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Favorite/best form of government?

Favorite/best form of government?

  • Democracy/republic

    Votes: 26 76.5%
  • Monarchy (constitutional/absolute)

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • Theocracy

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Anarchy

    Votes: 5 14.7%
  • Other (explain in post)

    Votes: 2 5.9%

  • Total voters
    34
I think you're misunderstanding the context of the word 'property.' Anarchism makes a distinction between 'property' and 'posessions.' Your things; clothes, food, coffee-maker, remastered edition of the Star Wars trilogy, old issues of National Geographic, and your collection of Matryoshka dolls are all yours, and no-one has any right to them. However, you do not have the right to claim the means of production; a field, a factory, etc., and, by doing so, extort others for the proceeds of their labor. No-one has the 'right' to do that, any more than one has the 'right' to commit rape, or vandalism, etc. Also, under this school of Socialist thought, the capital is controlled not by a monolithic regime of bureaucrats, but, directly, by the laborers and the members of the community, themselves. This is the least authoritarian model of a society than one could envision.

I understand you all too well. The means of production is a type of private property, period full stop. If you don't support ownership of means of production, then you don't support private property ownership in any meaningful way.

And anyway, without coercion, how do you expect to get people who own means of production to give it up? By asking really nicely?

Look, Remington Steele, just 'fess up to being an authoritarian already.
 
I understand you all too well. The means of production is a type of private property, period full stop. If you don't support ownership of means of production, then you don't support private property ownership in any meaningful way.

And anyway, without coercion, how do you expect to get people who own means of production to give it up? By asking really nicely?

Look, Remington Steele, just 'fess up to being an authoritarian already.

So who has the authority?
 
So who has the authority?

Whoever is in charge of reappropriating the means of production. Essentially it's a race to see which morally bankrupt opportunist can be the first to seize control of the pillow-headed communitarians.
 
[...] it was invaded by an armed force, backed by, what was then, the most formidible, and technologically sophisticated army on Earth. It's not their fault for being bombed to **** by the Luftwaffe.

Still, this highlights another major defect in such a system: it cannot defend itself from extant state-level powers with the means and the willingness to bomb them to ****.

While I am certain that you and I would disagree on the proper role and form of government, you cannot deny that a "state-level" government is necessary to defend its citizens against the encroachment of other nations-- looking to your own example above.

Even if such a system could maintain internal stability -- which I doubt -- it would be especially vulnerable to extermination by external threats... not a good model.
 
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Whoever is in charge of reappropriating the means of production. Essentially it's a race to see which morally bankrupt opportunist can be the first to seize control of the pillow-headed communitarians.

Well yeah, that's usually how it goes down in reality. Assuming it was working the way it was supposed to, though, the people would collectively own the means of production, so no one has authority. You can't have an authoritarian system with no authority, and you can't call someone an authoritarian when they're advocating such a system. Idealist, maybe, but not authoritarian.
 
Well yeah, that's usually how it goes down in reality. Assuming it was working the way it was supposed to, though, the people would collectively own the means of production, so no one has authority. You can't have an authoritarian system with no authority, and you can't call someone an authoritarian when they're advocating such a system. Idealist, maybe, but not authoritarian.

That's just it, the way it's supposed to work is a physical impossibility.

Authoritiarian may not be right but idealist sure ain't right either. Incoherentarian, maybe.
 
Still, this highlights another major defect in such a system: it cannot defend itself from extant state-level powers with the means and the willingness to bomb them to ****.

While I am certain that you and I would disagree on the proper role and form of government, you cannot deny that a "state-level" government is necessary to defend its citizens against the encroachment of other nations-- looking to your own example above.

The Spanish anarchists weren't the only people to be bombed at the hands of the Luftwaffe. The centralized governments of Poland, Hungary, Austria, France ect didn't exactly stop Nazi advancement. Besides, the anarchists were fighting on the side of the republic, which was a "state-level" government.
 
The Spanish anarchists weren't the only people to be bombed at the hands of the Luftwaffe. The centralized governments of Poland, Hungary, Austria, France ect didn't exactly stop Nazi advancement.

Of course. But it wasn't anarchists that stopped them either... it was state-powers actually capable of defending themselves and others.

Besides, the anarchists were fighting on the side of the republic, which was a "state-level" government.

That's my point... Anarchist communities are only viable if affiliated with state-level powers capable of higher-scale military protection/projection.

The Amish as pacifists, for instance, do just fine in the middle of Pennsylvania, they wouldn't do so well founding their own autonomous and completely independent country.

While anarchists may not be pacifists, they still aren't able of defending themselves from state-level countries... at most, you need to rely on a state-level society at some level, as long as they are present elsewhere.

