Family, FaceBook and spying.

MistressNomad said:

I do? Well, I'm glad you know me better than I do.

To be honest, I don't do anything I'm ashamed enough of to feel like I have to censor it.

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I didn't mean to look at specifically you, but you, in general terms, many people who use the service.

Gina said:

I could see your point if, at any time, these girls had messed up in the past. They haven't though. They are good girls with excellent grades. I've known them almost all their lives. Owing to that, they've earned trust and it should be extended to them. I appreciate your disclaimer as to me.

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I must've missed that part. Okay, if they're good girls with good grades who have never been in serious trouble... then it sounds like Mama's being a little paranoid and nosy and needs to let go a little.

Every child (in this case I mean "your child" whether young adult or minor) is different. They don't all need the same management methods. Some are ready to fly solo at 18, some aren't.

My kids wouldn't be caught dead on Facebook, any more than I would. So no.

Minor children living in my house? I'd make certain I had all of their passwords and would regularly monitor their pages. Children in college? Yes, if they're still living at home OR I'm footing their educational/living expenses. College is the time of most danger, when kids are still inexperienced but relatively unchaperoned and reveling in their freedom. However, my children and college kids would be aware that I am monitoring them. I'm not into "gotcha" parenting.

Goshin said:

I must've missed that part. Okay, if they're good girls with good grades who have never been in serious trouble... then it sounds like Mama's being a little paranoid and nosy and needs to let go a little.

Every child (in this case I mean "your child" whether young adult or minor) is different. They don't all need the same management methods. Some are ready to fly solo at 18, some aren't.

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I'm sorry, I didn't explicitly state that in the OP, but did so in subsequent replies. My bad. I should have mentioned it in the OP as that fact is a great part of why the group was appalled.

I agree. They are not one-size-fits all when it comes to rules.

DiAnna said:

Minor children living in my house? I'd make certain I had all of their passwords and would regularly monitor their pages. Children in college? Yes, if they're still living at home OR I'm footing their educational/living expenses. College is the time of most danger, when kids are still inexperienced but relatively unchaperoned and reveling in their freedom. However, my children and college kids would be aware that I am monitoring them. I'm not into "gotcha" parenting.

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Even if, and I didn't state this in the OP, they are good kids, good students and haven't been in any serious trouble?

Gina said:

Even if, and I didn't state this in the OP, they are good kids, good students and haven't been in any serious trouble?

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Yes. The internet is a dangerous place. If my children or college-age young adults are posting things they do not want a parent to see, then they are posting things they know their parents wouldn't approve of. For example, college kids commonly post sexually-charged photos of themselves (not necessarily nudity), pics of them downing liquor at keggers, that kind of thing. If I'm paying for my child's education, then underage drinking, smoking, snorting drugs and sex-kitten photos (or lists of conquests for males) are not what I'm expecting of them.

Also, look how many kids have been bullied or threatened via FB, and the parents were clueless until they found them hanging in the closet. Peer pressure of teens and early 20's is explosive, and too many kids feel that if they don't do what their friends do they'll be ostracized. Even good kids who've never been in trouble may do these things, and oblivious parents won't know until it catches up and they do get into trouble. Then the parent looks shell-shocked and says, "But they've never been in trouble" because they ignored the warning signs until they were caught.

Uh-uh. The kids are good kids because their parents knew when to loosen the leash, and understood when to keep it taunt. When my children are out on their own, that's a whole different ballgame, but while my 18-21 yr old is in college, mommy is watching.

DiAnna said:

Minor children living in my house? I'd make certain I had all of their passwords and would regularly monitor their pages. Children in college? Yes, if they're still living at home OR I'm footing their educational/living expenses. College is the time of most danger, when kids are still inexperienced but relatively unchaperoned and reveling in their freedom. However, my children and college kids would be aware that I am monitoring them. I'm not into "gotcha" parenting.

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I would do the same, though I would probably keep my surveillance clandestine, so that I knew that the information I was seeing was relatively candid.

I'm not into "gotcha" parenting either, so if I found them in material breach of our contract for me to pay for their collage, I would just let them know that I knew about their behavior.

How I found out is frankly non of their business as they aren't the parent. This isn't a court of law that I am required to provide evidence to prove my claim. If I confirm a child broke our contract, then we both know it occurred.

DiAnna said:

Yes. The internet is a dangerous place. If my children or college-age young adults are posting things they do not want a parent to see, then they are posting things they know their parents wouldn't approve of. For example, college kids commonly post sexually-charged photos of themselves (not necessarily nudity), pics of them downing liquor at keggers, that kind of thing. If I'm paying for my child's education, then underage drinking, smoking, snorting drugs and sex-kitten photos (or lists of conquests for males) are not what I'm expecting of them.

