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What purpose did the tax cut for the wealthiest serve?

There are many political parties, but just two of them seem to be popular with the people. And there are sharp divisions between the two. One side believes in science and one side doesn't. One believes supporting the tax cuts for the wealthy and spending that benefits them, and the other supports programs for the working class and the poor, and wants to eliminate the tax cuts for the wealthy.

It is my hope that eventually there are third parties that are not too extreme to gain support with American people, or that eventually people become enlightened enough to support a green party. From what I've seen on the forums though, I'm not holding my breath.

Catawba, you need to remember though that there are folks from small towns - for instance - that vote GOP not because they're in favor of tax cuts for the rich, or that they hate poor people, or that they don’t care about social welfare, but more so because they don't like Washington taking money out of their towns and spending it ways that are often frivolous and wasteful thousands of miles away. They want small government and would like to be able to manage as many issues as they can on their own, and who can blame them?
 
Catawba, you need to remember though that there are folks from small towns - for instance - that vote GOP not because they're in favor of tax cuts for the rich, or that they hate poor people, or that they don’t care about social welfare, but more so because they don't like Washington taking money out of their towns and spending it ways that are often frivolous and wasteful thousands of miles away. They want small government and would like to be able to manage as many issues as they can on their own, and who can blame them?

I have not seen this small government that you speak of from the last 30 years of Republicans in office. Do you mean there are folks from small towns that will fall for the same double talk the GOP has been pitching for decades? No doubt, but they are not the ones that will decide the election.
 
I have not seen this small government that you speak of from the last 30 years of Republicans in office. Do you mean there are folks from small towns that will fall for the same double talk the GOP has been pitching for decades? No doubt, but they are not the ones that will decide the election.

You have a point there Catawba, the GOP sure does know how to spend money.

And Dick Cheney - That guy was an ***hole (just wanted to say this, even though it's kind of unrelated (but not totally)).
 
And Dick Cheney - That guy was an ***hole (just wanted to say this, even though it's kind of unrelated (but not totally)).

Ah, Dick Cheney. I cannot wait for tomorrow when my download of the pre-sale on my Nook will be available. It ought to be a good read.: 2wave:
 
Ah, Dick Cheney. I cannot wait for tomorrow when my download of the pre-sale on my Nook will be available. It ought to be a good read.: 2wave:

Should we be surprised with your announced fascination of assholes?
 
Ah, Dick Cheney. I cannot wait for tomorrow when my download of the pre-sale on my Nook will be available. It ought to be a good read.: 2wave:

Hmmm he use to live down the street from my parents house.
 
Should we be surprised with your announced fascination of assholes?

To be honest, I wouldn't mind giving that book a read. But at the same time I'm not giving a cent of my money to that dirtbag.

Can you believe it? CEO of Haliburton steps down, becomes the Vice President, invades Iraq,and awards Haliburton with no-bid contracts, all within a 3 year time span? To top it off, the company after making billions of money off of taxpayer money (for things like literally charging $100/load of laundry for each soldier), ships its operations off to the middle-east so it can avoid paying US taxes all together. What a sham!
 
I reject that nonsense

so does this guy

The Inequity of the Progressive Income Tax | Hoover Institution

Historically, the use of the benefits principle to advocate progression relied on the “protection theory” of benefits, which asserts that the government’s primary function is the protection of property. The theory focuses on income as property, and analogizes the protections of government to an insurance company that insures property against loss. Those who cite protection theory as an argument for progression assert that individuals with higher incomes should pay a disproportionately greater share of the cost of government than lower-income individuals because the higher-income group would have disproportionately more to lose if the protections of government were withdrawn. Implicit in this interpretation of the principle is not just that the value of benefits received from the government increases as income increases, but that it increases more rapidly than the rise in income. As we will see, the statement of the principle — payment of taxes in return for benefits — lends itself to widely varying interpretations.

When examined carefully, the “protection theory” interpretation of the benefits principle falls short in five different ways.


second interpretation of the benefits principle, and one that appears clearly to have more substance and more scholarly support, is that government benefits redound roughly equally to all people regardless of their income. More specifically, and as noted in the preceding paragraph, the value of benefits relating to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, including the protection of property, is essentially the same for all citizens. Thus, each person should share the costs of government equally, in which case the fairest tax would be per capita. This is essentially what Harry proposed to his brothers as the fairest way of dividing the costs of their street improvements.


