed ruled and voted in by elitist snobs who are only looking out for their own selfish narrow financial and social interests and the vast vast majority of the people would be like so much fodder and toilet paper for them. We would no longer have the greatest nation in the world.

Is that clear enough?
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Your mom and apple pie faux patriotism gets nauseating after a while. You want your dem masters to win elections pure and simple and speaking of elitist snobs. that fits your party's leaders to a t
 
Jerry said:
The very existence of classes precludes the notion of absolute quality. As classes will always exist, equality is an unachievable goal. Therefore, abandon it.
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Who said anything about equality? Are you talking about equality of outcome? Who would stand for that? You? I certainly wouldn't. If you don't mind me asking, what is your reading comprehension level? I can write in lower levels, I'll just check my statements by pasting them into word and working them down to be more simple. If you have no problem with reading comprehension, then you would see that I have only ever supported equal opportunity .. this is different from equality of outcome. In addition, I wasn't even talking about equal opportunity in the post you replied to. Try reading it again.
 
TurtleDude said:
your stereotyping all lawyers gets old because you are mad that I have slapped around some of your poorly reasoned emotobabbling posts. Blaming me for John Edwards--who is a DEMOCRAT AS YOU ARE-is as silly as me noting you are no different than those cops in NYC who sodomized Abner Louima with a broom handle or the morons who shot some poor immigrant 42 times for no reason.

minimum wage is silly. it hurts the least talented from getting jobs. it is a payback for the unions who often tie their wage rates to the MW.

Y
btw I defend doctors in malpractice suits.
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youve never slapped around anyone on here all you ever done and still do is whine and say the same thing over and over....lawyers are a large part of whats milking this country dry...with class action lawsuits and malpractice and bankruptcy, the list is endless and all of america pays for all that...thats why most politicians are lawyers.....its a fact you cant dispute
You and handful of others want the rest of us to believe the POOR AND POWERLESS are milking the country and pigs at the trough CEOs that make hundreds of millions even when they fail are the victims of the damn poor and powerless....its a joke and the ones that spout it are the biggest joke...its such and outrageous lieing pile of crap...Its you that gets slapped around and looks foolish with your same whine and dance routine over and over
 
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lpast said:
youve never slapped around anyone on here all you ever done and still do is whine and say the same thing over and over....lawyers are a large part of whats milking this country dry...with class action lawsuits and malpractice and bankruptcy, the list is endless and all of america pays for all that...thats why most politicians are lawyers.....its a fact you cant dispute
You and handful of others want the rest of us to believe the POOR AND POWERLESS are milking the country and pigs at the trough CEOs that make hundreds of millions even when they fair are the victims of the damn poor and powerless....its a joke and the ones that spout it are the biggest joke...its such and outrageous lieing pile of crap
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this rant is getting more and more inane. You seem upset with your lot in life. It is not the fault of the rich that you are mad where you have ended up The rich don't owe you something because you believe you have failed to achieve

and lawyers are like any other profession some are scum, some are good people. Lots of them are far left dems
 
TurtleDude said:
I find it amusing that you income redistributionists lionize Buffett and think he wants to help you.
You just don't get that many of us tire of being told we have to buy into your plan and pay for it

socialists always claim that their schemes will make America better. they always want to force others to do the work though
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Wow that's your argument?

There's nothing of substance to even respond to .. I am really trying to find something right now but having a hard time.

OK, here's something you said "socialists always claim that their schemes will make America better" .. when did I say I was a socialist?

Oh, and I am sure that there are many people who don't want to pay taxes, I know its a bummer for me .. but that's the way society works, if you don't like it good luck finding a suitable place to do business where there are no taxes
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Wow that's your argument?

There's nothing of substance to even respond to .. I am really trying to find something right now but having a hard time.

OK, here's something you said "socialists always claim that their schemes will make America better" .. when did I say I was a socialist?

Oh, and I am sure that there are many people who don't want to pay taxes, I know its a bummer for me .. but that's the way society works, if you don't like it good luck finding a suitable place to do business where there are no taxes
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we get the fact that you think saying the rich won't be hurt by more taxes (when does that line of crap end-90%?) is a convincing argument. we get the fact you resent having a boss that fired you and you project your hatred onto every wealthy CEO.