Also, look how many kids have been bullied or threatened via FB, and the parents were clueless until they found them hanging in the closet. Peer pressure of teens and early 20's is explosive, and too many kids feel that if they don't do what their friends do they'll be ostracized. Even good kids who've never been in trouble may do these things, and oblivious parents won't know until it catches up and they do get into trouble. Then the parent looks shell-shocked and says, "But they've never been in trouble" because they ignored the warning signs until they were caught.

Uh-uh. The kids are good kids because their parents knew when to loosen the leash, and understood when to keep it taunt. When my children are out on their own, that's a whole different ballgame, but while my 18-21 yr old is in college, mommy is watching.

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I can't get past the fact they are adults. Yes, as you might be paying for their education, you demand results, so if the grades don't come through, you deal with that. I agreed with Goshin to the point that not all kids are ready to fly solo, but good kids who have not been in trouble have earned trust. If you start out having all their passwords and logons, then they won't be posting any of that anyway and you've forced them to sneak about. Yes, it's good no sexually or dumb drinking pics are not being posted there, but it doesn't mean it isn't happening. You just can't see it.

I respect your point of view about internet bullying, and this reply, but good, open communication with our kids, minor and adult, will go farther than spying on them, although I do support monitoring for minors.

I'm willing to accept that maybe I'm just weird, but... college as a "time of most danger?" Seriously?

A college kid living on campus is nearly as protected from reality as a high schooler. The only difference is the guardians don't literally live IN the building... they're just constantly patrolling it.

When I was 18 I left to travel for 3 straight years. Alone. I'm not going to pretend it was no big deal. And while, before I actually left, I would tell people to go for it when they told me they "wished they were doing the same," I don't say that anymore. It is NOT for everyone. It IS dangerous. Really dangerous. "Almost killed me several times" dangerous. I think I'm the sort of person who needed to dive into things like that, but not everyone is.

My friends in college still don't know how to pay an electric bill. They don't know how to book a flight, set up a doctor's visit, and some of them don't even know how to use a washing machine.

Seriously?

College is "childhood part deux" unless you live independently off-campus. Relax.

Cephus said:

My kids wouldn't be caught dead on Facebook, any more than I would. So no.

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Is it because you are raising them to be socially awkward or that they simply have no interest?

Harry Guerrilla said:

Facebook is one of the most annoying "things" on the planet.
Nuke it from space is my stance.

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Because you have that avatar, I hear everything you write in Stuart Smalleys voice. Can't help it.

Gina said:

Yes, but they are adults! As long as their grades are good and they aren't being arrested for underage drinking or something, they should be off limits. Or, I think so anyway.

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Generally speaking the good quite ones are usually the worst.

I wouldn't spy on my adult children, because they have to take responsibility for their actions, but a minor child, I will be in there.

Thank whoever I have a son.

TacticalEvilDan said:

I'm okay with monitoring minor children, especially if they're 13 or younger. Mine are 4 and 2, and whatever the Facebook of the day is when they're old enough to use a computer will likely permit younger kids. It'll just be a fact of our social lives by then.

If they get to the teenage stage and your best source of honest intelligence is hacking their social media accounts, you're ****ed.

If they get to the adult stage and you're STILL hacking their social media accounts, you're just plain ****ed up.

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If you have any experience with teenagers you know that what they tell you is totally different than what they are actually doing.

Why did you cut it off at 13? 14 to 18 is where the problems are.

If you're open and honest with your children from the day they are born, you never have to snoop to find out what is happening in their lives.

Your friend sounds like she is a poor communicator with her children, which is why she is kept in the dark, which is why she feels the need to spy.

Incidentally, I hope the children also clue in and change their passwords at some point. When I was 15 I opened my first bank account and my father had to co-sign. As soon as I was an adult I took his name off of it, otherwise he'd have ongoing access.

Why would you not change the password ASAP?

Gina said:

In all the conversation that night, she never indicated there was anything to worry about. She just didn't like not knowing what's going on in their lives. Simple as that.

LOL, yes that would be awkward! Those are just the relationships on FB, that would make me cringe.



Thanks! I agree with every word! It's such an overstep of parent/child boundaries.

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People need to get back to the idea that when kids are 18, they leave and make their own lives. If they fail they can come back to lick their wounds and try again, but the parent can't be a constant presence in their lives.

Nature didn't intend it that way.

Goshin said:

If Mommy and Daddy are paying any significant part of their college tuition or personal upkeep, they remain dependent and have no more right to privacy than if they lived at home, which in my opinion is "whatever privacy I let you have, probably very little." Hell yeah, I'd keep up with them... if I'm paying part or all of their way, I'd like to know they're spending more time studying than partying.

