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Evolution

Does evolution happen


  • Total voters
    70
People need to understand that creationism does not mean evolution can't also be happening. The Lord God set things in motion and gave us free will to make our own minds up about things. He doesn't demand that we believe in Jesus he just presents us the opportunity to believe and I believe that the same is true of this issue. The Lord God gives us information and the ability to decide for ourselves, and I have done that and I believe the Lord God set evolution in motion when he created the heavens ans the earth and even any E.T.s there might be.

The Bible does not tell us there are no others out there.

Remember the Bible is the word of God as seen by men who are relating what they believe many years after the events depicted took place and we all know things can be misinterpreted by man.
 
Remember the Bible is the word of God as seen by men who are relating what they believe many years after the events depicted took place and we all know things can be misinterpreted by man.

So, the bible is literal except when it isn't? How do you know what parts are true and which ones aren't?
 
No, you do that to show that a hypothesis is a theory. NO theory becomes law anymore. The word is just not used. To make it simpler, just put "theory" where you think "law" should go, and "hypothesis" where you think "theory" should go. That's the technical terms that scientists use.

Relative time is not a law. It was determined within the last century or so, after people stopped using the word law. Now it is a theory. Theory does not mean it is untested. An idea only becomes a theory after many many experiments with consistent results.

What I say really IS true. That's the terminology.

How did they prove that times is relative? Go read Einstein's experiments, and some of Hawking's. They can explain it far better than I.

Where is your evidence that scientists do not use the word Law anymore?

Oh and by the way, Einstein derived relativity through thought experiments, not physical ones.
 
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I will give you the benefit of the doubt. You are too busy to produce evidence that shows that scientists do not use Law anymore, right?

Any person that does problem solving for a living, whether it is a doctor, computer technician, or even a plumber, have various strategies when dealing with problems. I started my professional career in Information Technology. I've troubleshooted Windows and Linux environments, networks, and domains. I also have some experience with DDoS, and I even was a NOC technician for a datacenter.

The point of this, is to show you I practiced the very concept I am about to share. It is usually the most efficient method to go about a problem that you are unsure of the answer to, to eliminate as many possibilities as you can. The really good problem solvers have a very high capacity for divergent thinking, which is exactly what thinking of possibilities exercises. As people get better, not only are they able to create all the various possibilities, but they are able to put odds next to each possibility in their head.

And so, to possibilities. I am not sure what you would have presented me in regards to evidence. If however, you were going to present me a timetable, whereas, scientists have not derived a Law in x amount of years, that is not evidence.

It is evidence on the sheer difficulty to take a theory and make it into a law. As it should be! Scientific laws are undeniable truths to this universe, and so it should be very difficult in order to upgrade so to speak a theory into a law. You also have to take into consideration of our current times. Anyone who lives in the present, has the luxury to study the breakthroughs of the past. Through the study of steam engines during the industrial revolution, engineers stumbled upon the laws of thermodynamics. I'm sure that whole process took a whole lot of work, and now we can look them up on wikipedia.

And where this knowledge, comes more possibilities. Theories that are being thought up currently, have not been thought up before. Well, some. I watched a documentary on Ancient Egyptians called The Pyramid Code I think. It is controversial, but one of the things that it shared was that the Ancient Egyptians had a hieroglyph for string theory. So it seems, we weren't the first to think that one up. But these theories with their vast creativity, also have vast implications, and vast difficulties in obtaining emperical evidence for their very nature. It might be the very nature of the theory itself that does not allow it to become law.

An easy one is Evolution. We have a fossil record, no one denies that. But in order to put this theory and make it a law, we would have to witness ourselves the evolution of all life. Not just microbes. How can humanity do that if their lifespan averages about 70 years? There are two methods I can think of. Have an evolutionary biologist drink the fountain of life, or come up with a method that accurately depicts life at our current time and come up with a storage system that can store this information for eons. Not sure if that is possible yet.