One of the reasons a libertarian grudgingly accepts that state-level governments are necessary, however limited, is the need for physical protection.
 
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I understand you all too well. The means of production is a type of private property, period full stop. If you don't support ownership of means of production, then you don't support private property ownership in any meaningful way.

No, there is no conflict, we're talking about two fundamentally different things.

And anyway, without coercion, how do you expect to get people who own means of production to give it up? By asking really nicely?

'Coercion' is kind of nebulous. There are a multitude of possibilities. However, most likely, I would say that transfer of the means of production from an elite minority to the public would occur by one of two means;
A: Being physically occupied by the public directly, in in the context of a, most likely, violent, political upheaval.
B: A slower, gradual dissolution, over an extended period of time.
I, actually, tend to favor the latter.

Look, Remington Steele, just 'fess up to being an authoritarian already.

No, this is fundamentally false. Again; what I am advocating is the least authoritarian model of social organization imaginable. At the very least, I am significantly less authoritarian than yourself, which renders such criticisms fairly meaningless.
 
Still, this highlights another major defect in such a system: it cannot defend itself from extant state-level powers with the means and the willingness to bomb them to ****.

I wouldn't necessarily say it absolutely can't, however, in this case it, clearly, was not able to do so. However, there are some essential points that I think need to be made. This is not an argument against Anarchism; it's an argument against Nation-States, and Nationalism; the religion of the Nation-State.

While I am certain that you and I would disagree on the proper role and form of government,

That's a strong possibility.

you cannot deny that a "state-level" government is necessary to defend its citizens against the encroachment of other nations-- looking to your own example above.

Even if such a system could maintain internal stability -- which I doubt -- it would be especially vulnerable to extermination by external threats... not a good model.

Again, this is not an argument against Anarchism, but against Nation-States. If the human species is to keep progressing, ultimately, we're going to have to make a number of changes. Among them, we're going to have to abandon this primitive tribalism, which has, already, on at least one occasion, led us to within a hairs' breadth of oblivion. Otherwise, at best; the human race will never be able to progress past a certain point, at worst; and, perhaps, more likely, it will spell certain doom. Ultimately, this will have to be a collective, global project. However, there's no reason why certain, finite communities can't take the initiative. This is one of many points of seperation between my philosophy, and Marxist-Leninism. Is it impossible to have a large, modern, functioning society organized on Libertarian lines? I don't see any reason why not. There's only one way to find out. I say; Let's identify the existing systems of oppression and exploitation, and let's dismantle them, and replace them with better, more democratic alternatives, and see where that leads.
 
'Coercion' is kind of nebulous.

Coercion is not nebulous at all. You're just clouding the issue and attempting to redefine the plain meaning of the word to suit your purposes. Coercion is what it is: forcing somebody to do something against their will.

You're either foolish and naive thinking you can get people to give up means of production which they own, or else you are going to have to do it by coercive means.

Either way, I can see from your lack of counter argument that you have no way to account for the confiscation of property from its owners; and you yourself admit to coercive tactics in the "violent political upheaval" you envision in your first scenario. Nor do you bother to define your second, gradual scenario in any substantial way.

A: Being physically occupied by the public directly, in in the context of a, most likely, violent, political upheaval.
B: A slower, gradual dissolution, over an extended period of time.

So, again, by your own words, you favor either a) violent coercion, or b) candyland.
 
Coercion is not nebulous at all. You're just clouding the issue and attempting to redefine the plain meaning of the word to suit your purposes. Coercion is what it is: forcing somebody to do something against their will.

My, we’re awfully sensitive.

No, I was trying to elucidate, specifically, what you meant. Now, I know.

While we’re being all technical, you should know that simply exercising authority, or accepting/tolerating the exercise of authority does not, by itself, make one an Authoritarian. Anarchism doesn’t reject all authority, it merely asserts that authority should be subject to a heavy burden of proof as to it’s legitimacy. Often, authority is illegitimate, but not always. Also, as I said before, literally speaking, Anarchism is the polar opposite of Authoritarianism. Also, in case there was any confusion; I did not say that you are an ‘Authoritarian’, I merely pointed out that your philosophy is more Authoritarian than my own.


You're either foolish and naive thinking you can get people to give up means of production which they own, or else you are going to have to do it by coercive means.

The means of production are controlled by private entities. They have no right to them. No one person does. One might as well speak of the ‘right’ of a slaveowner to own slaves. That this form of exploitation is commonplace, and institutionalized, does not change the fact that it is fundamentally illegitimate.