You can read the rest, it pretty well destroys that claim of yours

I will read it, and respond back, but it is a courtesy on my part. It's your job to argue your positions.
 
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To be honest, I wouldn't mind giving that book a read. But at the same time I'm not giving a cent of my money to that dirtbag.

Can you believe it? CEO of Haliburton steps down, becomes the Vice President, invades Iraq,and awards Haliburton with no-bid contracts, all within a 3 year time span? To top it off, the company after making billions of money off of taxpayer money (for things like literally charging $100/load of laundry for each soldier), ships its operations off to the middle-east so it can avoid paying US taxes all together. What a sham!

All that death and debt to make some people more wealthy, and Clinton gets impeached for getting a blowjob.

Have you seen this video? It points out the irony as well as anything I've seen or heard:

*** WARNING ADULT LANGUAGE***

 
You don't like Cheney? Cool!
 
To be honest, I wouldn't mind giving that book a read. But at the same time I'm not giving a cent of my money to that dirtbag.

Can you believe it? CEO of Haliburton steps down, becomes the Vice President, invades Iraq,and awards Haliburton with no-bid contracts, all within a 3 year time span? To top it off, the company after making billions of money off of taxpayer money (for things like literally charging $100/load of laundry for each soldier), ships its operations off to the middle-east so it can avoid paying US taxes all together. What a sham!

was there another qualified bidder to Haliburton?

were there abuses? for sure. but what is interesting is those who (and I don't count you as one-not enough information) who whine the most about no bid contracts and "monopolies" are often those who are big fans of bigger government which of course is the uber example of no bid monopolies
 
was there another qualified bidder to Haliburton?

were there abuses? for sure. but what is interesting is those who (and I don't count you as one-not enough information) who whine the most about no bid contracts and "monopolies" are often those who are big fans of bigger government which of course is the uber example of no bid monopolies

I have found that anyone that tries to say no bid contracts are bad and uses the Haliburton case as an example never seems to have a clue what no bid contracts really are. In all cases it seems they have nothing more than common knowledge of the process in general and no knowledge of the individual case they brought up. Sad really.
 
Alright, TurtleDude. This is a probably thankless exercise, but at least I'll have it to refer back to if you ever accuse me of refusing to engage with you.

First, the basic premise of the protection theory is flawed. Government protections extend to much more than property. The Founding Fathers made clear their vision for America in the Declaration of Independence when they spoke of the “unalienable rights” of all Americans to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” There is no basis for believing that a low-income person’s life is worth more or less to an individual (as contrasted with an insurance actuary, an economist, or a jury assessing damages in a wrongful death case) than the life of a high-income person. The same is true for liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The American military and other protective agencies and institutions of government exist to protect and preserve these rights for all Americans equally, regardless of how rich or poor they are.

Saying that the progressive tax imposes more heavily on the life and happiness of the wealthy is a hazy philosophical objection and a subjective moral judgment, not a concrete fact. The concepts of "life" and "happiness" are too open ended for that to be the only possible inference one can draw from their inclusion in the Declaration.

Value judgments can't be true or false, since they are primordially positive/negative emotional responses, but they can be authentic (insightful, impartial, sincere) or inauthentic (close-minded, self-absorbed, dishonest). I don't consider the sensibility that a wealthy man's life and happiness are damaged by the progressive tax to be valid, because the sheer magnitude of his wealth, and the opportunities it gives him, ought to continue providing him with a capacity to have the first, and to pursue the second, without added difficulty. It would also add he was only able to engage in economic practices that enabled him to become wealthy because of a social order the government provided for him and the rest of the population. The progressive tax could have very well been an instrumental part of that, particularly if the industry he participates in is supported by subsidies drawn from the incomes of wealthy men participating in other industries.

Furthermore, arguing that the progressive taxation's silence on life or happiness amounts to a tacit admission of valuing the lower-incomes more than higher-incomes is a straw man. Proponents of the progressive tax don't generally talk about the because, due to their hazy philosophical nature, they are extremely irrelevant. We can't engineer any policy around a given person's moral sensibilities or their interpretations of Founder's intent, let alone a policy as important as the tax code.

