How do you feel about men’s versus woman’s rights to their babies?

evanescence said:

If a woman can end the pregnancy, it's only fair to allow the man a similar choice. What if he's not ready to be a father? As someone who experienced being abandoned as a child, I would have rather not even known the other parent at all. It was that painful.

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Or to have a parent who makes it clear you weren't wanted or you interrupted the life they had planned to lead for themselves. Forcing obligation on to somebody can be more harmful for the child long-term than the child being raised by a single parent with limited financial resources.

evanescence said:

If a woman can end the pregnancy, it's only fair to allow the man a similar choice. What if he's not ready to be a father? As someone who experienced being abandoned as a child, I would have rather not even known the other parent at all. It was that painful.

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I think the notion of men being able to end their parental rights should be more widespread and easily obtainable in situations like this. . . rather than forcing an abortion.

evanescence said:

If a woman can end the pregnancy, it's only fair to allow the man a similar choice. What if he's not ready to be a father? As someone who experienced being abandoned as a child, I would have rather not even known the other parent at all. It was that painful.

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Then men need to put down a cash deposit that would equal the amount of an abortion before having sex.

Regardless if a guy isn't ready to be a daddy, then he damn well better pony up for the cost of an abortion if the woman declares that she will abort if she gets pregnant and he still wants to play.

And the guy better make a very clear declaration BEFORE having sex that he won't in anyway participate in any expenses of a baby should she get pregnant.

Then if she still wants to do it...have fun and be willing to take on whatever the consequences.

Removable Mind said:

Then men need to put down a cash deposit that would equal the amount of an abortion before having sex.

Regardless if a guy isn't ready to be a daddy, then he damn well better pony up for the cost of an abortion if the woman declares that she will abort if she gets pregnant and he still wants to play.

And the guy better make a very clear declaration BEFORE having sex that he won't in anyway participate in any expenses of a baby should she get pregnant.

Then if she still wants to do it...have fun and be willing to take on whatever the consequences.

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If only everyone was mature and responsible

Removable Mind said:

Then men need to put down a cash deposit that would equal the amount of an abortion before having sex.

Regardless if a guy isn't ready to be a daddy, then he damn well better pony up for the cost of an abortion if the woman declares that she will abort if she gets pregnant and he still wants to play.

And the guy better make a very clear declaration BEFORE having sex that he won't in anyway participate in any expenses of a baby should she get pregnant.

Then if she still wants to do it...have fun and be willing to take on whatever the consequences.

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I totally support full disclosure, but life isn't perfect. Sometimes you have no idea what is best until the situation arises. I used to swear up and down I'd never do certain things but when the situation arose and the paths were in front of me the best option was the one I'd said I'd never take. I think it's obviously a conversation people need to have. My boyfriend (not ready for kids) knows if I get pregnant I'm keeping the baby. He also knows that I expect absolutely no committment from him unless he wants to make one. I'd prefer that he DID want to be involved, but I can't obligate him to that because I'm ready for something he isn't ready for. Of course, to prevent that issue we take precautions...but precautions don't always work as planned, either. And who knows? Maybe after the first sonogram, hearing the heartbeat he'll suddenly have something click and realize how awesome it will be when he's daddy...or maybe he'll freak out and think he can't handle it. Whatever his reaction, I'll have to accept it. I can't force his hand and allow him to resent me and the child for the next 18+ years.

Tigger said:

Why should he be able to just walk away? He wasn't interested in walking away from the act that created the child, why should he be able to just walk away from the child that was created? I'm not saying he has to be actively involved in the kid's life. In fact I think a lot of these kids would be better off if their dads weren't involved in their lives. However, there is still a financial responsibility there that should be required to be maintained.

The idea that I can get a woman pregnant and simply say... "I don't want the kid. I'll sign away my rights and then not be financially responsible." is disgusting to me. The idea that any Man would do something like that is just unthinkable. Of couse we have a lot of little boys masquerading as Men these days.