I think methodology is largely determinant on circumstances. The circumstances in Russia, or North Korea, are fundamentally different from the circumstances in the United States, or the United Kingdom. There is no one plan for all circumstances, it must be fluid, and deal with the facts-on-the-ground. What is constant, however, is the fundamental principles that guide said action.

Either way, I can see from your lack of counter argument that you have no way to account for the confiscation of property from its owners;

See above.

and you yourself admit to coercive tactics in the "violent political upheaval" you envision in your first scenario. Nor do you bother to define your second, gradual scenario in any substantial way.

If you wanted me to elaborate; you could have asked.

So, again, by your own words, you favor either a) violent coercion, or b) candyland.

A lot of this concerns some of the fundamental differences between Anarchism and Marxism, especially Marxist-Leninism, and it’s related antecedents. Anarchism asserts that this change must be democratic, and must come from the people, themselves, through a grassroots movement; from the bottom-up. In the past, popular movements have won several decisive victories, in the United States, which are now under threat. Progress isn’t a one-way street. Just as the tide is turning back, now, it can be reversed, again.
 
At the time of the Russian Revolution, Russia was not in any way industrialized. Despite its enormous flaws, the Bolsheviks rapidly industrialized the country.

Yes.

An anarchistic society wouldn't have been able to do that.

We'll never know. Worker's democracy; real Socialism, wasn't on the agenda, that was ground into the dust.

On that we agree.

Ok, then you can stop stating this piece of 'common wisdom' as if it were empirical fact, and we can move forward, accordingly.

Liberals were originally people who supported free market capitalism. Now liberal has become a left wing term, and libertarian has become right wing. Changing terms really aren't that big of a deal.

There's Classical Liberalism, which is embraced by the Left, and to varying degrees of the moderate right, but not the far right, and modern-day Liberals. However, the two are fundamentally linked. Liberalism may be diverse, but there are consistent themes that have evolved organically that can be traced back through the history of Liberal thought. This modern perversion of the word 'Libertarian' has, essentially, no connection, whatsoever to the literal definition, or the intellectual history thereof, and, again, is strictly confined to North America. That this word is often misused in this locality does not change the fact that is being misused.

Also, my choices are severely limited by the options availible to me, on this forum; it was a choice between 'Libertarian', which is widely misuderstood, but literally accurate, or the nondescript, dull; 'Other.' I would happily change my orientation to the more specific ; 'Anarchist', or to the synonymous 'Socialist', were said options availible. I'm not the only person who has suggested this. So far, the powers-that-be have not taken it upon themselves to make this choice availible. Until then; I see no reason to change it.
 
I wouldn't necessarily say it absolutely can't, however, in this case it, clearly, was not able to do so. However, there are some essential points that I think need to be made. This is not an argument against Anarchism; it's an argument against Nation-States, and Nationalism; the religion of the Nation-State.

No, it is an argument against anarchism. In a world where nation-states exist, anarchism simply doesn't allow for communites with enough cohesion and direction for adequate defense against more organized/authoritative systems. Even a nation-state with a limited government has more of a fighting chance. A community that cannot defend themselves lives only by the good will or benevolence of a stronger system. Lacking that, they are crushed by forms of governance that can fufill that basic need, and go beyond that.

Again, this is not an argument against Anarchism, but against Nation-States. If the human species is to keep progressing, ultimately, we're going to have to make a number of changes. Among them, we're going to have to abandon this primitive tribalism, which has, already, on at least one occasion, led us to within a hairs' breadth of oblivion. Otherwise, at best; the human race will never be able to progress past a certain point, at worst; and, perhaps, more likely, it will spell certain doom. Ultimately, this will have to be a collective, global project. However, there's no reason why certain, finite communities can't take the initiative. This is one of many points of seperation between my philosophy, and Marxist-Leninism. Is it impossible to have a large, modern, functioning society organized on Libertarian lines? I don't see any reason why not. There's only one way to find out. I say; Let's identify the existing systems of oppression and exploitation, and let's dismantle them, and replace them with better, more democratic alternatives, and see where that leads.

If I believed world peace (or a world without primitive tribalism, as you say) was possible, I would probably be much closer to an anarchist myself... I don't see that happening though -- and why would I? -- it certainly hasn't ever happened before, even before nation-states existed, and people are all individuals with different personal motivations and drives. Call me cynical, but I envision a world without nation-states as a reversion back to feudalism or warlordism, at best; no amount of good intentions, education, technological progress will suddenly make humans entirely peaceful. We're not like that, as a whole. Some will want to be peaceful and work together without sparking injustice, and then some, inevitably, will not -- and they will ruin it for the rest of us, every time.
 
