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Elimination of Poverty, the Re-establishment of the Middle Class

How To Eliminate Poverty, Re-establish the Middle-Class? Check all you agree with

  • Government funded higher education just as other industrialized nations do

    Votes: 28 68.3%

  • Cut out tax loopholes for the rich to benefit the lower and middle class

    Votes: 34 82.9%

  • Start disallowing outsourcing to other countries for lower wages

    Votes: 28 68.3%

  • Institute a flat tax

    Votes: 7 17.1%

  • Disallow those in poverty to have children

    Votes: 2 4.9%

  • This is not possible; we will always have poverty and no middle class

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • There should always be poverty

    Votes: 6 14.6%
  • Total voters
    41
Juiposa said:
The only real way to completely wipe out poverty is communism, but no really wants that.
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Then we'd all live in relative poverty, at least compared to the way most of us live today.

Before we begin to reduce poverty, we should ask ourselves what it is.

Is the grad student surviving on scholarships and a ten dollar an hour job waiting tables living in poverty?
How about the drug dealer with a third grade education who is pulling down two hundred grand a month tax free?
Is there anyone in this country living in a one room shack made of cane, with a thatch roof and with chickens sharing living space? There are parts of the world where there are. Some of them are respected members of the village.
It seems to me that there is more to poverty than lack of income.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Then we'd all live in relative poverty, at least compared to the way most of us live today.

Before we begin to reduce poverty, we should ask ourselves what it is.

Is the grad student surviving on scholarships and a ten dollar an hour job waiting tables living in poverty?
How about the drug dealer with a third grade education who is pulling down two hundred grand a month tax free?
Is there anyone in this country living in a one room shack made of cane, with a thatch roof and with chickens sharing living space? There are parts of the world where there are. Some of them are respected members of the village.
It seems to me that there is more to poverty than lack of income.
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true, I made that point about a man I had met 35 years ago in Kenya who turned away from being a fairly well paid bureaucrat in a fairly modern city to live with his people in a hut herding cattle-and noting being the biggest cattle owner and a elder in the Masai country made him "richer" than being a mid level white collar bureaucrat where his race would prevent him from being at the top of that rat race
 
DemonMyst said:
Your a conservative.. Why would you?? Anything to actually help the poor is just not an option and of course anyone who suggests helping the poor is of course bias..

So how well did the tax cuts for the rich do?? What did we as a nation get for that 3.2 trillion spent on tax cuts for the rich?? Where are the jobs?? Where is the economy?? Where is the debt and deficit??

Just about everything in the poll list needs to be done.. While we will always have some live in poverty.. It should be an issue of them living that way by choice for some religious thing and not because they don't have any options to better themselves..

College should be free.. All education should be free.. Knowlege should be free.. Healthcare should be free.. 44,000 people die each year due to lack health insurance.. I am sure they aren't rich..

There should be no loopholes of any kind.. For any tax bracket.. People that make 50k or less a year in income should be exempt from paying taxes.. That includes sales tax or any other tax..

Since religion has failed in staying out of politics.. All churches need to start paying taxes for the people they employ and the profits they make..

Dramatically increase the taxes on all imports for companies that out source jobs to other nations for cheap labor.. They want to sell their products here they can make it here as well.. This would only apply to companies that started their Existence as U.S. companies.. Foreign companies are not obligated to build their products here.. But again, Tarifs can be used to make sure that all foreign and domestic companies have a level playing field to sell their wares here..

There should be a flat % tax rate.. No matter what your income, you pay 30% income tax on your income.. Again.. 50k or less do not pay taxes..

I don't think the government should get into allowing or not allowing who can or can't have children..

The income of the CEO of every company needs to be tied to the lowest paid person in their company.. No CEO can make more than 40 or 60 times the lowest wage earner in their company.. For privately owned companies this would work with the owners.. The key here is to make sure that when the rich people get a raise.. So does everyone else.. This will go along way with economy.. I am realitively certian that a dramatic cut in pay at the exective level will help with any payroll problem that most companies have..

Education and healthcare need to be removed from the for profit arenas..

Luxary taxes need to be assessed on multiple homes and private airplaines..