Or with string theory. Even though the math works out, and it provides answers to some of the oldest dilemmas. Why does light show properties of both a particle and a wave? String theory makes this a little more clear. Regardless, how can scientists prove without a shadow of a doubt that particles are just vibrating strings? They maybe able to one day with different technology, but right now, it is not possible.

Scientific Laws are a part of the scientific method. They are Truths to this universe. In which case, you can apply these theories to their logical conclusion, because they are Truths. If you were to create a method that could discover these Truths, you would want to make sure these Truths are indeed Truths, right? Because it would be damaging to us, if we perceived something as a Truth and it wasn't.

Just because something is a theory, doesn't mean it isn't right. All laws started as theories! It is just, at that point in time in history, scientists had the knowledge and technology to empirically verify those theories. Scientists could still do this today! The problem, as our knowledge becomes more sophisticated, so do our theories so to speak, which makes proving them a lot more difficult. But as history has shown us, nothing is impossible.
 
I think you are under a few misconceptions about evolution, and human evolution in particular. We share a common ancestor with chimpanzees and bonobos, and if you go further back, all the great apes.

A species evolving does not necessarily mean that new species will evolve with greater brain capacity and cognitive ability than the preceding species. Evolution does not mean that species "improve" in the sense that humans seek to improve themselves. It means that members of a species that are better adapted to surviving in a given ecosystem will out compete members of that species that are not as well adapted for that ecosystem. This process continues until speciation occurs and a new species arises that is better adapted for that ecosystem (the old species may still be around as well).

For example, its a common misconception that of all the great apes, we are the pinnacle of evolution. In fact, chimps are more evolved than we are.

Chimps 'more evolved' than humans - life - 16 April 2007 - New Scientist

Thriving in the tropical forest ecosystems of equatorial Africa required different adaptions for chimps than thriving on the African Savannah did for us. We evolved with a higher brain capacity and as endurance athletes. Humans are some of the greatest endurance athletes in the animal kingdom. An ultra runner can run a horse into the ground. High endurance and high intelligence served humans and our ancestors quite well as hunter gatherers on the African Savannah. However, in a rain forest ecosystem, endurance is not nearly as advantageous as strength, particularly upper body strength. So we took different evolutionary paths. However, that does not mean that we are the most evolved.
I've seen chimps push buttons and get a banana. That's pretty smart stuff.
 
I would like to see examples of evolution at work.

Apropos, I would like to see abiogenesis in this discussion, seeing as evolutionists seem to demand it is the beginning of life.
 
I would like to see examples of evolution at work.

And I want to see God's foreskin.

Something tells me that pointlessly impossible and uninformed requests like these largely go unfulfilled, though.


seeing as evolutionists seem to demand it is the beginning of life.

This is false.
 
And I want to see God's foreskin.

Something tells me that pointlessly impossible and uninformed requests like these largely go unfulfilled, though.




This is false.

If it is pointlessly impossible, then why have I experienced the athiest's persistent ridicule of the religious? If the religious are so irrational, then what explanation do athiests and evolutionists have for the beginning of life? If I must explain it simpler: if God did not create life, what did?

If evolutionists do not demand that abiogenesis is the beginning of life, then what is? God?

Perhaps instead of snideness, you could offer something more... substantial, perhaps, in relation to the start of life? Otherwise, I'd be left to think that both the religious and the athiests are, well, bound to nothing but beliefs.
 
If it is pointlessly impossible, then why have I experienced the athiest's persistent ridicule of the religious? If the religious are so irrational, then what explanation do athiests and evolutionists have for the beginning of life? If I must explain it simpler: if God did not create life, what did?

If evolutionists do not demand that abiogenesis is the beginning of life, then what is? God?

Perhaps instead of snideness, you could offer something more... substantial, perhaps, in relation to the start of life? Otherwise, I'd be left to think that both the religious and the athiests are, well, bound to nothing but beliefs.