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No, it is an argument against anarchism. In a world where nation-states exist, anarchism simply doesn't allow for communites with enough cohesion and direction for adequate defense against more organized/authoritative systems. Even a nation-state with a limited government has more of a fighting chance. A community that cannot defend themselves lives only by the good will or benevolence of a stronger system. Lacking that, they are crushed by forms of governance that can fufill that basic need, and go beyond that.

I'd phrase it somewhat differently, I'd say such a society lives only to the extent that neighboring societies, or, more accurately, the cadre of elites that control them, don't feel threatened by it, or desire it's resources, and, then, initiate a fit of mass homicide.

This is, ultimately, an argument agains nation-states, because it highlights the corrosive effect of nationalism, and it's fundamental incompatibility with civilization. It divides people, on a completely arbitrary and irrational basis, into opposing camps. Those in the other camps, those outside the nation-state are, at best; naughty children, at worst; vermin to be exterminated. As long as this primitive tribalism holds sway, human progress is significantly limited.

It very well might be impossible for a large, more-or-less,... 'fully realized', shall we say, Anarchist society to coeexist alongside other nation-states. This is another point of divergence from Marxism, I don't make any definitive assertion, nor do I claim to be able to predict the future. I think it depends on the circumstances. At this time, however, one simply cannot, definitively, say. In the interim, I have suggested following the basic principles; identifying and dismantling institutions of oppression and exploitation, etc., etc.

If I believed world peace (or a world without primitive tribalism, as you say)...

I think it's a very accurate characterization.

was possible, I would probably be much closer to an anarchist myself...

Excellent.

On a serious note, my late grandfather once said to me that there are probably a great many people, who would never describe themselves as 'Anarchists', while not being particularly ideological, or approaching it in a systemic way, believe very much the same as I do. I think that's true.

I don't see that happening though...

Again; I don't claim to have any special knowledge, or powers of precognition.

-- and why would I? -- it certainly hasn't ever happened before, even before nation-states existed,

Before nation-states, there were kingdoms, and empires, of which the modern nation-state is a descendent. Before that, there were small, loosely organized tribes.

That something has not happened is not, by itself, necessarily, proof that it cannot happen. Also, this argument is a double-edged sword.

and people are all individuals with different personal motivations and drives.

Yes.

Call me cynical, but I envision a world without nation-states as a reversion back to feudalism or warlordism, at best; no amount of good intentions, education, technological progress will suddenly make humans entirely peaceful. We're not like that, as a whole. Some will want to be peaceful and work together without sparking injustice, and then some, inevitably, will not -- and they will ruin it for the rest of us, every time.

I don't find this cynical, myopic view of human nature remotely compelling. At the outset, we should be suspicious of it because it is the gospel of authoritarians everywhere, as it justifies their existence, as well as the monolithic institutions they control. That, alone, is reason for skepticism. Perhaps, more importantly, however, are the mountains of evidence to the contrary. This contention flies in the face of reality as you and I experience it. Not to mention all of the evidence from evolutionary psychology, etc.

Unfortunately, the worst representatives of humankind have oftentimes (not entirely surprisingly) have been the clerics, politicians, and generals.
 
I'd phrase it somewhat differently, I'd say such a society lives only to the extent that neighboring societies, or, more accurately, the cadre of elites that control them, don't feel threatened by it, or desire it's resources, and, then, initiate a fit of mass homicide.

Yeah, but it isn't the point that such societies are bad, or "corrosive," etc. The point is that they do exist. They aren't going to go away.

This is, ultimately, an argument agains nation-states, because it highlights the corrosive effect of nationalism, and it's fundamental incompatibility with civilization.

You say such aspects are fundamentally incompatable with civilization; in fact, they arose alongside "civilization." They are a part of civilization -- civilization ain't always pretty -- at least not all aspects of it. But to go into any further depth here, we'd have to agree on a definition of "civilization" first.

It divides people, on a completely arbitrary and irrational basis, into opposing camps.

People do that regardless. That is just what people tend to do. Arbitrary divisions were extant in human societies long before the development of nation-states, or anything resembling them.

Those in the other camps, those outside the nation-state are, at best; naughty children, at worst; vermin to be exterminated. As long as this primitive tribalism holds sway, human progress is significantly limited.

Your idealism allows you to believe, for some reason, that all mankind can transcend such behavior. My realism prevents me from holding such a belief -- if it has never happened before, where exactly are you drawing your belief from?

It very well might be impossible for a large, more-or-less,... 'fully realized', shall we say, Anarchist society to coeexist alongside other nation-states. This is another point of divergence from Marxism, I don't make any definitive assertion, nor do I claim to be able to predict the future. I think it depends on the circumstances. At this time, however, one simply cannot, definitively, say.