Forcing companies to treat their employees fairly and equally will go a long way toward not needing unions.. No company should provide a pension for their employees.. All pension funds should go to Social Security to boost their retirement amount there.. Basically just an employee bill of rights is all that is needed..

No bail outs.. If a company fails then it fails..

There are a lot of creative things we can do with taxes to make sure people get hired and are working.. But the biggest issue is making sure every child, reguardless of who their parents are, has the same chances and opportunities.. We really need to level the playing field.. Companies would be a lot better off hiring someone who really has talent and not someone who was rich and with a titanium spoon up his butt..
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Are you finished with your tirade now?

I don't believe that we have talked to each other previously. I think you are incredibly snide and uninformed in your opening statement. You do not have a clue as to what I believe or what assistance I may or may not provide to the poor. So, if I might offer a suggestion, you might not want to jump off that cliff again until you actually know what you are talking about.

Secondly, read the choices listed by MA. If you cannot see incredible bias in them, then you need a new pair of glasses. For example, don't you think this is rather biased:

"This is not possible; we will always have poverty and no middle class"

I believe that the Federal Government still has wealth to poverty on a quintile chart. That means they believe that a middle class exists. The choice above clearly does not provide for that option.

OR

There should always be poverty

Really? What a ridiculous statement. Will there always be 5 quintiles? Yes, unless, socialist tyrants decided that we can have one and all wealth is divided evenly. Of course, there would need to be tyrannical efforts to ensure that no one ever breaks out of those chains.

Carry on.
 
LesGovt said:
For example, don't you think this is rather biased:

"This is not possible; we will always have poverty and no middle class"
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You are right LessGovt, after I posted my most, realized I didn't put in the option "This is not possible; we will always have poverty" in addition to the other options, sorry about that my bad. Still, I think it can be seen that many people believe there are actions that can be taken in order to decrease poverty levels and increase the population of middle class folks.

LesGovt said:
I believe that the Federal Government still has wealth to poverty on a quintile chart. That means they believe that a middle class exists.
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I do not think anyone argues that there are a handful of citizens who make a little above a living wage (i.e. the middle class), however, different people define the middle class differently. The existence of said quintile chart is not evidence of a healthily sized middle class.

LesGovt said:
Yes, unless, socialist tyrants decided that we can have one and all wealth is divided evenly.
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Do you really think that I believe that everything should be exactly equal, that no rewards should exists and that there should be no competition?
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Do you really think that I believe that everything should be exactly equal, that no rewards should exists and that there should be no competition?
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maybe not but I believe you think the wealthy ought to have far more of their wealth taken for the alleged good of others and you resent the wealthy for doing well and you harbor a belief that many of them, if not all, wealth due to some sort of underhanded actions
 
MusicAdventurer said:
You are right LessGovt, after I posted my most, realized I didn't put in the option "This is not possible; we will always have poverty" in addition to the other options, sorry about that my bad. Still, I think it can be seen that many people believe there are actions that can be taken in order to decrease poverty levels and increase the population of middle class folks.
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I provided you with some specifics of what I would do about poverty. If you recall what I said, you will know that none of your choices are even close to what I would do. I realize that a person cannot provide every option, but a few bites for non-liberals could prove helpful.

MusicAdventurer said:
I do not think anyone argues that there are a handful of citizens who make a little above a living wage (i.e. the middle class), however, different people define the middle class differently. The existence of said quintile chart is not evidence of a healthily sized middle class.
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Handful?

MusicAdventurer said:
Do you really think that I believe that everything should be exactly equal, that no rewards should exists and that there should be no competition?
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No, nor did I say so.
 
TurtleDude said:
maybe not but I believe you think the wealthy ought to have far more of their wealth taken for the alleged good of others
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I believe the wealthy should share more of their unfairly acquired wealth in the interest of the greater good, instead of letting it go to waist; I believe that this is just and reasonable.

TurtleDude said:
and you resent the wealthy for doing well and you harbor a belief that many of them, if not all, wealth due to some sort of underhanded actions
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You would be incorrect - according to the definition of the word resent (i.e. Feel bitterness or indignation at (a circumstance, action, or person), Google
one needs bitterness or indignation, which requires a degree of anger which I do not hold toward the wealthy. In reality, I am passionate in my beliefs that a system (notice I said system and not the wealthy) that allows huge differences in wealth, leading to the unnecessary hardships of other, is unacceptable.