Why do evolution vs creationism debates always end up in debates over the existence of some power that is beyond our understand? i.e. debates over whether or not a "deity" exists? last I checked science never proclaims things as absolute facts and instead declares them as lying on differing levels of evidence based support. right now evolution is the best explanation for how organisms came to be and there is little to no understanding of how matter came to be in the first place. science doesn't attempt to support the theory of a deity existing because there is currently no way to measure related variables, i.e. things are too subjective. at least that's how I understand it.
 
If it is pointlessly impossible, then why have I experienced the athiest's persistent ridicule of the religious?


If you experience ridicule after comments like that one, it is because you don't have a basic understanding of the theory you seek to question the legitimacy of. Evolution is not likely to be something you will ever see "at work" yourself because it takes far more than a single human life-span for it to work. It's like saying "I'd like to see planetary formation at work, myself." It is a pointlessly impossible and uninformed request.

If the religious are so irrational, then what explanation do athiests and evolutionists have for the beginning of life?

Why do you seem to think that an explanation for the beginning of life would be needed in order to maintain rationality. Just because an explanation exists does not mean it is a rational one. In fact, irrational explanations are quite common.

When the actual answer to the question is unknown, the most rational response is "I don't know".

If I must explain it simpler: if God did not create life, what did?

I have two issues with this question.

One: You are asking a loaded question. The word "create" requires a will in order to occur. To rephrase the question so that it is not loaded, you can ask something like "if God did not create life, how did life come to exist?"

Two: The second issue I have with the question is it's lack of relevance. A lack of alternative theories to explain a phenomenon doesn't lend credibility to a false explanation, nor does an abundance of alternative explanations remove credibility from a true explanation. The question you ask is a pointless one because even if the answer is "I don't know" It won't make the God explanation any more true or false, nor will it make it any more or less rational.

This kind of question is also commonly used to set up an argument from incredulity fallacy as well

If evolutionists do not demand that abiogenesis is the beginning of life, then what is? God?

The best thing about having a belief system where one does not have a creation necessity (i.e. one does not have to believe that there must be a creator for all things) is that one does not have to fall prey to the circular logic inherent in the question of "what created the creator". The answer given to that question is invariably "The creator has always existed", which is circular when one has the starting premise of "everything that exists must be created".

When someone doesn't have that premise, though, it is possible to say "it has always existed" without falling prey to circular logic. I believe that ecofarm gave a perfect example of this kind of theory earlier in this thread (although it may have been a different one). Life on earth may have come from somewhere else, but life in the universe might have been here for as long as the universe has been here. Just because a lot of one group may believe a certain thing doesn't mean that the group demands it.

Perhaps instead of snideness, you could offer something more... substantial, perhaps, in relation to the start of life?

The most rational answer to the origin of life question is "I don't know. I don't even know if it actually has an origin, in truth. Who knows how life on Earth got here. We do know that it's diversity on Earth can be explained by evolution, though."

Otherwise, I'd be left to think that both the religious and the athiests are, well, bound to nothing but beliefs.


What's wrong with that?
 
If it is pointlessly impossible, then why have I experienced the athiest's persistent ridicule of the religious? If the religious are so irrational, then what explanation do athiests and evolutionists have for the beginning of life? If I must explain it simpler: if God did not create life, what did?

If evolutionists do not demand that abiogenesis is the beginning of life, then what is? God?

Perhaps instead of snideness, you could offer something more... substantial, perhaps, in relation to the start of life? Otherwise, I'd be left to think that both the religious and the athiests are, well, bound to nothing but beliefs.

There is nothing wrong with saying "We do not know" - in fact just the opposite, there is everything right in saying this.

There are hypothesis, but to be able to test them is nearly impossible - especially when trying to say a particular hypothesis IS how life came about on earth. Even if we did somehow make life in a test tube at best all that would show is that it is possible to create life (or even more simplified and baby steps substitute self replicating molecules for life), this still would not be a definitive answer to whether or not it was how life came about here to begin with.

So no there is nothing to offer regarding how life started, and your request for something more is impossible to fulfill (without inserting a "belief"). At best all that can be done is to postulate "this is how life MAY have started". It is folly, and thoroughly anathema to the scientific method to insert an answer that is not tested or testable and say "this is how it came about" The answer is "WE DO NOT KNOW" and this is the ONLY acceptable and proper scientific answer.