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yeah, it's nearly as unthinkable as the woman being able to say, "I don't want the kid so I'll just run down and get an abortion".

OscarB63 said:

yeah, it's nearly as unthinkable as the woman being able to say, "I don't want the kid so I'll just run down and get an abortion".

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It's not like it's some happy, wonderful joyous issue ot deal with.

I plunged into depression - and stayed there - when I was pregnant with our fourth child. . . there were numerous times where I wished I wasn't pregnant - but I had a lot of health and other complications. In fact, I've never had a 'normal' pregnancy where I wasn't in the hospital for a million reasons. . . I think my health issues taint my views completely.

evanescence said:

If a woman can end the pregnancy, it's only fair to allow the man a similar choice. What if he's not ready to be a father? As someone who experienced being abandoned as a child, I would have rather not even known the other parent at all. It was that painful.

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People are responsible for the consequences of their actions, whether they desired those consequences or not. The actions or inactions of others does not absolve them of their responsibilities.

This is a long-standing legal principle, enshrined in our laws. For some reason, some men think they deserve "special rights" when they screw

sangha said:

For some reason, some men think they deserve "special rights" when they screw

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this is rich. some men think they deserve the same rights as women when they screw. nothing special, just the same.

OscarB63 said:

this is rich. some men think they deserve the same rights as women when they screw. nothing special, just the same.

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Only if I get an orgasm every time I ****

Aunt Spiker said:

Only if I get an orgasm every time I ****

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then figure out how your **** works. why is it a man can cum no matter how ugly the girl is?

OscarB63 said:

this is rich. some men think they deserve the same rights as women when they screw. nothing special, just the same.

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Men have the same right to screw as women do.

Men have the same right to make medical decisions for themselves as women do

Men have the same right to not have others make their medical decisions for themselves without their consent

No one has the right to make medical decisions for others without the other persons consent

OscarB63 said:

then figure out how your **** works. why is it a man can cum no matter how ugly the girl is?

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That's just not true. Some men are indiscriminate. So are some women. Others....not so much

Men who think all men can get off with any female, no matter how ugly, should be kept away from farm animals and household pets

Removable Mind said:

NM, that's a broad brush statement above...

I love you, baby. I will be your man forever. I'll be there for you no matter what cuz I just love you so much. "NOW, GET THEM BRITCHES OFF"!

WHAT? Your pregnant!

That's bull****, you must have ****ed somebody else. That's not my kid. **** you, I'm out of here!

The man still shouldn't have to pay child support?

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Nope.

I don't make any exceptions for the woman's right to choose. None. Likewise, I won't make any exception with a man's right to decide whether he wants to be involved. People's rights are not conditional. And when we're talking about nearly 2 decades of financial servitude, I think getting to decide you fate on that is, indeed, a right.

I do, however, think there should be a contractual signing that, once signed, is binding. It should be signed before birth - somewhere around 3-4 months seems reasonable to me.

sangha said:

Men have the same right to screw as women do.

Men have the same right to make medical decisions for themselves as women do

Men have the same right to not have others make their medical decisions for themselves without their consent

No one has the right to make medical decisions for others without the other persons consent

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Not entirely true. With the exception of abortion, nobody under the age of 18 can consent for medical procedures without mutual parental consent. Why abortion is not included is disturbing to me; there are enough risks of complications and permanent damage from that procedure that the child should at least receive consent by proxy if a parent cannot be found or convinced to consent to the procedure.

tessaesque said:

Not entirely true. With the exception of abortion, nobody under the age of 18 can consent for medical procedures without mutual parental consent. Why abortion is not included is disturbing to me; there are enough risks of complications and permanent damage from that procedure that the child should at least receive consent by proxy if a parent cannot be found or convinced to consent to the procedure.

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True, but only because minors are considered incapable of giving consent.