People blow my minds. Most of the time they call college students "kids" and act protective of them, call them "oh my babies!" and want to coddle them like toddlers.... even though legally they're adults, able to join the military, contract, or marry at will. But then something like this comes up, where they suddenly act like their kids are adults and act horrified at the notion of spying on them, as if they were spying on adult strangers. ( I don't mean you specifically Gina, I'm thinking of certain other people when I say that...)

Well, like I said... if you're paying your own way, good on you, do yo' thing. If Mommy and Daddy are paying a substantial part of your college/upkeep, guess what... you're their dependent still, and they're investing in you, trying to give you a head start in life... if they spy on you a little to see whether you're working hard at college or partying and blowing their money, well that's the price you pay for still being dependent.

Could this be taken to an extreme? Sure, there are parents who try to micro-manage adult children beyond anything reasonable. Is FB "spying" automatically unreasonable? Nope... don't put anything online you would'nt put out there in public, because it is out there in public.

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I don't do that now and my son is almost 6.

DiAnna said:

Yes. The internet is a dangerous place. If my children or college-age young adults are posting things they do not want a parent to see, then they are posting things they know their parents wouldn't approve of. For example, college kids commonly post sexually-charged photos of themselves (not necessarily nudity), pics of them downing liquor at keggers, that kind of thing. If I'm paying for my child's education, then underage drinking, smoking, snorting drugs and sex-kitten photos (or lists of conquests for males) are not what I'm expecting of them.

Also, look how many kids have been bullied or threatened via FB, and the parents were clueless until they found them hanging in the closet. Peer pressure of teens and early 20's is explosive, and too many kids feel that if they don't do what their friends do they'll be ostracized. Even good kids who've never been in trouble may do these things, and oblivious parents won't know until it catches up and they do get into trouble. Then the parent looks shell-shocked and says, "But they've never been in trouble" because they ignored the warning signs until they were caught.

Uh-uh. The kids are good kids because their parents knew when to loosen the leash, and understood when to keep it taunt. When my children are out on their own, that's a whole different ballgame, but while my 18-21 yr old is in college, mommy is watching.

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With your examples here, do you really need their password to combat all that, or is being a friend on FB enough?

What advantage does having the password give the parent?

Gina said:

I can't get past the fact they are adults. Yes, as you might be paying for their education, you demand results, so if the grades don't come through, you deal with that. I agreed with Goshin to the point that not all kids are ready to fly solo, but good kids who have not been in trouble have earned trust. If you start out having all their passwords and logons, then they won't be posting any of that anyway and you've forced them to sneak about. Yes, it's good no sexually or dumb drinking pics are not being posted there, but it doesn't mean it isn't happening. You just can't see it.

I respect your point of view about internet bullying, and this reply, but good, open communication with our kids, minor and adult, will go farther than spying on them, although I do support monitoring for minors.

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Do you think it is OK for a previously good female child to get drunk on a Friday night and possibly end up pregnant?

What will that do to her grades and future?

Mistakes happen.

Kali said:

Is it because you are raising them to be socially awkward or that they simply have no interest?

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If you don't have a FB account you are socially awkward?

WOW the previous generation must have been all nerds or something.

I don't have children. However, I do know that my parents would have never dreamt of accessing my private anything after I became an adult. We were taught, from the time we were teens, that we would be our own persons upon legal adulthood. They prepared us for it, both the rights and responsibilities. Because we were taught this, our parents would have faced our wrath had they invaded (which they wouldn't have, but just 'if') our privacy.

Given this upbringing, this invasion of privacy is inconceivable to me. There is no excuse for the behavior of the woman in the OP. Quite frankly, if I were good friends with a family in this situation, I would risk my friendship and inform the other adults whose privacy is being violated. To me it is equivalent, or at least nearly so, as anyone else invading privacy in such a manner. In all other cases, I would inform, so I would do so here. I feel it is that clear cut, and that strongly about it, though I do understand anyone who feels differently on that score.

The interesting point to be made about informing is this: If the young adults don't care, then no harm done and the friendship should survive. But if they do care, then all the more they should be informed.

I'm just left wondering what kind of relationship some parents have built with their children that would justify continuous spying on them and interfering in their lives no matter what age they are. Part of growing up is having the freedom to do so. If we're honest with ourselves, we have to admit that we've learned the most from the mistakes we've made. I've always been of the mind that I can't and shouldn't protect my daughter from making mistakes. It's the only way to really learn about life. No one ever learns anything of value by being coddled, over-protected and prevented from experiencing the world. When the children are young it's easy to do that within a controlled environment, but as they grow up we need to trust that we've done a good job at parenting them and preparing them for each milestone that comes along. That's the whole point of raising them. Giving them the gradual freedom and trust they need to become independent adults.

