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Are you proud to be an American?

Are you proud to be an American?

  • Total voters
    58
MistressNomad said:
My family's been here since before the Revolution. Believe me, I'm aware of its great moments.

But I think the bad heavily outweight the good. And even if that weren't the case, why on earth would I be proud of something I had nothing do with? You still can't answer that.

As to the wiki article, I would like the know the methadology. America has one of the lowest literacy rates and life expectancies in the developed world that I know of.

U.S. Lags In Life Expectancy Gains - Science News

List of countries by literacy rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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I've already answered it, albeit in a response to NGN.

First of all, if you are not proud of those things, then you can't really be ashamed of that "last to civil rights" thing you mentioned several pages back. You weren't there.

Second of all, it doesn't matter if you were there to PERSONALLY sign the constitution. By participating in certain institutions and privileges, you are helping to perpetuate the rights that those people you admire helped instill. I am proud to vote. I am proud to not be banned from clubs because I'm Jewish. I am proud to associate myself with all the positive characteristics ascribed to Americans. Are all of them unique? No. But who cares? Like I said, I'd be proud of I were Swedish, but I don't feel Swedish.

Third of all, here's the methodology for HDI: http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDI_methodology.pdf

Fourth...AHHHH now we're getting to the root of the matter. Ultimately, you believe that the bad in America outweighs the good, and THAT informs your opinion on American patriotism, etc. We could have started with this and saved a lot of time. ;)
 
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MistressNomad said:
Typical. "If you don't like it, get out!"

If you had read my earlier posts on this thread, you would know. I had the opportunity to do so twice. I decided not to so that I could put my money where my mouth was and try to make it better, because I don't care about "America." I care about people. And there are people here who suffer a lot, don't need to, and I can help change that. I can affect more positive change by staying where change is more needed than by leaving and being content. I was happier living abroad, but I wasn't as meaningful.
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....so go to Sudan?

I feel like they need a lot more help. Your mouth would have a lot more money in it if you went.
 
I'm not ashamed of our history. Disappointed, maybe. What I'm ashamed of is the bad things going on now, which I have tried to affect but have so far failed to. Thus, it applies to me.

I have lived in countries I was far happier with. I considered moving there permanently. I still wasn't "proud." Even though I affected society, I had nothing to do with what that plot of land calls itself. I was appreciative, though.
 
Jeezy said:
....so go to Sudan?

I feel like they need a lot more help. Your mouth would have a lot more money in it if you went.
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I would, but for practicality. There's a line over which it simply becomes suicidal. As a woman, that line is closer than it would be for a man. And as a white person, that line is closer still than it would be if I were black. Practically speaking, there is nothing I can do in an environment like Sudan other than put band-aids over bullet holes. They have to do that themselves. Also, I am already a citizen of a country that is struggling to maintain its status as a developed country. It is easier and more effective for me to stay. Though I have drawn a hard line of when such a time would be that I would leave.
 
What kind of STUPID ****ing question is THIS!?!?! Im poor and god damn PROUD to be an American!!!!! :2usflag:
 
MistressNomad said:
I would, but for practicality. There's a line over which it simply becomes suicidal. As a woman, that line is closer than it would be for a man. And as a white person, that line is closer still than it would be if I were black. Practically speaking, there is nothing I can do in an environment like Sudan other than put band-aids over bullet holes. They have to do that themselves. Also, I am already a citizen of a country that is struggling to maintain its status as a developed country. It is easier and more effective for me to stay. Though I have drawn a hard line of when such a time would be that I would leave.
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...

...

I think the money just fell out of your mouth. America isn't "struggling" to maintain its status as a developed country by any measure. That's a completely ludicrous claim.
 
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Jeezy said:
...

...

I think the money just fell out of your mouth.
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Why? It's pointless for me to go somewhere like Sudan and affect lasting change. This is part of the reason I mainly donate to situational causes when I give to charity. Doing anything else is pointless in the long-term, and only serves to drag out current conditions.
 
Very proud to be an AMerican. I even have so of that sily this is my attitude. But pride comes in wanting the best for the country and doesn't mean never looking at the warts.
 