And abortion isn't the same because under the law, a fetus is not a person. Under the law, a minor is a person, but a person who is unable to give consent. There's a difference there.

sangha said:

True, but only because minors are considered incapable of giving consent.

And abortion isn't the same because under the law, a fetus is not a person. Under the law, a minor is a person, but a person who is unable to give consent. There's a difference there.

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No, I think you misunderstand. The girl HAVING the abortion can do so without parental consent. An abortion is a medical procedure with risks and potential fatality. I'm talking about protecting the teenager through parental consent or consent by proxy, not the fetus.

sangha said:

Men have the same right to screw as women do.

Men have the same right to make medical decisions for themselves as women do

Men have the same right to not have others make their medical decisions for themselves without their consent

No one has the right to make medical decisions for others without the other persons consent

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what about all the other rights that are not medical? hmmm? :ssst:

sangha said:

That's just not true. Some men are indiscriminate. So are some women. Others....not so much

Men who think all men can get off with any female, no matter how ugly, should be kept away from farm animals and household pets

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spoken like you've had first hand experience

tessaesque said:

No, I think you misunderstand. The girl HAVING the abortion can do so without parental consent. An abortion is a medical procedure with risks and potential fatality. I'm talking about protecting the teenager through parental consent or consent by proxy, not the fetus.

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Ahhh, I see. That is an interesting point to bring up, but a minor female needs the permission of the courts to do so. She must have a compelling reason in order to get the courts approval, at least that's how I understand it. Not quite the same thing, but I am sympathetic to your argument there.

OscarB63 said:

what about all the other rights that are not medical? hmmm? :ssst:

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What other rights? Could you be more specific? Maybe post an actual argument?

sangha said:

Ahhh, I see. That is an interesting point to bring up, but a minor female needs the permission of the courts to do so. She must have a compelling reason in order to get the courts approval, at least that's how I understand it. Not quite the same thing, but I am sympathetic to your argument there.

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You know what - I have no clue about this. I think it changes state to state. I've heard of stories that are so odd - lik eareas where schools connect a pre-teen with an abortion dr and then have won cases that they didn't have to inform the parents of the situation . . . things like that.

sangha said:

And I would add, that no matter what the circumstances, both parents are responsible for supporting any child that is born, wanted or not.

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Why should a man be forced to pay for a child conceived by some slut at a massive gangbang any more than a woman should be forced to carry a child she conceived at that same gangbang? If she didn't want to be responsible for a child, she had plenty of options. Women today, with very few exceptions, have every opportunity to avoid pregnancy and/or childbirth. If you choose to have a child outside a committed relationship, that's your decision- and your responsibility. I can see the argument for child support following divorce, but if the man has never made a commitment to be involved with this woman, then he has no obligation to hang around or provide for her baby should she choose to have a child outside a committed relationship without his say. She's a big girl who needs no man, remember? She can make her own decisions in life- and be responsible for them. If it is her body alone and her decision alone, then it is also her responsibility alone. She doesn't get to turn around and play the helpless little female card and demand the man come to her rescue after she has made a unilateral decision to have a child outside a committed relationship. If this is a problem, maybe it's time to reconsider whether she should be making such decisions on her own in the first place. You can have the patriarchal paradigm of men providing for, making decisions for, and being responsible for the helpless woman or you can do away with that paradigm and embrace the independence and liberty of the woman alone. You can't have both. Either we are partners in this decision or we are not. With the unilateral power of determination and decision-making comes unilateral responsibility for that decision. If my hand is kept from the decision of my child's fate and my status as a parent, then your hand is stayed when you seek to take my wallet from my pocket, and my earned income from it, to fund your decision.

Polotick said:

I am unqualified to vote in this poll until such a time that I can become pregnant.

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Are you also unqualified to pay for a child until such time as you can make the determination as to whether a pregnancy proceeds forth and you become a parent?

sangha said:

What other rights? Could you be more specific? Maybe post an actual argument?

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been done...you ignored it. not going to waste my time reposting something that you will just continue to ignore