Do you believe democratic elections in Iraq were a harbringer of the Arab Spring?

StillBallin75 said:

No. When it comes to the actions of the protesters in Tunisia, I highly doubt that they took the events going on in Iraq more into account than the events that were going on in their own country. The Arab Spring was pretty much spontaneous. I believe there was a domino effect, but it started in Tunisia, not Iraq.

I believe that both people who say that Bush destabilized the region by going into Iraq, and people who say that Iraqi elections inspired the Arab Spring, are incorrect. Social unrest, being fed up with dictatorships, food prices going through the roof, high unemployment, the use of social media, all of these factors contributed way more to the bubble bursting than what was happening in Iraq.

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Wouldn't want Bush to get an positive credit, that's for sure. There was all kinds of democracy going on before 9/11, all kinds everywhere. There is absolutely zero coincidence with the war in Iraq or Afghanistan, none whatsoever. Anyone that see a connection should be hospitalized. It was Obama that did it. All his hard work, apologizing for America that did it.

obvious Child said:

Eh. It could be argued that Iraq actually was detrimental to the Arab spring. The Iraqi government is one of the least competent administrations seen in the Middle East in a very long time. They cannot even agree upon who to give cabinet positions to much less fix the basic services Iraqis need. Furthermore, the democratic process highlighted just how sectarian divisions within a country can cause massive chaos. Not to mention that Iraq is one of the least homogeneous populations in the Middle East. As for more recourse, that depends who you ask.

If anything, Israel's recent conviction and imprisonment of its former leaders has more impact. If the hated Jews have more capacity to enforce accountability on their government, that's just downright embarrassing to Arabs who consider themselves superior.

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There isn't anything that you couldn't argue about or find an excuse for. No doubt you could find a way to show that Obama caused it to happen. He's the Messiah, it must have been him right?

ludahai said:

Because there is a common identity as Arabs and it was broadcast pretty prominently on Al Jazerra and other Arab news channels in many of those countries...

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However, the same groups that funded the core groups that were involved in the Orange Revolution and the Rose revolution were active in Tunisia and in Egypt, providing the same sort of training and organization building.

As for common identity, would not the chaos, death, destruction and interal displacement that took place in Iraq be more of a warning against democracy then for it. Afterall life in Tunisia was better then life in Iraq at the time of the revolution in Tunisia

For this to be true then there had to be democratic elections in Iraq.... The first election was without participation of one huge part of the population, and the second election if you can call it that, has produced no results.. they cant even form a stable government let alone any policies. If anything Iraq has shown Arabs and us the utter failure of democracy without the institutions, will and legalities to make it work. Most of the top Iraq leadership are in it for the money... pure and simple. There is more corruption there now than there was under Saddam... the only difference is that Kurds and Shia now have a voice in gobbling up the corruption money.

What has brought the "Arab spring" was the Arab satellite media, where mostly open political debate and discussion, something unheard off just 10 years ago, has been ripe. These media's have also been an outlet to show the incompetence of Arab governments in pretty much every country starting with Iraq. They still dont have power all day in Iraq... and have lost more than 18 billion dollars during the first year of US occupation alone.... money lost to massive corruption. All this has been widely pushed in Arab media and the political debates about such things have slowly but surely given a voice to those portions of the population that are oppressed. Add to that the internet, and you have a building blocks for the Arab spring.... which like it or not has very little to do with democracy, but tribe against tribe, faction against faction.

Oman and Qatar, the home countries of the major Arab satellite news companies, have far far far far more to help with the so called Arab spring than Iraq or anyone else.

But that is all dependent on if you actually believe there has been an "Arab spring" in the first place... which I dont. It is just another label of dictatorships that have taken over in Egypt and Tunisia....

Werw there actually "democratic" elections in Iraq ??
I was not there, but, were there democratic elections in our nation in the 1800s ?
Obvious answer is NO !
And to this day, to our shame, elections are bought and sold...but, this does not always work ....to our credit...
So, we are making progress, however slow and the Iraqis will do the same, placing religion where it belongs will be a huge help.