In response to your last statement..

Otherwise, I'd be left to think that both the religious and the athiests are, well, bound to nothing but beliefs.

It is not a religious versus atheist thing, it is religion versus science here, and science is NOT synonymous with "atheist". So lets change this to "Otherwise, I'd be left to think that both the religious and [science is], well, bound to nothing but beliefs.

So let me see if I get this right.. you ask a question where ANY answer trying to say this is how life came about would be inserting <unsubstantiated> beliefs, yet the answers that would not be "bound to nothing but beliefs" ("I do not know" or "I cannot answer") - are what would leave you to think that it is "bound to nothing but beliefs"? You have this entire thing set up bassackwards.

Not having an answer when there is none, and admitting so instead of trying to force an answer does not put one on the same "belief" field as inserting an answer. Your statement and your "warning" is ridiculous, no matter what is or is not provided you would think the same (erroneous or not) - you have your conclusion already made.. regardless of any answer or a non answer given I am fairly confident that you would view it as support of your preconceived notion anyhow.
 
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I would like to see examples of evolution at work.

Apropos, I would like to see abiogenesis in this discussion, seeing as evolutionists seem to demand it is the beginning of life.

You've had examples of evolution explained to you a dozen times in other threads. Don't pull the same time wasting crap here again.

Also... Volcanic lightning may have sparked life on Earth - environment - 16 October 2008 - New Scientist << A few year old article in which scientists actually abiogenesis'ed. It's not theoretical. We can actually do it.
 
You've had examples of evolution explained to you a dozen times in other threads. Don't pull the same time wasting crap here again.

Also... Volcanic lightning may have sparked life on Earth - environment - 16 October 2008 - New Scientist << A few year old article in which scientists actually abiogenesis'ed. It's not theoretical. We can actually do it.

I am not sure how abiogenesis is being defined here, but my understanding was that life would be derived from inorganic materials. Under this definition, the experimental results described in your article do not suffice. They are a step in showing the possibility of abiogenesis, but they do not by themselves demonstrate it.
 
You've had examples of evolution explained to you a dozen times in other threads. Don't pull the same time wasting crap here again.

Also... Volcanic lightning may have sparked life on Earth - environment - 16 October 2008 - New Scientist << A few year old article in which scientists actually abiogenesis'ed. It's not theoretical. We can actually do it.

The thing that I am most impressed with is the phenomenal photo of the lightning around the volcano!! I try to imagine myself as an ignorant tribesman, and the explanations I might come up with for such a sight!
 
I am not sure how abiogenesis is being defined here, but my understanding was that life would be derived from inorganic materials. Under this definition, the experimental results described in your article do not suffice. They are a step in showing the possibility of abiogenesis, but they do not by themselves demonstrate it.

They produced amino acids from inorganic material. Amino acids then combine to form RNA. That doesn't just happen in this experiment. It happens all the time, without any additional input from an outside source. They left out explaining the second part because it's supposed to be obvious.

Besides, even if the results of their experiment did not produce complete organic life forms, it shows that it is clearly possible to do so. The only difficulty is in finding the correct conditions. But over a billions years of history on this planet, clearly those conditions occurred. This is more evidence than any proponent of intelligent design has ever had to offer.
 
They produced amino acids from inorganic material. Amino acids then combine to form RNA. That doesn't just happen in this experiment. It happens all the time, without any additional input from an outside source. They left out explaining the second part because it's supposed to be obvious.
Amino acids do not generally simply combine to form RNA. Also, if RNA did form, there would still be the problem of self replication and metabolism. This experiment only showed the first step, and next steps are not a given. They must be shown before we can declare abiogenesis is supportable, and then we must show that the conditions for it did in fact exist on Earth. At that point, I will consider terrestrial abiogenesis adequately supported to be accepted. I will be fascinated, but not surprised, if and when this happens.
Besides, even if the results of their experiment did not produce complete organic life forms, it shows that it is clearly possible to do so. The only difficulty is in finding the correct conditions. But over a billions years of history on this planet, clearly those conditions occurred. This is more evidence than any proponent of intelligent design has ever had to offer.
It is definitely support for abiogenesis, and it is definitely more support than ID has, which is not hard. Because ID has nil.
 