The wealthy may not be aware of the harm they do when they hoard more money than that which is need to live a reasonable, luxurious life and therefore I think that a good portion of the wealthy likely have good intentions. Additionally, it is the system that allows them do behave greedily, which is a natural behavior for humans; thus, it is the system that needs changing, not the citizens. Similarly, in our country, we do not allow people to hurt one another by law, yet engaging in such behavior (violence) is natural for humans. You see what I mean? Just because something is natural for humans does not mean it should not be managed.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
I believe the wealthy should share more of their unfairly acquired wealth in the interest of the greater good, instead of letting it go to waist; I believe that this is just and reasonable.
.
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that pretty much sums up the "justification" for your envy of the rich


go to waist-does that mean the rich are eating too much rich foods?

you make the unfounded assumption their wealth was "UNFAIRLY" acquired. Once you adopt that faith based foundation, there is no limit to the amount of confiscation you are willing to support since you don't believe the rich deserve their wealth

Hoarding exactly means what? I know tons of rich people. I believe everyone in one of the clubs I belong to have at least a million in assets, most are MAKING that much a year. I have never heard of any of them stashing money under their beds or in broom closets. they are spending it on (among other things club dues) cars, food, college tuition, golf clubs, insurance, their homes, gasoline, etc. and many are major league contributors to local and national charities, endowments etc

do you believe people like this should not be allowed to belong to exclusive clubs when their dues can be used to pay for the poor?
 
TurtleDude said:
that pretty much sums up the "justification" for your envy of the rich


go to waist-does that mean the rich are eating too much rich foods?
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Your line about the WAIST was clever. :lol:

as to the charge of ENVY

The whole charge of ENVY has been thoroughly trashed and disposed of. It is intended as a defense mechanism to make the user feel both superior to those it is being wielded against and provide them with an all purpose excuse that defies actual examination or substantiation. It is similar to the girl with hurt feelings claiming that "you hate me because I'm beautiful" in that it is a self given compliment disguised in self pity intended to make the person appear as an injured party and look good at the same time. The implication of this silly ENVY charge is that we only want what the rich have. It falsely pretends that we are simply wallowing in our own unhappiness that we are not rich, we are not wealthy, we do not have all the goodies an toys that the blessed of the earth have.

Nothing could be further from reality and nothing could be further from the truth.

Every argument I read on this site demanding that the rich pay more in taxation has nothing to do with what people personally want for themselves. It has everything to do with what they believe a just and fair governmental system should build in the way of a rational and sustainable tax policy for over a society of over 300 million people. It has everything to do with the concern about the increasingly growing gap between income classes in America.

As yourself this question - if the right can no longer play the ENVY card as a knee jerk reflex defense mechanism what else do they have left?

Answer: they will have to deal with the specific realities of tax proposals and they end up losing on those specifics. They will have to defend thirty years of tax cuts on the wealthy and they will lose on that record. They will have to defend corporate tax rates which appear healthy on paper but in reality are so riddled with holes that many corporations end up paying little or even nothing and that does fly very well with Americans. They will have to defend tax rates which see average workers end up paying their total tax burden almost at the same levels that the wealthy pay when all taxation is considered to all levels of government and that reality ends up making them look bad. They will have to defend statistics that show the rich getting richer by leaps and bounds and the rest of society is either stagnant or actually slipping backwards and losing ground and that is something they do not want to publicize.

And those are losing issues for them.

So instead, we get this all purpose, easy to use, no actual analysis required charge of ENVY applied when all else fails or is simply inadequate in an actual debate or argument.

Each time it is raised, it should be exposed and dealt with it for what it is.

