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Were there racists in 1776? (read post first)

Where there racists in 1776? (read post first)

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ThePlayDrive

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Racism - the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races

Argument #1: Yes, there were racists in 1776 because there were people who believed that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

Argument #2: No, there were not any racists in 1776 because white superiority was the the prevailing scientific theory at the time. Because scientists believed white superiority to be true, neither they nor anyone else was racist.
 
theplaydrive said:
Argument #2: No, there were not any racists in 1776 because white superiority was the the prevailing scientific theory at the time. Because scientists believed white superiority to be true, neither they nor anyone else was racist.
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This would represent an example of two logical fallicies rolled into one -- the apeal to popularity and the apeal to authority.
 
Of course they were racist, a belief in something doesn't make it true.
 
The Founding Generation turned over the design of the Capital City to a black man. There were black voters. George Washington ran his own spy ring during the war, and his top agent was... a black guy; Washington based some pretty heavy plays on him. You don't let someone who you think is inherently stupid design your capital city, you don't put the fate of your country's military in his hands, and you are unlikely to let him vote.

Racism came later.
 
theplaydrive said:
Racism - the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races

Argument #1: Yes, there were racists in 1776 because there were people who believed that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

Argument #2: No, there were not any racists in 1776 because white superiority was the the prevailing scientific theory at the time. Because scientists believed white superiority to be true, neither they nor anyone else was racist.
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Racism is still racism it doesn't matter if they have a theory or false science to "back" it up. Which founding forefathers were racist is a different matter. Slavery is tied in with greed not racism.
 
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Lets see now... they gave legal protection to a system of enslaving a race of people. That reality would get a YES vote from me in this poll.

The absurdity that there was a black man or two that they did not enslave and even liked does not negate what they did to almost all of the remainder of the race across the land.
 
How can anyone know absolutely either way?
 
jamesrage said:
Racism is still racism it doesn't matter if they have a theory or false science to "back" it up. Which founding forefathers were racist is a different matter. Slavery is tied in with greed not racism.
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Slavery is tied with greed and racism, otherwise they would've enslaved everyone, not just blacks.
 
For the record, I answered "yes".
 
I'm curious, were there any white slaves at that time in America?
 
What the OP failed to provide, is that the term and concept of racism did not exist prior to 1932, and was only recognized in 1936 when describing the Nazi theories about race. The prior term, "racialism" was used in the earliest forms in 1871.

Second, that the modern view of racism is different than the historical concept of racism. In 1776 there was no such concept and only when we, today, use the modern definition of racism do we see the inequality of other races in 1776 as "racist". In 1776, there was inequality, there were haves and have nots of all colors, origins, and even religions (for example, Catholics were seen in a very bad way through the founding of the U.S.), but there was no concept back then of someone not treating a black man, a slave or even an American Indian as being "racist". That... is a modern concept and interpretation. Transport yourself back in time to 1776 and there is no "racism".
 
spud_meister said:
Slavery is tied with greed and racism, otherwise they would've enslaved everyone, not just blacks.
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Contrary to popular belief there were white slaves and black slave owners in the US.
 
Canell said:
I'm curious, were there any white slaves at that time in America?
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Yes, they were called "indentured servants". These people were not paid wages, but worked to pay off their food, clothing, travel expenses or other such debts for a specified period of time. Again, in a MODERN interpretation of what is called "slavery" an indentured servant was a form of slave.
 
Ockham said:
Yes, they were called "indentured servants". These people were not paid wages, but worked to pay off their food, clothing, travel expenses or other such debts for a specified period of time. Again, in a MODERN interpretation of what is called "slavery" an indentured servant was a form of slave.
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OK but did the master own the indenture servant's life or just his work?
 
Ockham said:
What the OP failed to provide, is that the term and concept of racism did not exist prior to 1932, and was only recognized in 1936 when describing the Nazi theories about race. The prior term, "racialism" was used in the earliest forms in 1871.

Second, that the modern view of racism is different than the historical concept of racism. In 1776 there was no such concept and only when we, today, use the modern definition of racism do we see the inequality of other races in 1776 as "racist". In 1776, there was inequality, there were haves and have nots of all colors, origins, and even religions (for example, Catholics were seen in a very bad way through the founding of the U.S.), but there was no concept back then of someone not treating a black man, a slave or even an American Indian as being "racist". That... is a modern concept and interpretation. Transport yourself back in time to 1776 and there is no "racism".
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If there were people who believe in racial superiority, there was racism. The word just didn't exist yet. Sorry. Moreover, the argument you just presented is a completely separate from argument #2 so start a new thread.
 