Second, there is no persuasive support in the literature for the claim that higher-income people derive a disproportionately greater value from government protection of property than lower-income people. Some progression advocates have argued that government exists in large part to protect rich people from poor people, while poor people need no such protection. Thus, the value of the rich person’s protection is disproportionately greater than that afforded the poor. Perhaps this was true centuries ago in some feudal nations, but it is not now and never has been generally true in the United States. Others argue that insurance is priced according to risk as well as value, implying that high-value property is at greater risk of loss. While this notion has conceptual merit, it does not follow that property owned by high-income people is at greater risk than property owned by low-income people. In fact, the rich are more likely to engage in self-protection (e.g., build protective walls, install security systems, hire guards, etc.), which would result in reduced, not greater, risk. Seligman, Blum and Kalven, and others have examined the property protection arguments for progression and dismissed them as either untenably weak or without merit.

Some aspects of this objection are viable, particularly the notion that the property of the wealthy is not at greater risk than that of other people, but even that fails to amount to much of an objection when you pause and work it out. However, it misses the true depth of the insurance provided by government -- the government doesn't only protect value, its very existence plays a major formative role in creating it. That is to say, the order that government provides is what enables the confidence to engage in productive economic activities. Without government, the self-defense the wealthy engage in would be limited to beating off intruders with clubs, and their wealth would amount to a bigger cave, a larger fire, and a greater store of meat. Because without the order, security, and authentication given by defense forces, contract law, standardized currencies, and continual subsidies, human beings collectively wouldn't have had the confidence to invent and develop complex civilizations.

Third, this interpretation of the benefits principle overlooks the principle of marginal utility. If, as virtually all economists agree, the marginal utility of a dollar of income declines as income increases, then people would place a lower value on protecting their income as it rises. To accept protection theory as an argument for progression, one would have to assert that each additional dollar of income earned is worth more than the previous dollar of income, which is nonsensical.

That's a dishonest play on an economic concept, and ironically is itself nonsensical. The economic utility of individual dollars decreases the more of them you have, but that decline in the value of individual dollars doesn't result in a net loss of value on a person's overall capital. The individual value of a wealthy's man's dollars could drop as low as, say, 10% of a poor man's, but he still has exponentially more value because he possesses so many of them. In order for this objection to have any validity at all, the rich man would have to have less economic value from being rich than the poor man has from being poor, which is where the nonsense comes in.

Fourth, even if the protection argument had merit, it would, at best, argue for a proportionate rather than a progressive tax. To argue otherwise requires a belief that the price of property insurance increases faster than the value of the property (in this case, income), which is observably untrue. If the insurance analogy were applied, those with two times as much income or property would pay two times as much tax, which would be proportionate, not progressive. It’s no accident that “historically almost all exponents of benefit theory employed it to support proportion as against progression.

The problem is that this takes the insurance analogy too literally. There is no way to mathematically evaluate the economic value of the protection government confers because the government, its laws, and order are primordial antecedents to economic activity and the numbers that arise from it, including those of private insurance; the existence and actions of government affect economic value and performance in ways that cannot be evaluated numerically. We can't evaluate the exact economic influence the federal government's Cold War policies had, in the same way we can evaluate and put numerical values on the economic influence of a powerful insurance agency in the free market, because there aren't enough concrete examples for comparison (aka, how would have the economy transformed from the 50s to the 80s without the Cold War?).

We can come up with relative, qualitative, ideas, but the government and its influence over long periods of time are too large to pin down exact numbers. Far too many uncertain variables affecting far too many businesses and industries.

Note - you can come up with numerical values for government actions on a limited range of policies (aka, subsidizing or not subsidizing that particular industry), but not for its overall presence and administration over time.

Fifth, the analogy to an insurance company is specious. The costs of the military and police and fire departments are not equivalent to property and casualty insurance, in which the policy is priced in accordance with the value of the property insured. There is no material difference in the cost of protecting persons with high incomes or high-value property than that of persons with low incomes or low-value property. (In fact, the cost might be less, since persons with high income tend to reside in low-crime areas.) Accordingly, there would be no difference in the cost of these protections based on property value. Thus, under the protection theory, the fairest tax system would more logically be per capita.

We don't charge the wealthy more because it costs more to protect a wealthy man than a poor man on an individual basis. We charge them because wealthy men depend more on them (or rather, the order they provide). To be clear, it doesn't cost significantly more to protect a rich man's property from fire than a poor man's property, but the wealthy man suffers a greater loss in value from his $1,000,000.00 house and appliances than the poor man's $500.00 a month apartment and $2,000.00 in appliances.

