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Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

Why is the middle class the most crippled by income tax? Select all that apply

  • Allowing many people to have a shot at being uber-wealthy is dangerous

    Votes: 1 3.1%

  • Making the uber-wealthy share the load would be bad for the economy

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • The middle class do not have as much of an influence on politics as the wealthy do

    Votes: 24 75.0%

  • The idea that the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax is a myth

    Votes: 9 28.1%

  • A few wealthy, a few more middle class and many lower class citizens is best

    Votes: 2 6.3%
  • Total voters
    32
MusicAdventurer said:
I hope you're not lumping me into your "socialist" categorization .. I have not problem with people amass great wealth

I do have a problem with a system that does not afford equal opportunity

I am also opposed to any system that would try to drain tax money out of turnips

Finally, I am for any programs that allow people live and to make a living wage
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I am for people paying for what they use and if they cannot-not demanding others pay even more

if you cannot pay for your share of government as it now exists you should not be demanding even more government
 
TurtleDude said:
libs who are envious of the wealthy always resort to that silly argument

tell me what do I get for paying so much more than you do?

you seem to think that if someone can afford it, they have a duty to pay and pay and pay
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Last time I checked, liberals and lower-class are not synonymous

Therefore, how can an upper-class liberal be envious of a greedy wealthy businessman?

Finally, we have gone over this several times .. we should feel free to live in a country that (while not meeting the grade equal opportunity wise) allows the great wealth accumulation that it does .. stop complaining, there's nothing to complain about
 
TurtleDude said:
I am for people paying for what they use and if they cannot-not demanding others pay even more

if you cannot pay for your share of government as it now exists you should not be demanding even more government
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There are many things that people will disagree on as far as spending goes in a democracy, that is one of the prices of democracy-people having to pay for what they do not want, while also paying for what they do want .. it all evens out
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Last time I checked, liberals and lower-class are not synonymous

Therefore, how can an upper-class liberal be envious of a greedy wealthy businessman?

Finally, we have gone over this several times .. we should feel free to live in a country that (while not meeting the grade equal opportunity wise) allows the great wealth accumulation that it does .. stop complaining, there's nothing to complain about
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did you tell blacks who lived under Jim Crow to stop complaining because their standard of living is better than those living in African dictatorships? Did you tell gays to stop whining about laws against sodomy and gay marriage because in islamofascist states they are stoned?

if you aren't paying as much taxes as someone else you have absolutely no credibility or standing to tell them they ought to pay more.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
There are many things that people will disagree on as far as spending goes in a democracy, that is one of the prices of democracy-people having to pay for what they do not want, while also paying for what they do want .. it all evens out
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too many people have representation without taxation. if voting was tied to taxation, those who support progressive income taxes would soon be voted out of office

later
 
TurtleDude said:
did you tell blacks who lived under Jim Crow to stop complaining because their standard of living is better than those living in African dictatorships? Did you tell gays to stop whining about laws against sodomy and gay marriage because in islamofascist states they are stoned?
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completely inapplicable analogy - you didn't fool this juror

TurtleDude said:
if you aren't paying as much taxes as someone else you have absolutely no credibility or standing to tell them they ought to pay more.
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I know that's what you believe, but its not the way it is, its not the way it should be and I hope it never is that way
 
TurtleDude said:
too many people have representation without taxation. if voting was tied to taxation, those who support progressive income taxes would soon be voted out of office

later
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Fortunately, anyone can vote .. its one of the few things we as citizens have left and pales in comparison to the power of corporations

Fortunately some very intelligent people realized that everyone should be able to vote regarding certain issues and for certain candidates .. thats the way it is, and I hope thats the way it stays

later
 
TurtleDude said:
its funny that you equate my disagreement with the PIT-which I fully understand (remind me of your legal training and how many tax law courses you took) as not understanding. The PIT allows politicians to buy votes by only imposing high taxes on a small group.