The problem is way too many people don't pay taxes and yet they whine that others should pay even more
 
MusicAdventurer said:
It has been shown that the middle class pays the most crippling amount of income taxes and the middle class is relatively small. Crippling means that the ratio of living expenses to income tax makes it so that despite one’s increased income, the standard of living has not gone up much and there is still significant hardship. It is clear that most making above $250,000 are not crippled by income tax and instead cannot wrap their minds around the concept of progressive taxation (even though the wealthiest find loopholes out of such taxation). So, why is this the case? Why does the middle class shoulder the largest relative tax burden?
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I voted, the middle class do not have as much of an influence on politics as the wealthy.
 
SheWolf said:
I voted, the middle class do not have as much of an influence on politics as the wealthy.
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so you buy into the bs that the MC pays "crippling income tax levels"
 
TurtleDude said:
we get the fact that you think saying the rich won't be hurt by more taxes (when does that line of crap end-90%?) is a convincing argument.
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When does do the taxes end? When increasing them isn't needed anymore and when the taxes would be too large for companies to want to do business here. When do you think they should stop? Oh yea .. you want to tax the poor .. that sounds like a great strategy

TurtleDude said:
we get the fact you resent having a boss that fired you and you project your hatred onto every wealthy CEO.
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What are you talking about TurtleDude? Stop fantasizing

TurtleDude said:
The problem is way too many people don't pay taxes and yet they whine that others should pay even more
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If you are proposing that those that don't pay taxes should, you are insane. You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. You should stop whining that you only get around $1,110,000 per year to play with instead of $1,500,000 .. cry me a river. If you don't like the way tax brackets are set up, you should argue against them. I am all for getting rid of tax brackets and instituting a continuous incline type progressive tax system.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
When does do the taxes end? When increasing them isn't needed anymore and when the taxes would be too large for companies to want to do business here. When do you think they should stop? Oh yea .. you want to tax the poor .. that sounds like a great strategy



What are you talking about TurtleDude? Stop fantasizing



If you are proposing that those that don't pay taxes should, you are insane. You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. You should stop whining that you only get around $1,110,000 per year to play with instead of $1,500,000 .. cry me a river. If you don't like the way tax brackets are set up, you should argue against them. I am all for getting rid of tax brackets and instituting a continuous incline type progressive tax system.
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make a sound argument why I should pay more taxes than you do

and tell me what extra I get for it
 
Does anyone believe that all of the 47% who pay no income tax cannot pay any income tax?
 
TurtleDude said:
make a sound argument why I should pay more taxes than you do
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and tell me what extra I get for it[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, while you can fantasize as much as you want, this is not about you and me. This is about the betterment of America .. I'm not going to have a peeing contest with you over who makes more money than the other .. stop trying to caress your ego

What I will say is that I have made several ethically sound arguments for progressive taxation .. if you havn't been paying attention that's not my problem
 
TurtleDude said:
Does anyone believe that all of the 47% who pay no income tax cannot pay any income tax?
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Anyone can cut-off their own hand, but does that mean they should be forced to do so?
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Explain to me how this is not fair again? It never ceases to amaze me when people miss this obvious point. It boggles my mind when people think that a flat tax is somehow fair ... wow .... really? ... wow ...
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I'd be fine with a flat tax of 20% on anything over $20,000. There. Everybody's happy.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Unfortunately, while you can fantasize as much as you want, this is not about you and me. This is about the betterment of America .. I'm not going to have a peeing contest with you over who makes more money than the other .. stop trying to caress your ego

What I will say is that I have made several ethically sound arguments for progressive taxation .. if you havn't been paying attention that's not my problem
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again you cannot make a sound argument for why I should pay more than you.

I understand why a progressive tax scheme is politically attractive to politicians who deal with the fact that non taxpayers ahve the same votes as us who pay lots of taxes.

I am asking you why I should pay more for the same benefits. since you support that I want to hear a good argument. iF you were forced to pay for what you use, you would be less likely to demand more government. which of course is the idea. we need to get rid of the demand for more and more and more government

that demand comes from the fact that those who demand more and more government normally aren't tasked with paying for it
 
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MusicAdventurer said:
Anyone can cut-off their own hand, but does that mean they should be forced to do so?
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that's a silly response

are you saying that no one in that group can afford any income tax?
 
Sensibility said:
I'd be fine with a flat tax of 20% on anything over $20,000. There. Everybody's happy.
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works for me=but that would castrate the ability of many politicians to buy votes by promising one group they can have more and more and only the top bracket will be raised to pay for it.

it also means that just about everyone would have to pay more taxes when government spends more and that would be deleterious to the election hopes of big spenders
 
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