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haymarket said:
Lets see now... they gave legal protection to a system of enslaving a race of people. That reality would get a YES vote from me in this poll.
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Making someone a slave does not mean you think that person is inferior to you in a racial manner. Slavery existed the same reason elected officials today turn a blind eye to illegal immigration.. Cheap Labor.It is the sole reason for slavery. It doesn't if the slave is black,white, Asian or what ever.


The absurdity that there was a black man or two that they did not enslave and even liked does not negate what they did to almost all of the remainder of the race across the land.
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It was more than one or two that were not slaves. Around 10% of black people were freemen.
 
theplaydrive said:
If there were people who believe in racial superiority, there was racism. The word just didn't exist yet. Sorry.
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It's racism only in the modern interpretation. Travel back in time, there was no racism without the modern interpretation of it. Not sure why that concept is so difficult for you to grasp.
 
Ockham said:
It's racism only in the modern interpretation. Travel back in time, there was no racism without the modern interpretation of it. Not sure why that concept is so difficult for you to grasp.
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Hint: It's not me, it's you and there are many other people who agree with me.
 
Ockham said:
It's racism only in the modern interpretation. Travel back in time, there was no racism without the modern interpretation of it. Not sure why that concept is so difficult for you to grasp.
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It doesn't matter if the word existed back then. Racism is the belief that one's race is superior to other races and or racial hatred or the policy of government that fosters that doctrine. If you hate someone because of their race it doesn't matter if there is a word for it. If you think there are inferior and superior races then you are a racist and if you want a form of government that fosters such ideas then it is racism.There were people back then who thought their race was superior to other races and hated other races.
 
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Ockham said:
It's racism only in the modern interpretation. Travel back in time, there was no racism without the modern interpretation of it. Not sure why that concept is so difficult for you to grasp.
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I think we agreed to disagree on this, but I agree with TPD. While people back then didn't conceptualize race and racism in the same terms we do today, they still believed that there existed fundamental differences between the races, and usually these differences involved believing in the superiority of one's own race over another. THAT in and of itself is racism, no matter how you cut it. Historicism plays no part in the FACT that people back then held racist attitudes.
 
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Canell said:
OK but did the master own the indenture servant's life or just his work?
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He owned their life for a specific period of time. Usually that time frame was assessed at a # of years of productive work to pay off his debts. If that person did not fulfill the contract, left or tried to leave, the person would be physically (usually) punished - whipping and the like, just as a slave was and a penalty could be an addition of years (additive) to the existing contract. If a servent died in the employ of their master - the contract was null and void (obviously) but the owner had already shelled out the money - so any productivity loss would have to be made up some other way.
 
jamesrage said:
It doesn't matter if the word existed back then. Racism is the belief that one's race is superior to other races and or racial hatred or the policy of government that fosters that doctrine. If you hate someone because of their race it doesn't matter if there is a word for it. If you think there are inferior and superior races then you are a racist and if you want a form of government that fosters such ideas then it is racism.There were people back then who thought their race was superior to other races and hated other races.
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100% agree with James. That doesn't happen often, I have to say.
 
theplaydrive said:
Racism - the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races

Argument #1: Yes, there were racists in 1776 because there were people who believed that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

Argument #2: No, there were not any racists in 1776 because white superiority was the the prevailing scientific theory at the time. Because scientists believed white superiority to be true, neither they nor anyone else was racist.
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yes, they were racist - they believed that others were inferior and treated them as such.

And I would hardly call some of the first explorers who went looking for *gold* and precious gems in Africa to be scientists . . .rather - they were adventerers who didn't like the natives they found.
 
theplaydrive said:
because white superiority was the the prevailing scientific theory at the time. Because scientists believed white superiority to be true, neither they nor anyone else was racist.
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You can hardly call this a scientific belief, even when it was current. Racialist theory has always been pseudoscience. Moreover, in 1776, science itself was closer to philosophy than what we think of today as science.

Simply put, yes the founders were a bunch of slave-holding racists. Don't try to make excuses for them.
 
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