...and the circumstances are, and always have been, heavily against you in this matter. I'm not looking for a definitive prediction of the future, only a realistic view of mankind. Looking to the past is a good way of understanding man and his development, and looking to the past only makes the existence of such an anarchic society seem more of an impossibility.

In the interim, I have suggested following the basic principles; identifying and dismantling institutions of oppression and exploitation, etc., etc.

Well, I think that's certainly a nice suggestion, just not a realistic one. Why do you think it is possible to do such things? What are you going off of here? Certainly not history... We've already discussed how such an anarchic society was obliterated in the past.


I think it's a very accurate characterization.

You call it "primitive tribalism." Why? If we look at history, it is the default state. How is it, specifically, that you believe all of mankind can transcend this "primitive tribalism?" Something has to change to cause mankind to abandon this primitive tribalism... what?

On a serious note, my late grandfather once said to me that there are probably a great many people, who would never describe themselves as 'Anarchists', while not being particularly ideological, or approaching it in a systemic way, believe very much the same as I do. I think that's true.

On an individual basis, probably. But groups of people tend to create societies that diverge from the interest of the individual man.

Again; I don't claim to have any special knowledge, or powers of precognition.

Then where are you coming up with your belief that mankind can transcend all these issues we're discussing? As I mentioned, you certainly can't be looking to the past.

Before nation-states, there were kingdoms, and empires, of which the modern nation-state is a descendent. Before that, there were small, loosely organized tribes.

That something has not happened is not, by itself, necessarily, proof that it cannot happen. Also, this argument is a double-edged sword.

You'll need to elaborate. Why is this so, in your view? If you're hoping to base your argument in historical reality, it is clear, barring any new information, that people cannot transcend beyond, etc.


I don't find this cynical, myopic view of human nature remotely compelling.

Why, exactly? That's what all previous history and human experience has presented us with. Where do you see a change happening to allow any different?

At the outset, we should be suspicious of it because it is the gospel of authoritarians everywhere, as it justifies their existence, as well as the monolithic institutions they control.

I have no problem with being suspicious of such things. I am myself. I am also suspicious, however, of the claim that status, authoritarian tendencies, etc, can be completely suppressed or neutralized in mankind. Why wouldn't I be, there is no reason to think otherwise -- we know for a fact what people in collectives are capable of, and it isn't anything that can be described as a lasting peace.

That, alone, is reason for skepticism. Perhaps, more importantly, however, are the mountains of evidence to the contrary. This contention flies in the face of reality as you and I experience it. Not to mention all of the evidence from evolutionary psychology, etc.

Please provide this evidence. The way I see it, all the evidence flies in the face of your view. Overwhelmingly so.

Unfortunately, the worst representatives of humankind have oftentimes (not entirely surprisingly) have been the clerics, politicians, and generals.

Sure. So why do you believe that humankind can be rid of clerics, politicians, and generals? They have always eventually arisen in every society that allows for any degree of labor specialization. Societies lacking them were basically non-sedentary hunter-gatherer types, or communities being protected by, or destroyed by, societies that do have them.
 
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The best form of government is the Free Republic of the Free Citizens. All Democracies are gradually transformed to the politically correct dictatorships of vitriolic minorities and many of those will became Caliphates or States of the old people.
 
Yeah, but it isn't the point that such societies are bad, or "corrosive," etc. The point is that they do exist. They aren't going to go away.

They could, or they could not. It isn't preordained. These are artificial institutions created and sustained by human beings. They can be changed, modified, or completely dismantled.

You say such aspects are fundamentally incompatable with civilization; in fact, they arose alongside "civilization." They are a part of civilization -- civilization ain't always pretty -- at least not all aspects of it. But to go into any further depth here, we'd have to agree on a definition of "civilization" first.

Civilization is really more of a process. (So is Anarchism, incidentally.) I'm sure you're familiar with Ghandi's commentary on Western civilization; 'sounds like a good idea.' I wouldn't say we've gotten there, yet, but we're groping towards it. The process of civilization, or the progress towards civilization, involves technological and scientific advancement, pluralism, democracy, diplomacy, etc. Religion, on the whole, is generally speaking, fundamentally antithetical to this process. It is divisive, authoritarian, irrational, etc. Nation-States (Which should be distinguished from the broader 'government', which is really any model of social organization.) are similarly corrosive to society. Part of the philosophical basis of the Nation-State is that it's borders are lines of magical power, that seperate human beings into opposing teams. Every Nation-State asserts it's people are uniquely benevolent, virtuous, etc., and that theyir interests are fundamentally different from, and in conflict with, the interests of other peoples. Even something as large and complex as the Cold War was essentially a scaled-up version of tribal warfare. As long as humans are divided into competing tribes like this, again, there is going to be a cap on human progress. There's really no possibility of a thriving, technologically advanced, interplanetary civilization where these forces still hold sway. Ultimately, we will have to shrug off the vestiges of the dark ages, and step forward into the future.