However, more importantly, the wealth's man wealth and the power it gives him derive economic validity ONLY through the consent and complicity of the community, which they are less likely to give during, say, a socialist revolution; in that case, the money of the wealthy man is no good anywhere (even foreign countries, because the value of the currencies he possesses are devalued by the social unrest of the country he inhabits).
 
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I have found that anyone that tries to say no bid contracts are bad and uses the Haliburton case as an example never seems to have a clue what no bid contracts really are. In all cases it seems they have nothing more than common knowledge of the process in general and no knowledge of the individual case they brought up. Sad really.

Both you guys (Henrin, Turtledude) - was on a rant about Cheney. I don't like the guy, and I don't like Haliburton. I have many friends who are soldiers and who have served or are serving in Iraq who have spoken out of the many abuses of the company with our tax dollars.

I realize that there are purposes to 'no-bid' situations, no need to jump all over my use of the word..
 
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Both you guys (Henrin, Turtledude) - was on a rant about Cheney. I don't like the guy, and I don't like Haliburton. I have many friends who are soldiers and who have served or are serving in Iraq who have spoken out of the many abuses of the company with our tax dollars.

I realize that there are purposes to 'no-bid' situations, no need to jump all over my use of the word..

I don't recall mentioning Cheney. He has no relevance to me in this conversation
 
I don't recall mentioning Cheney. He has no relevance to me in this conversation

And by the way, I don't recall mentioning you mentioning Cheney. I was explaining that I was on a rant about Cheney and not the no-bid contracts. It was an effort to calm you both down from ranting about a topic which I was not ranting about.
 
And by the way, I don't recall mentioning you mentioning Cheney. I was explaining that I was on a rant about Cheney and not the no-bid contracts in an effort to calm you both down.

I see where your post was merely missing "I"

I am always calm here. We turtles are laid back creatures. You must have me confused with my snapping cousin. He's kind of a reptile tweaker
 
So what if the riches taxes are raised? What is going to happen?
 
Good enough reason for me right there! :sun

given the number of threads that have been started in the last 6 months whining about the rich, the obvious whiners and criers are not those who support free markets and wealth accumulation but rather the butt hurt egalitarian welfare socialists
 
given the number of threads that have been started in the last 6 months whining about the rich, the obvious whiners and criers are not those who support free markets and wealth accumulation but rather the butt hurt egalitarian welfare socialists

I actually only 3 of us here are socialists. Liberals love the free market.... Please continue tho TurtleDude you never answered my question if the riches taxes are raised what is going to happen?
 
if the riches taxes are raised what is going to happen?

Well, I would think that the first thing that would happen is that the wealthy would pay the taxes. I think they would pay their taxes just like the 47% who currently pay no income taxes would pay their taxes if they had to pay an income tax. Second, depending on the amount of the tax increase, it would probably cause harm to the employment picture as some of the "wealthy" are probably going to have to lay off a person or two so they don't have too much of a negative impact on their own life. Third, depending on how many people were let go because of the tax hikes, the government probably would not receive the amount of money they anticipated as some would no longer be paying taxes. Fourth, the deficit might increase because the amount of revenue might be lowered and the expenses might increase due to unemployment insurance. Fifth, there may be less money available to purchase goods; therefore, retail sales may decline and further harm our already fragile economy.

That's a few things that could happen.
 
given the number of threads that have been started in the last 6 months whining about the rich, the obvious whiners and criers are not those who support free markets and wealth accumulation but rather the butt hurt egalitarian welfare socialists

No one, I repeat, no one, whines like you do.

Here is just a smattering of some of your golden oldie have-pity-on-the-rich whines:


"everyone who is honest knows that death tax is a common description of your favorite tax that loots the estates of those who have already paid massive amounts of income tax upon their deaths"

"If we have an income tax, groups should pay about the same part of the burden as their share of the income. That at least has a semblance to fairness"

"the top one percent pay the highest rate on like income. Most of those in the bottom 90% do not"

"the top one percent pay a higher share of the income tax burden now than at any time in the last 70 years."

"If you want the rich to have no cap on earned income the rich should receive much higher benefits then"

"The top 5% pay more of the income tax than the other 95% combined."

"the wealthy pay far too much of the income taxes because they cannot outvote those who pay less and want more and more government."
 
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