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Do you prefer Border Control or Amnesty for illegals

Zyphlin said:
Horrible question, because one doesn't preclude the other.

My option would be secure the border. Its what I feel like we absolutely need to do first nad foremost.

I'm fine with discussing forms of "amnesty" at some point after that, but no before. But they're not muturally exclusive.
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I agree, I agree, I agree...CLOSE THE BORDER stop our bleeding
 
Zyphlin said:
Horrible question, because one doesn't preclude the other.

My option would be secure the border. Its what I feel like we absolutely need to do first nad foremost.

I'm fine with discussing forms of "amnesty" at some point after that, but no before. But they're not muturally exclusive.
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I understand and even sympathize with that position.

However, the reason why so many illegal aliens try to get past our border is because immigration and migration is so bureaucratic and expensive. This is what causes illegal immigrants to migrate illegally - because the legal routes are too difficult for most foreigners to navigate.

So I would have to say that stricter border control would have to come about at the same time as immigration reform. Dealing with the latter will exponentially help in dealing with the former.
 
Tucker Case said:
By "close the border" do you mean that you oppose all immigration?
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No I dont mean that at all. We have to stop the insanity of anyone of any mindset and intentions just running over the border. Criminals, Drug Cartels, Terrorists, we have no idea who comes in here not only by the month week or day but by the minute.
The lets feel sorry for them goes out the window when you consider all the american victims and the cost to us WHICH WE CANT AFFORD ANYMORE. The we need the labor goes out the window...because we have the ability to adjust the amount of LEGAL IMMIGRATION we allow so we can control it to a degree.
There are absolutely NO reasons that make any sense to let this rape of our border and country and in many cases our citizens continue the way it is.
 
lpast said:
No I dont mean that at all. We have to stop the insanity of anyone of any mindset and intentions just running over the border. Criminals, Drug Cartels, Terrorists, we have no idea who comes in here not only by the month week or day but by the minute.
The lets feel sorry for them goes out the window when you consider all the american victims and the cost to us WHICH WE CANT AFFORD ANYMORE. The we need the labor goes out the window...because we have the ability to adjust the amount of LEGAL IMMIGRATION we allow so we can control it to a degree.
There are absolutely NO reasons that make any sense to let this rape of our border and country and in many cases our citizens continue the way it is.
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Ah, I see. Typically "close the borders" implies that nobody gets in (or out, for that matter).

The one thing I would add is that, to my knowledge, terrorists have never entered the US illegally. They tend to come here legally and then overstay their visas (in the cases where they were here "illegally"). Bringing up terrorism when discussing illegal immigration is relatively pointless because terrorism is an unrelated issue to illegal immigration, at least where the borders are concerned.

Overstaying one's visa is a different matter which would require a totally different solution than securing the borders.
 
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Tucker Case said:
Ah, I see. Typically "close the borders" implies that nobody gets in (or out, for that matter).

The one thing I would add is that, to my knowledge, terrorists have never entered the US illegally. They tend to come here legally and then overstay their visas. Bringing up terrorism when discussing illegal immigration is pointless because terrorism is pretty much unrelated to illegal immigration, at least where the borders are concerned.



Overstaying one's visa is a different matter which would require a totally different solution than securing the borders.
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To your knowledge or mine or the govts unless they arent admitting it...that doesnt mean terrorists havent gotten through...its not like its reallly a hard thing to do...I believe theres a very good chance terrorists have passever over our mexican border.
Terrorists aside, illegal immigration is a scourge that is not only dividing the country and OUR OWN CITIZENS...its costing us tons we just cant afford and should be going to americans...its time it stopped.
 
lpast said:
To your knowledge or mine or the govts unless they arent admitting it...that doesnt mean terrorists havent gotten through...its not like its reallly a hard thing to do...I believe theres a very good chance terrorists have passever over our mexican border.
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Appeal to fear fallacies are fallacies.

It's far easier to enter the country legally and overstay one's visa than it is to enter illegally. Even with the increased scrutiny at airports.

Crossing the border illegally is difficult. Astronomically more difficult than getting on an airplane is.

P.S. If terrorists were trying to enter illegally, they would probably be smart enough to use the Canadian border since it is far easier to do so.
 
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Tucker Case said:
Appeal to fear fallacies are fallacies.

It's far easier to enter the country legally and overstay one's visa than it is to enter illegally. Even with the increased scrutiny at airports.

Crossing the border illegally is difficult. Astronomically more difficult than getting on an airplane is.



P.S. If terrorists were trying to enter illegally, they would probably be smart enough to use the Canadian border since it is far easier to do so.
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Ok I agree, but that isnt the real issue...illegal immigration is right tuck :} But I stand by my statement that you nor I nor the govt may know if terrorists have entered over the mexican border or not
 
lpast said:
Ok I agree, but that isnt the real issue...illegal immigration is right tuck...
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Exactly my point. The fallacious appeal to emotion was a disservice to a serious discussion on the issue.


But I stand by my statement that you nor I nor the govt may know if terrorists have entered over the mexican border or not
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And I will maintain that this is not a valid logical argument.
 