Boo Radley said:
Very proud to be an AMerican. I even have so of that sily this is my attitude. But pride comes in wanting the best for the country and doesn't mean never looking at the warts.
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Boo Radley agrees me. This is fantastic.

MistressNomad said:
Why? It's pointless for me to go somewhere like Sudan and affect lasting change. This is part of the reason I mainly donate to situational causes when I give to charity. Doing anything else is pointless in the long-term, and only serves to drag out current conditions.
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I don't think you understand how hilarious this post is, in the backdrop of everything you've said in this thread.
 
Thinking about it, my thought process goes like this:

Am I proud of my country? Well, I have enough to eat. My family is safe. I have a good job. I can do pretty much what I want, due to my means. I enjoy my life.

Would I have this in any other first world country? Most likely.

Is there anything special about this country that is not offered by another other first world country, that is important to me? Not really.

Would I rather life somewhere else? Moving is expensive, uncertain, and I doubt I would get any additional benefit by moving.
 
Yes I am proud to be an American.

I may not like the things that we as a people do at times or what our government does at times. But I am proud to be an American.

I am proud of the ideals that this nation was founded upon...and the progress that we have made in making this a more free society...even if there have been setbacks we have still continued forward in that respect. I am also proud of what this nation has accomplished technological wise also. Before the US came along people were still using the same means of transportation that had been around for over a thousand years. Before the US came along people still used oil to light houses, and wood was still used to heat a house. Before the US came along it could take months for a simple message to get from point A to point B, if you were lucky enough to have access to carrier pigeons then only days or a couple of weeks. And we accomplished many other things that no other nation accomplished for thousands of years. Indeed it was imo the US and her technological advancements that allowed other countries to make thier own technological advancements. And it was all due to how this country was set up.

Yeah, I may not have had anything to do with any of that..may not even have anything to do with any other type of advancement. But that doesn't have to stop me from feeling pride in my country and her accomplishments. Why? Because as a nation and a culture our history is still apart of us. It defines America.
 
Jeezy said:
I don't think you understand how hilarious this post is, in the backdrop of everything you've said in this thread.
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I look at things practically. Practically, propping up things like that, whether with time or money, doesn't help. So I don't do it.

If you have an exceptionally poor understanding of charity, that may appear to you to be "choosing not the help." What it is in reality is a recognition that certain environments make helping impossible, and they must be allowed to burn out on their own before that becomes possible.

My desire to help is emotional, but if I act on it in stupid ways it's rather pointless, isn't it. Your poor grasp on the issue has nothing to do with me.
 
As to the question, based on the definition I provided, yes, I am proud to be an American. As with all things, there are good and bad things, but overall, I am happy with the way things are run, the accessibility we have to things, and our general freedom to both do things and to disagree. I have no issue with being associated with this country.
 
MistressNomad said:
I look at things practically. Practically, propping up things like that, whether with time or money, doesn't help. So I don't do it.

If you have an exceptionally poor understanding of charity, that may appear to you to be "choosing not the help." What it is in reality is a recognition that certain environments make helping impossible, and they must be allowed to burn out on their own before that becomes possible.

My desire to help is emotional, but if I act on it in stupid ways it's rather pointless, isn't it. Your poor grasp on the issue has nothing to do with me.
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It's more of the whole "I feel for people and want to help them, but as a white women there are some places I'm really scared to go so I'm not going to help those people."

That fact that you aren't capable of feeling pride in anything where you don't happen to notice your direct and immediate involvement is kind of sad.

The fact that you equate national pride with conceit, even though several people here have said it is not so, is even sadder.

Do you feel at home anywhere? Because when the people in this thread think if America, they think of it as "home." Heimat.

Heimat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Heimat began as an integral aspect of German, Austrian and Swiss identity that was patriotic without being nationalistic
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...and it's honestly a little depressing that outside yourself, things like that don't exist for you. They're certainly there. But you've chosen to believe that the bad of America outweighs the good, and that America is the festering armpit of the first world, even though there is certainly no consensus on the subject.
 