Amino acids do not generally simply combine to form RNA. Also, if RNA did form, there would still be the problem of self replication and metabolism. This experiment only showed the first step, and next steps are not a given. They must be shown before we can declare abiogenesis is supportable, and then we must show that the conditions for it did in fact exist on Earth. At that point, I will consider terrestrial abiogenesis adequately supported to be accepted. I will be fascinated, but not surprised, if and when this happens.

It is possible that I got a little over-excited about the results of this experiment. But I think it holds great promise. It may not demand that life emerged this way, but it certainly leads us in that direction. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing what happens next!
 
It is possible that I got a little over-excited about the results of this experiment. But I think it holds great promise. It may not demand that life emerged this way, but it certainly leads us in that direction. I'm certainly looking forward to seeing what happens next!

In related news today, they discovered what they think (some are convinced) are 3.4 billion year old fossilized bacteria. It would have eaten sulfur, if it is really bacteria, due to the composition of their environment as extrapolated from the medium in which they were found. I do think this kind of finding helps to point the way to thinking about conditions when life would have emerged. Most broadly, if this can be confirmed, we would know that life didn't emerge in any of the conditions present later than 3.4 billion years ago. I believe it does also perhaps dovetail nicely with the notion that life might have begun near volcanoes.

Another musing I have about the fitness of bacteria for survival. We humans would not likely survive, let alone evolve out of such conditions. The capacity bacteria have for adaptation through mutation is astounding, and this has been demonstrated conclusively. I think we can infer, therefore, that once bacteria is present on a planet, it would have the capacity to hang in there, even under hostilely changing conditions. Just give it a moment of geological time, and it will find a way.

Complex species, by contrast, are rather delicate. Change conditions too quickly and they seem to collapse under the stress. We also don't seem to find complex organisms in the most hostile environments here on earth. But, bacteria? They reproduce merrily along.

Just my impressions.
 
Evolution is NOT directed.

Your definition of directed is suspect.

There is no one directing it and the processes do not arise in response to direction. A mutation arises randomly. Whether the mutation is beneficial, neutral or harmful is often times dependent on the environment.

You just contradicted yourself. You first say it's not directed, and then you said that the method for evolution is dependent on the environment. The environment is directing the selection for and against genes. Therefore, evolution is directed. Your problem is that your definition requires some form of intelligence you recognize. There is absolutely no logical reason why that must be the only form of direction.

For instance, if an individual develops a specific mutation near the EPAS1 gene then they'll be better able to regulate the hemoglobin in their blood while in low oxygen environments. If the mutation arises in a person living in a low altitude area, then the environment will not select for the mutation, however if the person lives in a high altitude area then the mutation will be selected. The environment in which the mutation arises is a random process. It is not directed.

Do you even read what you posted? You again claim it's all random....and then say that the environment is directing the selection for and against genes.

You really should refrain from allowing intuition to guide your thinking on technical issues.

You should really refrain from insulting people when you just proved their arguments.

 
But you understood the point. Really, nothing is random, just chaos that appears random.

Exactly. Hence why those who claim evolution is random are fools. Or more likely they simply do not understand the underlying principles of science. Considering the level of dumb here, it's probably both.
 
You just contradicted yourself. You first say it's not directed, and then you said that the method for evolution is dependent on the environment. The environment is directing the selection for and against genes. Therefore, evolution is directed.

The concept that you're scratching around for is responsive. Not directed.
 
Exactly. Hence why those who claim evolution is random are fools. Or more likely they simply do not understand the underlying principles of science. Considering the level of dumb here, it's probably both.