People do that regardless. That is just what people tend to do. Arbitrary divisions were extant in human societies long before the development of nation-states, or anything resembling them.
There are different kinds of divisions. Every human being is different from every other human being on earth. However, the kind of tribalism or factionalism that manifests in mass violence tend to be very particular, and arise in particular ways.
Your idealism allows you to believe, for some reason, that all mankind can transcend such behavior. My realism prevents me from holding such a belief -- if it has never happened before, where exactly are you drawing your belief from?

You're essentially saying the same thing three different ways. This is the 'Human Nature' argument against Anarchism, which tends to be one of the most common. This is a big thorny issue, so I'm just going to adress it in the simplest and broadest terms, for these purposes. First, does such a thing as human nature exist? The theory that we come into this world as a tabula rasa seems to be fairly clearly debunked. We definitely come into this world pre-loaded with some rudimentary software. Aggression, and territoriality are, no doubt, wired into us, but equally so is compassion, creativity, etc. Neurology and evolutionary biology are giving us more and more evidence that humans indeed are endowed with an innate moral sense. Clearly, there is a substantial range of human existence; from the sublime to the thoroughly debased, from the Albert Einstein's and the Martin Luther King's to the Ted Bundy's, and the Osama bin Laden's. The question is what model of social organization is most ideal to complement and foster those attributes that are most beneficial for the individual, and for society at large. Clearly, just as there is a significant difference between the range of possibilities in terms of individuals, we can look at the cumulative effects of different models on the macro scale. We can look at Pinochet's Chile, or Afghanistan under the Taliban regime, and contrast that with modern day Sweden, or Canada. In general, in the west, as we have become increasingly secular, democratic, technologically advanced, etc., violence, as a part of everyday life, has, generally, plummeted precipitously. That isn't to say we don't live with horrific violence, or that it can't be drastically reduced further, I'm just speaking in comparison with preindustrial existence. In a nutshell, I would argue that it is precisely the monolithic social institutions, and the belief systems propogated to justify their existence, that create the majority of the ills that afflict modern society.
 
They could, or they could not. It isn't preordained. These are artificial institutions created and sustained by human beings. They can be changed, modified, or completely dismantled.

How exactly, on a large enough scale to make any single anarchist collective viable on its own, and not at the behest of a state?

Civilization is really more of a process. (So is Anarchism, incidentally.) I'm sure you're familiar with Ghandi's commentary on Western civilization; 'sounds like a good idea.' I wouldn't say we've gotten there, yet, but we're groping towards it. The process of civilization, or the progress towards civilization, involves technological and scientific advancement, pluralism, democracy, diplomacy, etc. Religion, on the whole, is generally speaking, fundamentally antithetical to this process. It is divisive, authoritarian, irrational, etc. Nation-States (Which should be distinguished from the broader 'government', which is really any model of social organization.) are similarly corrosive to society. Part of the philosophical basis of the Nation-State is that it's borders are lines of magical power, that seperate human beings into opposing teams. Every Nation-State asserts it's people are uniquely benevolent, virtuous, etc., and that theyir interests are fundamentally different from, and in conflict with, the interests of other peoples. Even something as large and complex as the Cold War was essentially a scaled-up version of tribal warfare. As long as humans are divided into competing tribes like this, again, there is going to be a cap on human progress. There's really no possibility of a thriving, technologically advanced, interplanetary civilization where these forces still hold sway. Ultimately, we will have to shrug off the vestiges of the dark ages, and step forward into the future.