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spud_meister said:
I'd like to say, for people who share this opinion or similar:


It must really suck to not have pride in your country, sports team, and your friends or family, that you can't feel pride in someone for overcoming a great difficulty, for a team or athlete exceeding all expectations if you had no hand in it. I have a cousin who is an extraordinary guitarist, I'm proud when I see her playing stuff by Django Reinhart, even though I had no hand in her success.
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But you're talking about something completely different there. Are you proud of her talents/accomplishments, or are you proud because of the accident of birth that she's your cousin as opposed to someone else's cousin?

I'm proud of the United States when it does something right (i.e. the civil rights movement, victory in World War II). But that pride has nothing to do with the fact that I was born here...I'm proud of those accomplishments in the same detached sense that I'm proud of China for lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, or that I'm proud of Egypt for overthrowing a corrupt dictator, or that I'm proud of Brazil for working to reduce its wealth disparity. But I'm not proud to *be* an American, because it's not an accomplishment to have been born here.
 
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Jeezy said:
It's more of the whole "I feel for people and want to help them, but as a white women there are some places I'm really scared to go so I'm not going to help those people."

That fact that you aren't capable of feeling pride in anything where you don't happen to notice your direct and immediate involvement is kind of sad.

The fact that you equate national pride with conceit, even though several people here have said it is not so, is even sadder.

Do you feel at home anywhere? Because when the people in this thread think if America, they think of it as "home." Heimat.

...and it's honestly a little depressing that outside yourself, things like that don't exist for you. They're certainly there. But you've chosen to believe that the bad of America outweighs the good, and that America is the festering armpit of the first world, even though there is certainly no consensus on the subject.
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Doing anything productive would require me to martyr myself, and ultimately I would change nothing. Once again, you are being ignorant of the reality of things. It's not a matter of being scared - it's a matter of it being ineffective. I'm not "scared" of giving my money to places like that - I can't possibly die over that - but I still don't do it because it won't help.

Forgive me for not patting myself on the back for things I didn't do - including being white.

I feel at home anywhere I hang my hat. Doesn't really matter what chunk of dirt I'm on.

You find it depressing because that's the mindset you exist in. Same reason religious people find atheism "depressing." And that's your terminology, not mine. Demonizing people for dogmatic purposes is fairly common.
 
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MistressNomad said:
Doing anything productive would require me to martyr myself, and ultimately I would change nothing. Once again, you are being ignorant of the reality of things. It's not a matter of being scared - it's a matter of it being ineffective. I'm not "scared" of giving my money to places like that - I can't possibly die over that - but I still don't do it because it won't help.
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So don't give your money. Volunteer and go. There are organizations to help you do so. You could teach English. Seems effective.

MistressNomad said:
Forgive me for not patting myself on the back for things I didn't do - including being white.
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Who said anything about patting yourself on the back for being white? I didn't.

It's already been explained numerous times that not having been there to do those things doesn't matter one bit.

MistressNomad said:
I feel at home anywhere I hang my hat. Doesn't really matter what chunk of dirt I'm on.
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And yet you came back here, with some cockamaime excuse about wanting to help the poor desperate people of America. Home had nothing to do with it?

I don't know if I believe that.

MistressNomad said:
You find it depressing because that's the mindset you exist in. Same reason religious people find atheism "depressing." And that's your terminology, not mine. Demonizing people for dogmatic purposes is fairly common.
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Not at all. I could certainly conceive of a happy atheist. It's not hard. It's just kind of odd.

You feel shame for America's past evils, yet ambivalent about its past good deeds. Your heart bleeds for the plight of people, yet you're here, in a place where people live very well, out of convenience to yourself....returning due to some farcical mission of stopping American from ceasing to be a developed country.

It's like Don Quixote tilting against a windmill, but even worse. At least he backed it up. You seem more like a fly-by-night sourpuss with an ax to grind.
 
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Jeezy said:
So don't give your money. Volunteer and go. There are organizations to help you do so. You could teach English. Seems effective.
Click to expand...

Again, missing the point. And your proposed solution is displaying exactly how pointless pride melts ones brain. Teach them English? Why? How does that help them? Oh, because America speaks English. Right. So... how does that fix their desperately broken state again?

Who said anything about patting yourself on the back for being white? I didn't.

It's already been explained numerous times that not having been there to do those things doesn't matter one bit.
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Please explain how pride in an accident of birth is more valid as regards the chunk of dirt it happened on than it is the amount of melanin you have in your skin.