Each time it is raised, we all should join in and trash it, smash it and let it crash to the ground.
 
those who are infected with envy have claimed it doesn't affect them. that doesn't dispose of it or disprove the charges. It merely means that some are unable to recognize their issues or dishonestly deny them

and even if those who whine that the rich don't deserve what they have (the common theme among the raise the taxes crowd) without demanding more, what we have are people who are political vandals

if I cannot have it, the government should make sure they cannot either

I understand the politics-the many want the few to fund all of the government the many want
 
TurtleDude said:
those who are infected with envy have claimed it doesn't affect them. that doesn't dispose of it or disprove the charges. It merely means that some are unable to recognize their issues or dishonestly deny them

and even if those who whine that the rich don't deserve what they have (the common theme among the raise the taxes crowd) without demanding more, what we have are people who are political vandals

if I cannot have it, the government should make sure they cannot either

I understand the politics-the many want the few to fund all of the government the many want
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Gee thnxs Dr Phil

Did you learn all this at the Yale school of paralegality, cosmetology and psychomentality?
Located in Yale Oklahoma.

/sarcasm
 
TurtleDude said:
those are some strange answer choices

no middle class?

maybe there will always be poverty rather than there should be
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Completely ridiculous and left-minded poll.
 
There WILL always be some poor, and a lot of them are by choice. I have siblings who have aimed very low in life and have hit dead center.
They CHOOSE their lot in life. I have little sympathy for anyone refusing to do the work required to improve their lot in life, especially when they complain about it, or blame others.
But for the truly disadvantaged, we should help those who can benefit from the help. Makes no sense to send some of our slower citizens to some school that they can't handle.
I applaud the local stores near our Utah home that employ people with Downs Syndrome. They are hard workers, dependable, and do a good job. We just can't expect certain things from them.
At the same time, we have people who don't suffer real handicaps, they are just lazy. If they get a job, they rapidly make it plain that they don't want to work. Businesses should be quick to fire the lazy, once that is determined.
 
Playing the ENVY card over and over and over again in thread after thread after thread is not an argument. It is a self serving defense mechanism designed to make one look superior and like a sad victim at the same time.

Anyone caught using it should dispense with it. Anyone caught using it should wisely put it aside. Face the issues as they exist. Discuss the merits of the issues raised. Discuss the details of the issues and how they impact the American people.

Repeating the same self serving word intentionally designed to make its user look good and feel superior over and over again is not debate.
 
TurtleDude said:
that pretty much sums up the "justification" for your envy of the rich
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When are the wealthy that make "envy" claims going to get over themselves?


TurtleDude said:
you make the unfounded assumption their wealth was "UNFAIRLY" acquired.
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If the cards are stacked in one's favor, it is unfair, i.e. not equal opportunity

TurtleDude said:
Hoarding exactly means what? I know tons of rich people. I believe everyone in one of the clubs I belong to have at least a million in assets, most are MAKING that much a year. I have never heard of any of them stashing money under their beds or in broom closets. they are spending it on (among other things club dues) cars, food, college tuition, golf clubs, insurance, their homes, gasoline, etc. and many are major league contributors to local and national charities, endowments etc

do you believe people like this should not be allowed to belong to exclusive clubs when their dues can be used to pay for the poor?
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Hoard defined: Amass (money or valued objects) and hide or store away (Google)

I believe I am adding "spending money unnecessarily on "over-the-top" commodities (i.e. 10 homes) when that money could be spent (money still going into the market) by those who are in need" to the definition of hoard, as well. Perhaps I will find another word to describe this part of it.

Does that answer your question?
 
you are expanding the definition of unfair to cover any situation you want it to

when the rich buy homes that "distributes" money to others

no matter what the rich do you aren't going to be happy

but pro sports are unfair to those who aren't talented

school honors are unfair to those who are stupid

ballet is unfair to people who tend to be uncoordinated or heavy

beauty contests to the ugly

attractive women tend to marry wealthier men than ugly ones

thinner women tend make more money than equally skilled heavier women

life is unfair-get over it and stop blaming those who have done well for their success

as long as people are not breaking the laws (if they do they tend to get prosecuted) or breaking contracts (those who do tend to get sued) they have no duty to take care of people like you who are upset with the order of things
 
TurtleDude said:
What is your understanding of what a "job" is
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I don't know, I suppose you could ask the 6.3 million unemployed that has not worked in 6 months.

Or ask the unemployed in manufacturing, electronocs,real estate and the garment industry.