I think people should own what they can afford

sorry socialists, I don't have a problem with the way income is distributed in this country. If you want to own more than make yourself more competitive and stop whining for the government to give you someone else's property
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You supported the trickle down economics that have lowered the income of most of the country and then have the gall to complain about the result of your actions, while taking no responsibility yourself. Typical position of a spoiled brat who inherited his money.

When we upgrade to a trickle up economy, people will once again be able to afford to buy the things they need. Sorry fascists, your wet dreams of a society that is willing to tolerate your greed are coming to an end.
 
MusicA wrote "I think the middle class have carried our country on its back for too long, its time for the wealthy to start picking up some slack ."
This was just one article of many I found. So explain to me how your statement is true?

The Tax Foundation - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data

"The top-earning 5 percent of taxpayers (AGI over $159,619), however, still paid far more than the bottom 95 percent. The top 5 percent earned 34.7 percent of the nation's adjusted gross income, but paid approximately 58.7 percent of federal individual income taxes."

So the top 5% rich people provided almost 60% of the federal income tax collected. That left about 40% for the rest of us., except don't forget almost 47% of people filing paid no federal income tax. While we may complain about high taxes, the numbers don't add up that the majority of "rich" are getting away without paying.

Go ahead and look at hitting the "rich" more. You should also look at entitlement programs, aid to other countries, and pet projects your local Congress person brings home to the district. Bottom line, want lower taxes, cut spending, reduce our debt.
Our Federal tax system needs overhauled and made simplier. Loopholes need to be looked at. Deductions need to be looked at.

We all need to share in funding the govt. We should also expect the govt to use the dollars given to them wisely. I am not sure that has happened in the last 10 years or more.
 
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mike2810 said:
MusicA wrote "I think the middle class have carried our country on its back for too long, its time for the wealthy to start picking up some slack ."
This was just one article of many I found. So explain to me how your statement is true?

The Tax Foundation - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data

"The top-earning 5 percent of taxpayers (AGI over $159,619), however, still paid far more than the bottom 95 percent. The top 5 percent earned 34.7 percent of the nation's adjusted gross income, but paid approximately 58.7 percent of federal individual income taxes."

So the top 5% rich people provided almost 60% of the federal income tax collected. That left about 40% for the rest of us., except don't forget almost 47% of people filing paid no federal income tax. While we may complain about high taxes, the numbers don't add up that the majority of "rich" are getting away without paying.

Go ahead and look at hitting the "rich" more. You should also look at entitlement programs, aid to other countries, and pet projects your local Congress person brings home to the district. Bottom line, want lower taxes, cut spending, reduce our debt.
Our Federal tax system needs overhauled and made simplier. Loopholes need to be looked at. Deductions need to be looked at.

We all need to share in funding the govt. We should also expect the govt to use the dollars given to them wisely. I am not sure that has happened in the last 10 years or more.
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How many times do I need to explain it! Read some previous posts before you jump in .. please!!! Its not about total amount paid ... its about the relative crippling effect it has on those paying it. Its about the ratio of living expenses to taxes paid.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
How many times do I need to explain it! Read some previous posts before you jump in .. please!!! Its not about total amount paid ... its about the relative crippling effect it has on those paying it. Its about the ratio of living expenses to taxes paid.
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And it ultimately boils down to you wanting to punish success. God forbid the concept of a man determining on his own what he should spend his money on.

I don't give a good hot damn about what you think is "crippling". The fact is that your argument is ultimately based on jealousy. When you make the money, you can determine how much you want to have it taxed or given to government. Don't expect the rich to float you along.