I can't prevent life from happening and life includes bad experiences. All I can do is prepare my kid for what's to come and teach her how to protect herself and minimize the damage that comes with actually living life. So far so good. The seeds I've been planting since she was an infant are coming to fruition. It also helps that she's very secure in the knowledge that no matter what happens, I will be there to help her pick up whatever pieces need to be picked up. I feel that's always been my role as a parent. To be there to push her out of the nest a little more each year, even giving her good shove at times, while simultaneously being her safety net.

Spying on her was never an option, nor a necessity.

My Mother, to this day, will do these kinds of things to me. Maybe that's why I won't.

My kids came of age during the My Space era. I had them as friends on My Space. Now they are friends on Facebook. I don't snoop, period.

Kali said:

Is it because you are raising them to be socially awkward or that they simply have no interest?

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They have no interest. They have other outlets and the FB/MySpace thing is absurd.

Mason66 said:

Generally speaking the good quite ones are usually the worst.

I wouldn't spy on my adult children, because they have to take responsibility for their actions, but a minor child, I will be in there.

Thank whoever I have a son.

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Yes, they can be worse, but in my experience, that happens when their parents have had them under their thumb their whole life. Eventually, they will rebel.

Mason66 said:

People need to get back to the idea that when kids are 18, they leave and make their own lives. If they fail they can come back to lick their wounds and try again, but the parent can't be a constant presence in their lives.

Nature didn't intend it that way.

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Amen! We are supposed to make ourselves obsolete, or nearly so.

Mason66 said:

Do you think it is OK for a previously good female child to get drunk on a Friday night and possibly end up pregnant?

What will that do to her grades and future?

Mistakes happen.

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No, I don't think that's a wise thing to do. However, I cannot be a constant presence in her life. I can only teach her why it is unwise and hope it sticks.

Dezaad said:

I don't have children. However, I do know that my parents would have never dreamt of accessing my private anything after I became an adult. We were taught, from the time we were teens, that we would be our own persons upon legal adulthood. They prepared us for it, both the rights and responsibilities. Because we were taught this, our parents would have faced our wrath had they invaded (which they wouldn't have, but just 'if') our privacy.

Given this upbringing, this invasion of privacy is inconceivable to me. There is no excuse for the behavior of the woman in the OP. Quite frankly, if I were good friends with a family in this situation, I would risk my friendship and inform the other adults whose privacy is being violated. To me it is equivalent, or at least nearly so, as anyone else invading privacy in such a manner. In all other cases, I would inform, so I would do so here. I feel it is that clear cut, and that strongly about it, though I do understand anyone who feels differently on that score.

The interesting point to be made about informing is this: If the young adults don't care, then no harm done and the friendship should survive. But if they do care, then all the more they should be informed.

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I won't inform her girls because this doesn't cross the line I set for intervention into the affairs of my friends. If it was abusive or neglectful, yes, I would risk destroying a friendship. But it isn't.

The subject came up several times and it was clear, we didn't agree with her. It was unmistakeable without being directly addressed. It was a silent rebuke by the group.

Arcana XV said:

I'm just left wondering what kind of relationship some parents have built with their children that would justify continuous spying on them and interfering in their lives no matter what age they are. Part of growing up is having the freedom to do so. If we're honest with ourselves, we have to admit that we've learned the most from the mistakes we've made. I've always been of the mind that I can't and shouldn't protect my daughter from making mistakes. It's the only way to really learn about life. No one ever learns anything of value by being coddled, over-protected and prevented from experiencing the world. When the children are young it's easy to do that within a controlled environment, but as they grow up we need to trust that we've done a good job at parenting them and preparing them for each milestone that comes along. That's the whole point of raising them. Giving them the gradual freedom and trust they need to become independent adults.

I can't prevent life from happening and life includes bad experiences. All I can do is prepare my kid for what's to come and teach her how to protect herself and minimize the damage that comes with actually living life. So far so good. The seeds I've been planting since she was an infant are coming to fruition. It also helps that she's very secure in the knowledge that no matter what happens, I will be there to help her pick up whatever pieces need to be picked up. I feel that's always been my role as a parent. To be there to push her out of the nest a little more each year, even giving her good shove at times, while simultaneously being her safety net.

Spying on her was never an option, nor a necessity.

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To the bolded text: To attempt to do so, stunts their growth. We can't always be there (and shouldn't), they have to have the tools to cope on their own.