Your definition of directed is suspect. Direction implies a consciousness which is doing the directing, especially in the context of this thread (see the Poll and a dictionary definition of 'directed'). It has already been explained many times that the randomness people should be considering should be limited to the randomness of gene mutation.

Riverdad is not contradicting himself. He is being careful not to imply the consciousness that is indicated in the OP, while still accounting for the effect of the environment on the genes that flourish.

Semantic games are stupid and it is rich that the one playing them calls others 'stupid'.
 
Why do evolution vs creationism debates always end up in debates over the existence of some power that is beyond our understand? i.e. debates over whether or not a "deity" exists? last I checked science never proclaims things as absolute facts and instead declares them as lying on differing levels of evidence based support. right now evolution is the best explanation for how organisms came to be and there is little to no understanding of how matter came to be in the first place. science doesn't attempt to support the theory of a deity existing because there is currently no way to measure related variables, i.e. things are too subjective. at least that's how I understand it.

From my rudimentary understanding, to believe in evolution seems to also mean you believe in abiogenesis. Others have claimed that is not so, so their views are a bit obscure to me in regards to the beginning. That power is believed to be the precursor of evolution/creationism. God or The Big Bang(abiogenesis). The many evolutionists and atheists I have talked to seem to declare that believing in God is irrational and that the abscence of His presence is proof that God does not exists. This leaves me wroth. To me, logic neither proves nor disproves God. Bias does. Evolution may be a better explanation in terms of evidence, but it annoys me when people assume evolution is the de facto belief that isn't to be questioned.

With me, I connote evolution with abiogenesis. If there's been a procession of larger animals from smaller animals, what was before the littlest organism came to be? In my mind, evolution deands a beginning. An origin. The Big Bang? An obscure spark? Question the source and the whole procession in my mind becomes questionable. f one cannot tell me where the Big Macs came from, why should I trust and enjoy them?

Evolution is questionable to me. I believe God created mn and woman. However, I suppose it's not impossible that in God's design certain animals were able to adapt in certain ways. Every answer you recieve ten more take its place.


If you experience ridicule after comments like that one, it is because you don't have a basic understanding of the theory you seek to question the legitimacy of. Evolution is not likely to be something you will ever see "at work" yourself because it takes far more than a single human life-span for it to work. It's like saying "I'd like to see planetary formation at work, myself." It is a pointlessly impossible and uninformed request.

What exactly is a basic understanding, here? Iirc, evolutionists are still quarreling amongst themselves. If the experienced are quarreling, what does that say about us repeaters? I merely ask for examples of evolution supposedly at work. If no examples can be given, then it makes me wonder.

Why do you seem to think that an explanation for the beginning of life would be needed in order to maintain rationality. Just because an explanation exists does not mean it is a rational one. In fact, irrational explanations are quite common.

You seem to use "maintain rationality" in a careless way, since what exactly is rationality and how does one maintain it according to whom? That brain candy aside, Thus why I ponder the "rational" explanations of evolution.

When the actual answer to the question is unknown, the most rational response is "I don't know".

Hence my purpose to bring people to the great "I don't know." We don't know as much as we think we do, for certain.

I have two issues with this question.

One: You are asking a loaded question. The word "create" requires a will in order to occur. To rephrase the question so that it is not loaded, you can ask something like "if God did not create life, how did life come to exist?"

Two: The second issue I have with the question is it's lack of relevance. A lack of alternative theories to explain a phenomenon doesn't lend credibility to a false explanation, nor does an abundance of alternative explanations remove credibility from a true explanation. The question you ask is a pointless one because even if the answer is "I don't know" It won't make the God explanation any more true or false, nor will it make it any more or less rational.

The Big Bang has been considered the beginning of life. Thus why I used the word "create." Semantics aside, I ask questions for the sole purpose of understanding.

This kind of question is also commonly used to set up an argument from incredulity fallacy as well



The best thing about having a belief system where one does not have a creation necessity (i.e. one does not have to believe that there must be a creator for all things) is that one does not have to fall prey to the circular logic inherent in the question of "what created the creator". The answer given to that question is invariably "The creator has always existed", which is circular when one has the starting premise of "everything that exists must be created".