The way we are approaching this issue, as we are with many other issues, seems to be done primarily out of fear and not out of reason. We can't even get this debate off the ground before we get the fear-mongering out of it.

Oh, and I gotta love the subtle racism in the use of the word "illegals." Where in the law does it say that a person is illegal--not their actions, but their very persona, breaks the law?
 
Phys251 said:
Oh, and I gotta love the subtle racism in the use of the word "illegals." Where in the law does it say that a person is illegal--not their actions, but their very persona, breaks the law?
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I use the term "illegals". I'll even use that term to describe my father, who was an illegal himself when he first came here from Ireland. I'm openly "pro-illegal".

And, just so you know, accusing people of racism for using the word "illegals" actually means the accuser is racist, IMO.

Illegal immigrants are not one race. There are illegal immigrants from every race, religion, and creed.
 
Tucker Case said:
I use the term "illegals". I'll even use that term to describe my father, who was an illegal himself when he first came here from Ireland. I'm openly "pro-illegal".

And, just so you know, accusing people of racism for using the word "illegals" actually means the accuser is racist, IMO.

Illegal immigrants are not one race. There are illegal immigrants from every race, religion, and creed.
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LOL, I've been called a lot of things, but racist? That's been awhile. Was wondering when someone was gonna blindly try to put that label on me.

Come on, man, you're a self-professed socialist. You should know better. When a person's very persona is what becomes illegal and not their actions, we have a serious problem. And guess where the immigrants that some Caucasian Americans hate come from?

That said, I do agree that there is more than one nation that sends its people to this great nation of ours. Now the trick is what to do with them all, which is the entire point behind this debate.
 
Phys251 said:
Come on, man, you're a self-professed socialist. You should know better.
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Just so you know, my lean is "socialist" as a joke. I've always screwed with my lean since none of the options accurately describe me. It might be "very conservative" tomorrow.

When a person's very persona is what becomes illegal and not their actions, we have a serious problem.
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Personally, I like using the term while describing a former illegal (my father) who became a small businessman and citizen that paid more in taxes in his lifetime than the majority of those who would choose to hate him for how he entered the country. I also use the term while promoting the value of illegals while denouncing many of our native-born citizens. I even use anti-amnesty research to make that particular argument, which is fun.

I also make the point that all immigrants, both legal and illegal, have done far more to deserve to be in this country than most native-born Americans have because, unlike the native-born, immigrants have to work hard to get here (and we are a country that values the effort put into achieving something, no?).

Native-born people didn't do **** to deserve their status. They are just lucky through accident of birth. Some rectify that by serving in the military, but most do not. That makes those people less than illegals in my eyes (I am in this particular group myself).



And guess where the immigrants that some Caucasian Americans hate come from?
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Who cares what country they come from? It's not their race which drives the hate.

That said, I do agree that there is more than one nation that sends its people to this great nation of ours. Now the trick is what to do with them all, which is the entire point behind this debate.
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Nations do not send their people here. People choose to leave their nations in order to earn a better life in the US through hard work and determination. In order to figure out "what to do with them all" we first need to have a realistic understanding of what they are doing with themselves.

There is a popular myth that gets spread that illegal immigrants are lazy people leeching off of society. But in truth, the reverse is true. They work their asses off and have little to no access to tax monies in general. Their American-born children have some access to such monies, but overall they use far fewer resources than the majority of natural born citizens do, while also contributing to the tax pool. Essentially, they pay more than they take.
 
Tucker Case said:
Just so you know, my lean is "socialist" as a joke. I've always screwed with my lean since none of the options accurately describe me. It might be "very conservative" tomorrow.



Personally, I like using the term while describing a former illegal (my father) who became a small businessman and citizen that paid more in taxes in his lifetime than the majority of those who would choose to hate him for how he entered the country. I also use the term while promoting the value of illegals while denouncing many of our native-born citizens. I even use anti-amnesty research to make that particular argument, which is fun.

I also make the point that all immigrants, both legal and illegal, have done far more to deserve to be in this country than most native-born Americans have because, unlike the native-born, immigrants have to work hard to get here (and we are a country that values the effort put into achieving something, no?).

Native-born people didn't do **** to deserve their status. They are just lucky through accident of birth. Some rectify that by serving in the military, but most do not. That makes those people less than illegals in my eyes (I am in this particular group myself).





Who cares what country they come from? It's not their race which drives the hate.



Nations do not send their people here. People choose to leave their nations in order to earn a better life in the US through hard work and determination. In order to figure out "what to do with them all" we first need to have a realistic understanding of what they are doing with themselves.

There is a popular myth that gets spread that illegal immigrants are lazy people leeching off of society. But in truth, the reverse is true. They work their asses off and have little to no access to tax monies in general. Their American-born children have some access to such monies, but overall they use far fewer resources than the majority of natural born citizens do, while also contributing to the tax pool. Essentially, they pay more than they take.
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Nations do not send their people here. People choose to leave their nations in order to earn a better life in the US through hard work and determination. In order to figure out "what to do with them all" we first need to have a realistic understanding of what they are doing with themselves.