I just get really sick and tired about people who complain about having nothing when they are the chief factor in why that is so.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
How many times do I need to explain it! Read some previous posts before you jump in .. please!!! Its not about total amount paid ... its about the relative crippling effect it has on those paying it. Its about the ratio of living expenses to taxes paid.
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Again, you're flat out ignoring the fact that the system doesn't work like you say it does in those ridiculous little analogies you're posting. Those "crippling" taxes don't exist at the income levels you keep citing. You've provided absolutely no legitimate evidence of your hyperbolic claims and you keep running through this thread acting like you're making some profound revelation. You're wrong. Period. Accept that, read a few articles...or better yet, go look at a few websites (IRS, BOL, etc) and do some research so you'll actually understand what you're talking about. Somebody at or near poverty will not be paying "crippling taxes".

If you made a legitimate argument based on legitmate numbers and included legitimate information from the current system, you might have a leg to stand on. As it is, you made a dummy argument purely to suit your unfounded claims and refuse to accept reality. You can mock the points other people make all day, but until you use facts to make yours they're just as foolish as anything you find disagreeable (if not more).
 
MusicAdventurer said:
How many times do I need to explain it! Read some previous posts before you jump in .. please!!! Its not about total amount paid ... its about the relative crippling effect it has on those paying it. Its about the ratio of living expenses to taxes paid.
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Ok, so please don't be so touchy. Maybe you should have just said your tired of the middle class paying at the rate they do on federal income tax.
Here is the thing. If you want less taxes, expect the govt to spend less. I was mearly pointing out that the "rich" pay quite a large percentage of federal income tax. I have also pointed out their is a large sector that pays nothing in federal income tax. I can think of quite of few areas that can/could be cut back that the Congress spends money on.

Heck, I can't itemize and guess fall into the middle class income bracket. Would I like to pay less, you bet. Yet I know that unless federal spending is reduced, paying less is not realistic. Hopefully the economy will pick back up down the road and generate more income for the feds. Even when that happens, Congress really needs to reduced wastefull spending and reform a lot of programs.
 
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MusicAdventurer said:
ts not about total amount paid ... its about the relative crippling effect it has on those paying it. Its about the ratio of living expenses to taxes paid.
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Gipper said:
And it ultimately boils down to you wanting to punish success.
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You have a real reading comprehension problem to interpret MA's comment about the ratio of living expenses to taxes paid as wanting to punish success.

Or is it you cannot reason out that it is harder for someone that pays higher portion of their living wage on taxes then it is for someone who is not struggling to pay living expenses?
 
Gipper said:
And it ultimately boils down to you wanting to punish success.
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Ha! Straw man

Gipper said:
God forbid the concept of a man determining on his own what he should spend his money on.
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what are you talking about? I have never suggested anything that would go against this

Gipper said:
I don't give a good hot damn about what you think is "crippling".
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Unfortunately, by definition, what I showed exactly that with a flat tax, the tax burden on the poor would be much more painful than the tax burden on the wealthy; there's no way to get around that fact

Gipper said:
The fact is that your argument is ultimately based on jealousy.
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There's the ol straw man again

Gipper said:
When you make the money, you can determine how much you want to have it taxed or given to government. Don't expect the rich to float you along.
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Unfortunately, when it comes to taxes, everyone has to compromise on what they pay for, its the only workable way

Gipper said:
I just get really sick and tired about people who complain about having nothing when they are the chief factor in why that is so.
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This may be true for some people, but not for all. For you to make such a generalized statement is mighty presumptuous. Many of us who pay taxes (and many that don't) believe that a governmental system that allows people to live through governmental assistance, while still encouraging/rewarding them to do better, is the most humane while still economically sound system. Unfortunately, our current system encourages people to stay on welfare due to abrupt welfare cutoff income levels.
 