You're essentially saying the same thing three different ways. This is the 'Human Nature' argument against Anarchism, which tends to be one of the most common. This is a big thorny issue, so I'm just going to adress it in the simplest and broadest terms, for these purposes. First, does such a thing as human nature exist? The theory that we come into this world as a tabula rasa seems to be fairly clearly debunked. We definitely come into this world pre-loaded with some rudimentary software. Aggression, and territoriality are, no doubt, wired into us, but equally so is compassion, creativity, etc. Neurology and evolutionary biology are giving us more and more evidence that humans indeed are endowed with an innate moral sense. Clearly, there is a substantial range of human existence; from the sublime to the thoroughly debased, from the Albert Einstein's and the Martin Luther King's to the Ted Bundy's, and the Osama bin Laden's. The question is what model of social organization is most ideal to complement and foster those attributes that are most beneficial for the individual, and for society at large. Clearly, just as there is a significant difference between the range of possibilities in terms of individuals, we can look at the cumulative effects of different models on the macro scale. We can look at Pinochet's Chile, or Afghanistan under the Taliban regime, and contrast that with modern day Sweden, or Canada. In general, in the west, as we have become increasingly secular, democratic, technologically advanced, etc., violence, as a part of everyday life, has, generally, plummeted precipitously. That isn't to say we don't live with horrific violence, or that it can't be drastically reduced further, I'm just speaking in comparison with preindustrial existence. In a nutshell, I would argue that it is precisely the monolithic social institutions, and the belief systems propogated to justify their existence, that create the majority of the ills that afflict modern society.

Ok, so how exactly is it going to happen? How is "civilization" going to progress?

I think I can see what your model has in common with marxism in terms of a progressive outlook, and an idealist perspective, but I can't say for sure because you haven't yet gone into the actual mechanics of how the progress, or the transcendence would take place yet. What has to happen, in your view, for mankind to move beyond this state of tribalism/statism?

As you say, there is "there is a substantial range of human existence; from the sublime to the thoroughly debased," and I agree... I said as much a few posts ago. Simply put, however, it is naive to hold the view that mankind can progress toward the "positive" end of that spectrum, when even with all of our "increasingly secular, democratic, technologically advanced" societies we are just as warlike, if not arguably more warlike. Compare the scale of human tragedy and death of the 20th century alone, perpetrated by these so-called "advanced" civilizations to preindustrial wars, and you will find that we haven't progressed as much as you think -- going by that standard alone, in fact, we've regressed.

And if you want to chalk up that to the issues created by nation-states, I have to ask: How far did man progress, in terms of civilization without them? Do you believe the industrial revolution have happened without them? The development of state-level societies (or other "mechanism of opression") and technological progress, have gone hand-in-hand in many respects. That's part of the reason our wars have become so deadly and large-scale. And I could also just as easily say that, on a day to day basis, the development of nation-states has led to a reduction of horrific violence on an everyday basis.. Although I wouldn't personally say that that corellation is necessarily true, it is similar to the argument you're making.
 
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Perhaps .. but how is that benevolence insured?

It can't be. Basically, it's just luck of the draw. Sometimes you end up with Caesar, sometimes you end up with Nero.
 
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How exactly, on a large enough scale to make any single anarchist collective viable on its own, and not at the behest of a state?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

Ok, so how exactly is it going to happen? How is "civilization" going to progress?

I think I can see what your model has in common with marxism in terms of a progressive outlook, and an idealist perspective,

If you mean in the sense of being concerned with how things should be, I'd say that's fair. However, I don't think I'm really being unrealistic, especially because I really haven't made any predictions about the future.

but I can't say for sure because you haven't yet gone into the actual mechanics of how the progress, or the transcendence would take place yet. What has to happen, in your view, for mankind to move beyond this state of tribalism/statism?

Through a myriad of means, dependent on the circumstances. The circumstances in the United States are different from those in Iran. The most important, fundamental change will have to be initiatied at a grassroots level, from the bottom-up.

As you say, there is "there is a substantial range of human existence; from the sublime to the thoroughly debased," and I agree... I said as much a few posts ago. Simply put, however, it is naive to hold the view that mankind can progress toward the "positive" end of that spectrum, when even with all of our "increasingly secular, democratic, technologically advanced" societies we are just as warlike, if not arguably more warlike. Compare the scale of human tragedy and death of the 20th century alone, perpetrated by these so-called "advanced" civilizations to preindustrial wars, and you will find that we haven't progressed as much as you think -- going by that standard alone, in fact, we've regressed.

This is a common misconception. Harvard professor Steven Pinker has done a very thorough study thoroughly debunking this bit of 'common wisdom', showing that violence, as a part of everyday life, has declined, drastically. Again; this isn't to say it can't be greatly reduced, just that it's much better than it was. Here's a presentation at TED;
‪Steven Pinker: A brief history of violence‬‏ - YouTube

And if you want to chalk up that to the issues created by nation-states, I have to ask: How far did man progress, in terms of civilization without them? Do you believe the industrial revolution have happened without them? The development of state-level societies (or other "mechanism of opression") and technological progress, have gone hand-in-hand in many respects.