And yet you came back here, with some cockamaime excuse about wanting to help the poor desperate people of America. Home had nothing to do with it?

I don't know if I believe that.
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Don't care if you believe it or not. :shrug: Apart from the fact that you've portrayed a fallacious explanation of my reasoning.

Not at all. I could certainly conceive of a happy atheist. It's not hard. It's just kind of odd.

You feel shame for America's past evils, yet ambivalent about its past good deeds. Your heart bleeds for the plight of people, yet you're here, in a place where people live very well, out of convenience to yourself....returning due to some farcical mission of stopping American from ceasing to be a developed country.

It's like Don Quixote tilting against a windmill, but even worse. At least he was an idealist and believed in the abstract notion of chivalry. You seem more like a fly-by-night sourpuss with an ax to grind.
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Once again, ridiculous demonization based on things I haven't said. The fact that we trail in most metrics of developed nations is simply a fact. I'm going over the methodology you provided, but it's from 1994, and every single other source I consult disagrees with that study. I see the effects of that a lot. I know someone who's about to have to go on disability because he can't get health insurance to treat his tendinitis. The same people bitching about "lazy people on the dole" are also gung-ho to prevent people from staying off it by getting medical care. Things like that. Things that no other developed nation is dealing with anymore, and most of them fixed that problem decades ago. It's kind of pathetic and yeah, I'd like to see it change.

Feel free to continue writing your own personal fantasy, and when you'd like to know what I think, let me know.
 
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MistressNomad said:
Again, missing the point. And your proposed solution is displaying exactly how pointless pride melts ones brain. Teach them English? Why? How does that help them? Oh, because America speaks English. Right. So... how does that fix their desperately broken state again?
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:roll:

Alright. Fine. Don't teach them English. Teach them whatever you think would help. LEARN something that would help, and THEN teach them. Having them learning English could make all that easier, but of course you have to equate it to nationalism, when it's really just bridging the communication gap.

Dig wells. Administer immunization shots -- takes zero medical experience to do that.

MistressNomad said:
Please explain how pride in an accident of birth is more valid as regards the chunk of dirt it happened on than it is the amount of melanin you have in your skin.
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Because there's really no such thing as a white race. It's just a bunch of different groups who had sex until no one recognized each other anymore. Even De Maistre didn't believe in white supremacy. The lumping of all whites together is more or less a coincidence. It's not like they all had sex and said "...voila! We are white!" Creating the white race was more or less accidental. The institutions of the United States? Not accidental.

I live here of my own free will, knowing that I want to be considered a citizen of this country.

You're here basically despite yourself.

Every international institution codifies a "right to a homeland." You've chosen to waive that right.

MistressNomad said:
The fact that we trail in most metrics of developed nations is simply a fact.
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...one that you enjoy blowing out of all conceivable proportion by saying we're about to drop out of developed nation status.

MistressNomad said:
I'm going over the methodology you provided, but it's from 1994, and every single other source I consult disagrees with that study.
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The HDI isn't really a study. It's an ongoing indicator measured by the UN. And I have yet to see an HDI where we're dead last in the industrialized world.

Indices & Data | Human Development Index | Human Development Reports (HDR) | United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)

MistressNomad said:
I see the effects of that a lot. I know someone who's about do have to go on disability because he can't get health insurance to treat his tendonitis. The same people bitching about "lazy people on the dole" are also gung-ho to prevent people from staying off it by getting medical care. Things like that. Things that no other developed nation is dealing with anymore, and most of them fixed that problem decades ago. It's kind of pathetic and yeah, I'd like to see it change.
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I hear the sound of axes grinding...

You think you're the only one with a health insurance nightmare story? I have some too, along with some foreclosure stories and police stories.

And yet I'm still proud to be American.
 
Jeezy said:
:roll:

Alright. Fine. Don't teach them English. Teach them whatever you think would help. LEARN something that would help, and THEN teach them. Having them learning English could make all that easier, but of course you have to equate it to nationalism, when it's really just bridging the communication gap.

Dig wells. Administer immunization shots -- takes zero medical experience to do that.
Click to expand...