tessaesque said:
Again, you're flat out ignoring the fact that the system doesn't work like you say it does in those ridiculous little analogies you're posting. Those "crippling" taxes don't exist at the income levels you keep citing. You've provided absolutely no legitimate evidence of your hyperbolic claims and you keep running through this thread acting like you're making some profound revelation. You're wrong. Period. Accept that, read a few articles...or better yet, go look at a few websites (IRS, BOL, etc) and do some research so you'll actually understand what you're talking about. Somebody at or near poverty will not be paying "crippling taxes".
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If you made a legitimate argument based on legitmate numbers and included legitimate information from the current system, you might have a leg to stand on. As it is, you made a dummy argument purely to suit your unfounded claims and refuse to accept reality. You can mock the points other people make all day, but until you use facts to make yours they're just as foolish as anything you find disagreeable (if not more).[/QUOTE]

Again you continue to not pay attention to what I am saying. I am well aware that we currently do not have a flat tax and that we have welfare safety nets. However, people have been arguing that a flat tax is the thing to do and I responded with that example explaining how it is not the right thing to do. Are we on the same page now? Read back if you want, its all there.
 
mike2810 said:
Ok, so please don't be so touchy. Maybe you should have just said your tired of the middle class paying at the rate they do on federal income tax.
Here is the thing. If you want less taxes, expect the govt to spend less. I was mearly pointing out that the "rich" pay quite a large percentage of federal income tax. I have also pointed out their is a large sector that pays nothing in federal income tax. I can think of quite of few areas that can/could be cut back that the Congress spends money on.
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Government spending cuts would not be sufficient to reduce the deficit (although I agree that some are needed), simply increasing the tax rate by a few percentages on the most wealthy would be significant and the wealthy would not even feel it. Most righty's are just arguing over an irrelevant and pointless principle that is unethical in nature.

mike2810 said:
Heck, I can't itemize and guess fall into the middle class income bracket. Would I like to pay less, you bet. Yet I know that unless federal spending is reduced, paying less is not realistic. Hopefully the economy will pick back up down the road and generate more income for the feds. Even when that happens, Congress really needs to reduced wasteful spending and reform a lot of programs.
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Don't let the republican propaganda fool you; its a dirty trick that plays on people's inability to understand certain economic realities
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Government spending cuts would not be sufficient to reduce the deficit (although I agree that some are needed), simply increasing the tax rate by a few percentages on the most wealthy would be significant and the wealthy would not even feel it. Most righty's are just arguing over an irrelevant and pointless principle that is unethical in nature.



Don't let the republican propaganda fool you; its a dirty trick that plays on people's inability to understand certain economic realities
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why do you keep pretending you can speak for those you want to soak with more taxes? you assume that those you wish to punish have the same spending patterns as you do. You are just making stuff up.

and you miss a key point. we are in the mess we are in because too many people expect too much government that they don't pay for.
 
TurtleDude said:
why do you keep pretending you can speak for those you want to soak with more taxes? you assume that those you wish to punish have the same spending patterns as you do. You are just making stuff up.

and you miss a key point. we are in the mess we are in because too many people expect too much government that they don't pay for.
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Frivolous lawsuits, lawyers milking and draining the country dry out of greed...same with corporations and thier lawyers working tirelessly for HUGE fees to assure GE doesnt pay a dime in taxs and of course the lawyer politicans that protect the American Bar Association from tort reform...that would save the country billions.
WHen you get LAWYERS like now Indicted John Edwards who is just one of thousands Malpractice lawyers amassed 150,000,000 suing doctors which in turn COSTS all americans who have to pay for it....bankruptcy lawyers who hawk on tv ads come to me ill make you DEBT free the rest of america can pay for you and me.
Thats whats milking the country NOT THE POOR...not the people that YOU dont even want to have a minimum wage protection...its the RICH that milk the country and always have been.....you say the same thing over and over ad nauseum I guess you hope and pray one day someone, anyone will believe you...lol...wont be me
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Government spending cuts would not be sufficient to reduce the deficit (although I agree that some are needed), simply increasing the tax rate by a few percentages on the most wealthy would be significant and the wealthy would not even feel it. Most righty's are just arguing over an irrelevant and pointless principle that is unethical in nature.