I think that's a case of 'post hoc ergo propter hoc. First of all, for clarity's sake, I think it's important, here, to define what I mean by the term; 'Nation-State.' The characteristics of a Nation-State are thus; it is a clearly defined territory, with it's own economy, and a strong, centralized government, ranging from some form of Republicanism to an autocratic police state, it has it's own culture, fetishizes objects and institutions, for example the military, national myths, etc. Now, it's entirely conceivable that a highly sophisticated, modern society could function without at least many, if not most, of these features. However, I will say that modern, Western Constitutional Republics/Constitutional Marchies/Social Democracies are clearly an improvement, in a number of respects, from the empires that preceded them.


That's part of the reason our wars have become so deadly and large-scale.

See above.

And I could also just as easily say that, on a day to day basis, the development of nation-states has led to a reduction of horrific violence on an everyday basis..
Although I wouldn't personally say that that corellation is necessarily true, it is similar to the argument you're making.

Violence has been substantially reduced, however, much of the violence we see, virtually all of the large-scale violence we see is very directly, and very clearly attributable to these institutions, be they Nation-States, religion, or exploitive economic institutions.
 
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I'm not sure I understand the question.

It's the same I've been asking, I'll detail it below...

If you mean in the sense of being concerned with how things should be, I'd say that's fair. However, I don't think I'm really being unrealistic, especially because I really haven't made any predictions about the future.

I'm not saying you did, but you aren't detailing how warfare and the tendency to build states and/or coersive systems can be overcome either.

How do you think that could happen -- Do you think it will happen, for instance, on its own (as with marx's idea of worldwide revolution), or will it have to be somehow implemented?

Through a myriad of means, dependent on the circumstances. The circumstances in the United States are different from those in Iran. The most important, fundamental change will have to be initiatied at a grassroots level, from the bottom-up.

What kind of fundamental change?

This is a common misconception. Harvard professor Steven Pinker has done a very thorough study thoroughly debunking this bit of 'common wisdom', showing that violence, as a part of everyday life, has declined, drastically. Again; this isn't to say it can't be greatly reduced, just that it's much better than it was. Here's a presentation at TED;
‪Steven Pinker: A brief history of violence‬‏ - YouTube

That is interesting, but I see a few problems with his argument, and its support for yours.

1) He gives a direct comparison of violent male death in hunter-gatherer societies to the US & Europe of the twentieth century... First, those h-g societies don't necessarily correspond to all h-g societies. Many are more peaceful than others, for many reasons such as environment, etc. It would have been much more convincing to see a percentage aggregated from many more h-g societies.

But even if I concede this, because I suspect the percentage would probably still be a little higher for h-g societies as a whole because of extremely low population densities, how does this help your argument? It shows that we have become more peaceful as we have developed toward more organized governments and states, not the other way around.

2) He glosses over a lot of known history and admits he doesn't have the statistics. For the European middle ages for instance -- he talks about punishment/violence, I'll go with him there, but as far as actual medieval warfare went, it was actually very small scale, and he doesn't give any stats. In other words, he hardly talks about pre-industrial wars at all, and only really gives some anecdotes from the bible. He doesn't talk about the mechanisms of peace that did develop during the middle ages, such as the implementation of the King's Peace, or the culture of ransom and tournaments.

Fact is, as he says, we don't really have much quantitative data for much of history -- this kind of undermines his whole presentation. We can't be sure of levels of violence, statistically, in the past. All we can really say for sure is that we do know that it existed then and still exists now...

3) He notes that there's a hinge-point in the 16th century... Well, note that this corresponds pretty well to the rise of powerful the european nation-states. An argument could easily be made, and he even mentions it while referencing Hobbes and others, that the movement toward the establishment of more powerful nation-states has made things more pleasant.

Now, it's entirely conceivable that a highly sophisticated, modern society could function without at least many, if not most, of these features.

...But not as long as there are other societies around that retain these features. We're going back toward the example of the Spanish Revolution here. Yes, they built a society close to your ideal, (I suppose), that lasted a few years, but they were a society that couldn't compete with the bigger nation-states when those powers came to interfere. We don't even know what would have happened if they'd have been left alone -- how would they react to a major crisis or develop over time? The answer is: who knows? they were not able to survive against an outside power. It was tried, and it failed.

Violence has been substantially reduced, however, much of the violence we see, virtually all of the large-scale violence we see is very directly, and very clearly attributable to these institutions, be they Nation-States, religion, or exploitive economic institutions.

Absolutely. But my point is that an arnarchist collective cannot prevent a state-power from perpetrating such atrocity. Only another state power, or several, have been able to intervene to stop them. (WWII as an example). Nation-states are the double edged-sword... They do commit atrocity and oppress people (that's why advocate for very limited government), but they also function to prevent atrocities, enforce the law, and protect societies from foreign threat. That's the meaning of the phrase "government is a necessary evil."
 
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