There is a popular myth that gets spread that illegal immigrants are lazy people leeching off of society. But in truth, the reverse is true. They work their asses off and have little to no access to tax monies in general. Their American-born children have some access to such monies, but overall they use far fewer resources than the majority of natural born citizens do, while also contributing to the tax pool.


Theres alot wrong with your statements above but let me start with Hailing Your father...hes a fine example of an american...unfortunately he represents a tiny minute minority of illegals that ever become successful such as he.

Nations do not send their people here...not true, Cuba opened up their mental institutions and prisons and sent them to the USA.
I never said Illegals are all lazy...some are the ones that come here with criminal intent and have no intention of ever working and please dont put your head in the sand and try and say there arent illegals coming here with criminal intent. Illegals having no access to tax money is a bold faced misconception...just in healthcare alone they access BILLIONS upon billions in emergency room costs, those costs are borne by every single american taxpayer, then theres the cost of public education with its free breakfast and free lunch programs that can cost 20 grand per illegal student.. There are states with utter idiot politicians that are passing laws giving illegals more of our tax money like california giving them free money to go to college.
While I have no hatred of illegals whatsoever, I hate that our country is broke, that we have almost 10% of fellow americans out work...that we have the teaparty attacking seniors and the poor and giving illegals a total pass...pisses me off....it needs to stop
 
Where is the poll?
 
lpast said:
Nations do not send their people here...not true, Cuba opened up their mental institutions and prisons and sent them to the USA.
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Which represents a problem with legal immigration for silly political reasons, but this one-time exception to the rule (although the US government just allowed themselves to get screwed in a deal of their own making on that one) doesn't disprove the rule. And it is a rule that nations do not send their people here. Peop[le come here of their own accord.

I never said Illegals are all lazy...
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I don't recall saying that you did.

some are the ones that come here with criminal intent and have no intention of ever working and please dont put your head in the sand and try and say there arent illegals coming here with criminal intent.
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They are small minority of the total. So small as to be of little to no import in the discussion. This argument is like saying that criminals use guns illegally, so guns should be illegal. It's nothing more than an appeal to fear, which is invalid logic.


Illegals having no access to tax money is a bold faced misconception...just in healthcare alone they access BILLIONS upon billions in emergency room costs, those costs are borne by every single american taxpayer, then theres the cost of public education with its free breakfast and free lunch programs that can cost 20 grand per illegal student..
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Then why does every study seem to show the opposite is true? That Illegals cost less than they give?

And why is it that opponents of amnesty will actually use these same data to show that amnesty is a bad idea because illegals are far less of a drain than citizens and legal residents of similar income levels (thus, granting amnesty would cause them to cost more)?

The thing is, they do access billions, but they also return billions in sales tax, income tax, and the numerous other taxes that they do pay. They also cannot get tax returns so the ones that pay their income taxes actually pay at a much higher rate than people of similar income levels).

They cost less than most citizens do and did more to earn their right to be here.



There are states with utter idiot politicians that are passing laws giving illegals more of our tax money like california giving them free money to go to college.
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I'm all for states deciding what to do with their own money (once it leaves the federal coffers it becomes the state's money to do with as they please). I'm all for state's rights.

In fact, I believe that residency should be the sole purview of the states and that the federal government usurped state authority with judicial activism in the 1870's in order to make residency a federal issue, despite not having been expressly granted power over residency by the constitution.



While I have no hatred of illegals whatsoever, I hate that our country is broke, that we have almost 10% of fellow americans out work...that we have the teaparty attacking seniors and the poor and giving illegals a total pass...pisses me off....it needs to stop
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The teaparty types appear to be 100% in favor of the abuse of federal power that is US immigration law. I guess their small government mantra only extends towards issues they hold dear. Many of them also want to make illegals the scapegoat for our economic mess, but the truth is, the best solution to our "illegal problem" is our ****ty economy. immigration, both legal and illegal has been down ever since our economy took a ****. As we sink further into oblivion, they'll keep leaving.

And then some new scapegoat will be found to blame all of our self-imposed woes on.
 
There has to be a limit on the amount of people allowed to come into a country. And people should only be allowed in if they can speak the language.
 
Let em in so they can work and pay taxes. But take away all the government handouts and then we won't be spending more just because more people are here.
 
I don't like he choices IMO - I thought that border control and amnesty were different from one another in terms of which aspect of illegal immigration they deal with - as in one dealt with our borders, the other dealt with the illegals we had - in thus, there would be many options based on various opinions on the open-ness or lack thereof of the border, and what to do with the illegals whom are caught, etc.



Dillon said:
And people should only be allowed in if they can speak the language.
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What about people legally immigrating, whom are trying - and are either struggling or successfully learning the language? W
 
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Neither. I prefer employER sanctions.
$5000 for hiring an illegal.
Double for second offense.
Jail for third.

They will WALK BACK over the border.

Cut the border patrol in half.
Cut USA unemployment.
Raise actual/effective minimum wage.
 
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