Don't let the republican propaganda fool you; its a dirty trick that plays on people's inability to understand certain economic realities
Click to expand...

Please provide creditable links to back up your claims.
 
lpast said:
Frivolous lawsuits, lawyers milking and draining the country dry out of greed...same with corporations and thier lawyers working tirelessly for HUGE fees to assure GE doesnt pay a dime in taxs and of course the lawyer politicans that protect the American Bar Association from tort reform...that would save the country billions.
WHen you get LAWYERS like now Indicted John Edwards who is just one of thousands Malpractice lawyers amassed 150,000,000 suing doctors which in turn COSTS all americans who have to pay for it....bankruptcy lawyers who hawk on tv ads come to me ill make you DEBT free the rest of america can pay for you and me.
Thats whats milking the country NOT THE POOR...not the people that YOU dont even want to have a minimum wage protection...its the RICH that milk the country and always have been.....you say the same thing over and over ad nauseum I guess you hope and pray one day someone, anyone will believe you...lol...wont be me
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your stereotyping all lawyers gets old because you are mad that I have slapped around some of your poorly reasoned emotobabbling posts. Blaming me for John Edwards--who is a DEMOCRAT AS YOU ARE-is as silly as me noting you are no different than those cops in NYC who sodomized Abner Louima with a broom handle or the morons who shot some poor immigrant 42 times for no reason.

minimum wage is silly. it hurts the least talented from getting jobs. it is a payback for the unions who often tie their wage rates to the MW.

btw I defend doctors in malpractice suits.
 
TurtleDude said:
why do you keep pretending you can speak for those you want to soak with more taxes?
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I speak as a tax paying American who has the right to vote and express my opinions on what I feel is best for my country.

If the majority of the uber-wealthy don't want to spare a few percentages, cry me a river.

TurtleDude said:
you assume that those you wish to punish have the same spending patterns as you do. You are just making stuff up.
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This "punishment" straw man really does not help your case

I never said anything about anyone's spending patterns .. pay attention .. read a little, it helps

TurtleDude said:
and you miss a key point. we are in the mess we are in because too many people expect too much government that they don't pay for.
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actually, I believe that is due to greedy business men making bad deals in addition to government corruption via special interest groups padding the pockets of our government officials
 
MusicAdventurer said:
It has been shown that the middle class pays the most crippling amount of income taxes and the middle class is relatively small. Crippling means that the ratio of living expenses to income tax makes it so that despite one’s increased income, the standard of living has not gone up much and there is still significant hardship. It is clear that most making above $250,000 are not crippled by income tax and instead cannot wrap their minds around the concept of progressive taxation (even though the wealthiest find loopholes out of such taxation). So, why is this the case? Why does the middle class shoulder the largest relative tax burden?
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The very existence of classes precludes the notion of absolute quality. As classes will always exist, equality is an unachievable goal. Therefore, abandon it.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
I speak as a tax paying American who has the right to vote and express my opinions on what I feel is best for my country.

If the majority of the uber-wealthy don't want to spare a few percentages, cry me a river.



This "punishment" straw man really does not help your case

I never said anything about anyone's spending patterns .. pay attention .. read a little, it helps



actually, I believe that is due to greedy business men making bad deals in addition to government corruption via special interest groups padding the pockets of our government officials
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socialists are always generous with someone else's money. they take credit for distributing wealth that others earned.

You really aren't learned enough as to the rich and their costs of living to speak with such arrogance towards those who actually pay far more of the taxes than you do. Until you pay the same amount of dollars "the rich do" in taxes you have no standing to demand they pay even more.

You need to stop worrying about what others make and stop scheming to justify more of their wealth being taken by the government.
 
Jerry said:
The very existence of classes precludes the notion of absolute quality. As classes will always exist, equality is an unachievable goal. Therefore, abandon it.
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the entire thread is based on an idiotic assumption-that the middle class pay a "crippling" amount of income tax. that is utter bovine excrement
 
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