I'm sure they can describe what their job WAS.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
If your job is specifically stated that it is going overseas, you get state paid education and unemployment benefits until that education is completed.

Pretty good deal if you ask me.
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What if you already have an education.

Then there is also the uhh.. not only less taxes going into federal, state and local ,,but also the money drained from not only unemployment but also the money paying for education instaed of collecting taxes from an American workers paycheck:peace
 
1Perry said:
I'm pretty sure you would have a bigger fight than that on your hands.
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That's true I like to keep my postshrt so didn't want to go into details.:peace
 
TurtleDude said:
when the rich buy homes that "distributes" money to others
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Distributes it at poor wages rather than providing living wages; therefore, the government is forced to subsidize.

TurtleDude said:
no matter what the rich do you aren't going to be happy
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How do you know so much about me? Its like you can read my mind or something .. eerie ..spookie ... boo!!

TurtleDude said:
pro sports are unfair to those who aren't talented

school honors are unfair to those who are stupid

ballet is unfair to people who tend to be uncoordinated or heavy

beauty contests to the ugly

attractive women tend to marry wealthier men than ugly ones

thinner women tend make more money than equally skilled heavier women
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I do not see these things as unfair (perhaps you do?); instead, they are just facts of life: those who have certain traits will do better at different things.

TurtleDude said:
life is unfair-get over it
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I could say the same thing to you, as you have complained about it being "unfair" for the wealthy to pay their fair share in taxes ... this is a reality of life in a world that is unfair ... yet I don't ask you to get over it because people are allowed to think things are unfair - I'm pretty sure that is what the American Revolution was all about, I'm pretty sure that is why many of the laws that protect you and me, were written etc. i.e. people are allowed to feel like things are unfair and they also have the power to doing something about it.
 
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presluc said:
I don't know, I suppose you could ask the 6.3 million unemployed that has not worked in 6 months.

Or ask the unemployed in manufacturing, electronocs,real estate and the garment industry.

I'm sure they can describe what their job WAS.
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I guess you cannot answer the question

should a company keep a job it no longer needs?
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Distributes it at poor wages rather than providing living wages; therefore, the government is forced to subsidize.



How do you know so much about me? Its like you can read my mind or something .. eerie ..spookie ... boo!!



I do not see these things as unfair (perhaps you do?); instead, they are just facts of life: those who have certain traits will do better at different things.



I could say the same thing to you, as you have complained about it being "unfair" for the wealthy to pay their fair share in taxes ... this is a reality of life in a world that is unfair ... yet I don't ask you to get over it because people are allowed to think things are unfair - I'm pretty sure that is what the American Revolution was all about, I'm pretty sure that is why many of the laws that protect you and me, were written etc. i.e. people are allowed to feel like things are unfair and they also have the power to doing something about it.
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if a company can fill its labor needs paying say an average of 12 dollars an hour why should it pay 18 an hour especially if its competition is paying 10 an hour
 
TurtleDude said:
if a company can fill its labor needs paying say an average of 12 dollars an hour why should it pay 18 an hour especially if its competition is paying 10 an hour
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To enable consumers enough disposable income after living expenses, today including the most expensive health care system in the world, to be able to buy their product.

Henry Ford discovered this many years ago. Some are still learning. :sun
 
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Juiposa said:
The only real way to completely wipe out poverty is communism, but no really wants that.
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LOL...please. Communism is the only way to wipe out the middle class. It leads to 99% poverty and 1% rich. Guaranteed.
 
ksu_aviator said:
LOL...please. Communism is the only way to wipe out the middle class. It leads to 99% poverty and 1% rich. Guaranteed.
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We don't need no stinkin' communism! We've had 30 years of trickle down economics taking us in the same direction:

"Here are some dramatic facts that sum up how the wealth distribution became even more concentrated between 1983 and 2004, in good part due to the tax cuts for the wealthy and the defeat of labor unions:

Of all the new financial wealth created by the American economy in that 21-year-period, fully 42% of it went to the top 1%. A whopping 94% went to the top 20%, which of course means that the bottom 80% received only 6% of all the new financial wealth generated in the United States during the '80s, '90s, and early 2000s (Wolff, 2007)."

Who Rules America: Wealth, Income, and Power
 
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