That is the point. There is a certain level of societal collapse at which it doesn't help. Interventionism at that level of dysfunction is a band-aid over a bullet hole. Same reason I think our cycle with Iraq is so stupid - it's the same concept on a deeper scale.

They need to do this themselves. Notice how the Arab Spring has hit the least or not at all in the countries in which we intervened in beforehand, or have been involved in an on-going hat change with their government, and yet their circumstances are no better.

Because there's really no such thing as a white race. It's just a bunch of different groups who had sex until no one recognized each other anymore. Even De Maistre didn't believe in white supremacy. The lumping of all whites together is more or less a coincidence. It's not like they all had sex and said "...voila! We are white!" Creating the white race was more or less accidental. The institutions of the United States? Not accidental.

I live here of my own free will, knowing that I want to be considered a citizen of this country.

You're here basically despite yourself.

Every international institution codifies a "right to a homeland." You've chosen to waive that right.
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Oh look! You've got it!

Me being American is a coincidence. Had I created America, that wouldn't be the case, but I didn't.

How can I despise myself if my criticism is aimed towards something I don't identify with? Hmmm...

The HDI isn't really a study. It's an ongoing indicator measured by the UN. And I have yet to see an HDI where we're dead last in the industrialized world.

Indices & Data | Human Development Index | Human Development Reports (HDR) | United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)
Click to expand...

And like I said, everything else I've reading contradicts it rather heavily. Still looking into it.

I hear the sound of axes grinding...

You think you're the only one with a health insurance nightmare story? I have some too, along with some foreclosure stories and police stories.

And yet I'm still proud to be American.
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Good for you. I think that's silly. I've told you why. You can't tell me why not.
 
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I'm very proud to be an American. I've been part of many small things that make our country great. Too much focus is spent on national or international topics. I'm proud because of how I have been treated in this country and how I have treated my fellow Americans.
 
Goshin said:
So, since you think America is so bad, I assume you've renounced your citizenship? After all, why would you want to be associated with such an evil nation.

If I thought America was as awful as you seem to, I'd be calling my Canadian buddies and telling them to expect company...
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Why ruin Canada? I think I'd go to Somalia.
 
MistressNomad said:
That is the point. There is a certain level of societal collapse at which it doesn't help. Interventionism at that level of dysfunction is a band-aid over a bullet hole. Same reason I think our cycle with Iraq is so stupid - it's the same concept on a deeper scale.

They need to do this themselves. Notice how the Arab Spring has hit the least or not at all in the countries in which we intervened in beforehand, or have been involved in an on-going hat change with their government, and yet their circumstances are no better.



Oh look! You've got it!

Me being American is a coincidence. Had I created America, that wouldn't be the case, but I didn't.

How can I despise myself if my criticism is aimed towards something I don't identify with? Hmmm...



And like I said, everything else I've reading contradicts it rather heavily. Still looking into it.



Good for you. I think that's silly. I've told you why. You can't tell me why not.
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It's astonishing the lengths you will go to, to avoid admitting that America is at least a pretty good country and those who live here have reason to feel pleasure/satisfaction (ie pride of association) that they do.
 
spud_meister said:
It must really suck to not have pride in your country, sports team, and your friends or family, that you can't feel pride in someone for overcoming a great difficulty, for a team or athlete exceeding all expectations if you had no hand in it. I have a cousin who is an extraordinary guitarist, I'm proud when I see her playing stuff by Django Reinhart, even though I had no hand in her success.
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You nailed it on the head, buddy. The fact that you struck a nerve bears that out.

I'm proud of my kids, and I know they're proud of me, even though they didn't choose me. Fate did not dictate that they feel this way. If I had been an abusive father, I would have deserved nothing less than their scorn. But I sought to nurture and protect them. I tried to impart some measure of wisdom to them and lead by example. I wasn't perfect by any means, but they always knew in their hearts that I meant well. I think they loved me for that, and they're proud of the father I was and am. I know they would do anything for me, even though I hope they would not. If they had felt otherwise, I wouldn't have kicked them out of the house, but I know it would have hurt. In a weaker moment, I might have wondered if they really loved me and asked myself if I'd failed in some way as a parent. Fortunately, that's not the way things turned out. I feel pride in them, and they in me. Pride for another in the name of love is a good and wonderful thing.
 
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