When someone doesn't have that premise, though, it is possible to say "it has always existed" without falling prey to circular logic. I believe that ecofarm gave a perfect example of this kind of theory earlier in this thread (although it may have been a different one). Life on earth may have come from somewhere else, but life in the universe might have been here for as long as the universe has been here. Just because a lot of one group may believe a certain thing doesn't mean that the group demands it.



The most rational answer to the origin of life question is "I don't know. I don't even know if it actually has an origin, in truth. Who knows how life on Earth got here. We do know that it's diversity on Earth can be explained by evolution, though."


Interesting. At least you seem to not be binded and blinded by a belief. You say "I don't know" which, in my eyes, is the correct response because we truly don't know and any deviance from that is mere assumption.

What's wrong with that?

A belief is nothing but a belief. There is no absoluteness. Saying I believe in "this" is no more relevant than saying I believe in "that".

There is nothing wrong with saying "We do not know" - in fact just the opposite, there is everything right in saying this.

There are hypothesis, but to be able to test them is nearly impossible - especially when trying to say a particular hypothesis IS how life came about on earth. Even if we did somehow make life in a test tube at best all that would show is that it is possible to create life (or even more simplified and baby steps substitute self replicating molecules for life), this still would not be a definitive answer to whether or not it was how life came about here to begin with.

So no there is nothing to offer regarding how life started, and your request for something more is impossible to fulfill (without inserting a "belief"). At best all that can be done is to postulate "this is how life MAY have started". It is folly, and thoroughly anathema to the scientific method to insert an answer that is not tested or testable and say "this is how it came about" The answer is "WE DO NOT KNOW" and this is the ONLY acceptable and proper scientific answer.

In response to your last statement..



It is not a religious versus atheist thing, it is religion versus science here, and science is NOT synonymous with "atheist". So lets change this to "Otherwise, I'd be left to think that both the religious and [science is], well, bound to nothing but beliefs.

So let me see if I get this right.. you ask a question where ANY answer trying to say this is how life came about would be inserting <unsubstantiated> beliefs, yet the answers that would not be "bound to nothing but beliefs" ("I do not know" or "I cannot answer") - are what would leave you to think that it is "bound to nothing but beliefs"? You have this entire thing set up bassackwards.

Not having an answer when there is none, and admitting so instead of trying to force an answer does not put one on the same "belief" field as inserting an answer. Your statement and your "warning" is ridiculous, no matter what is or is not provided you would think the same (erroneous or not) - you have your conclusion already made.. regardless of any answer or a non answer given I am fairly confident that you would view it as support of your preconceived notion anyhow.

My preconcieved notion is that we don't know. It's crushing really, because it throws all beliefs in turmoil. No one can absolutely prove their claims.

Simply, we don't know for sure. (I read your whole post and I appreciate your dedication in understanding things)


You've had examples of evolution explained to you a dozen times in other threads. Don't pull the same time wasting crap here again.

Also... Volcanic lightning may have sparked life on Earth - environment - 16 October 2008 - New Scientist << A few year old article in which scientists actually abiogenesis'ed. It's not theoretical. We can actually do it.

I am only human; forgetfullness happens. Though, those examples, the ones I can remember, were not 100% absolute in regards to certainty. Logical fallacy, "ad hominem", noted.

I'll look into that article, understand it, and then test it in a poll/thread to see what others more experienced think about it.
 
I am only human; forgetfullness happens. Though, those examples, the ones I can remember, were not 100% absolute in regards to certainty. Logical fallacy, "ad hominem", noted.

I'm not attacking your viewpoints by attacking you. I'm just attacking you, because you're incredibly dishonest and ask the same questions over and over in these threads and continually ignore the answers. I've had to explain the scientific definition of "theory" to you several times, and you keep asserting that evolution requires abiogenesis. This isn't the first thread where these exact same points have been discussed over and over. No one learns anything if we have to backtrack with every new thread. Yet that's what you keep doing.
 
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