StillBallin75 said:

No. When it comes to the actions of the protesters in Tunisia, I highly doubt that they took the events going on in Iraq more into account than the events that were going on in their own country. The Arab Spring was pretty much spontaneous. I believe there was a domino effect, but it started in Tunisia, not Iraq.

I believe that both people who say that Bush destabilized the region by going into Iraq, and people who say that Iraqi elections inspired the Arab Spring, are incorrect. Social unrest, being fed up with dictatorships, food prices going through the roof, high unemployment, the use of social media, all of these factors contributed way more to the bubble bursting than what was happening in Iraq.

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This makes a hell of a lot more sense than what the conservatives are spewing.
But I do think that Mr Bush, the younger, accelerated the progress of man by invading Iraq, but, at a cost (to us) too great.

earthworm said:

This makes a hell of a lot more sense than what the conservatives are spewing.
But I do think that Mr Bush, the younger, accelerated the progress of man by invading Iraq, but, at a cost (to us) too great.

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This real issue with the invasion is that he let it grow and grow - far beyond the original intent or purose.

ElCid said:

The Arabs only want TWO things: Islamic theocracy and BLOOD.

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Not true.
To categorize all Arabs (or any society) is stupid, much that same as we did to the Italians or the Irish.
Yes, there are extremists, and this is the problem.
Education, social networking, knowledge will lessen this hateful extremism..

Aunt Spiker said:

This real issue with the invasion is that he let it grow and grow - far beyond the original intent or purose.

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It's what he thought it took to do the job right. The problem was that the original plan was half-assed to begin with.

StillBallin75 said:

It's what he thought it took to do the job right. The problem was that the original plan was half-assed to begin with.

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The original plan - *snark* there WAS no original plan worth speaking of. It went like this . . . . "oh, he's renigged on our stupid little agreement. . . we'll now invade his country with our troops . . . oh LOOK! How convenient . . . . now we'll send MORE people over and stay around way too damn long . . . "

that's it - the whole shebang summed up right there.

American said:

There isn't anything that you couldn't argue about or find an excuse for.

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Sure. Lots of your positions are not based on facts. Therefore I couldn't argue them either way as their foundation doesn't exist. A good argument, including counterfactuals rely upon a foundation of solid facts. Therefore, there is plenty I couldn't argue about or find an excuse for.

No doubt you could find a way to show that Obama caused it to happen. He's the Messiah, it must have been him right?

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You clearly must be mistaking me for someone who actually likes (and voted for) Obama. Or you are a massive hack who ignored my numerous posts detailing how Obama is little more then Bush's third term.

Lord Tammerlain said:

However, the same groups that funded the core groups that were involved in the Orange Revolution and the Rose revolution were active in Tunisia and in Egypt, providing the same sort of training and organization building.

As for common identity, would not the chaos, death, destruction and interal displacement that took place in Iraq be more of a warning against democracy then for it. Afterall life in Tunisia was better then life in Iraq at the time of the revolution in Tunisia

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Not necessarily, especially given that the situation has improved markedly in recent years. Furthermore, while many of us in the West and in the East Asian democracies tend to take democracy for granted (amazing that after only 15 years of democracy, Taiwanese are already taking it for granted) it is a powerful lure for many people, for all of its imperfections. The ability to express yourself and make your own choices is a powerful lure.

Aunt Spiker said:

The original plan - *snark* there WAS no original plan worth speaking of. It went like this . . . . "oh, he's renigged on our stupid little agreement. . . we'll now invade his country with our troops . . . oh LOOK! How convenient . . . . now we'll send MORE people over and stay around way too damn long . . . "

that's it - the whole shebang summed up right there.

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To be fair...that's not very convenient at all. It just sounds like a stupid thing to want to do, both rationally and politically.

StillBallin75 said:

To be fair...that's not very convenient at all. It just sounds like a stupid thing to want to do, both rationally and politically.

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Exactly.

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