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Is Abortion wrong?

Is abortion wrong?

  • Total voters
    49
MistressNomad said:
Do you believe life begins at conception? Or at any point early in pregnancy?

If the answer is yes, then you most assuredly do believe in "magic essence" as personhood. whether you choose to call it that or not. If no, then you don't. But there is also then no argument for being against abortion.
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Oh please...That is just an absurd argument.
 
evanescence said:
Yes, society. And thankfully, this society still values at least a modicum of privacy and personal liberty. Also, twins do not compare to ZEFs.
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So society is right because its society? That isn't a very good argument.
 
Henrin said:
Oh please...That is just an absurd argument.
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No, it isn't. It is a basless belief with no evidence to support it, and lots of evidence to the contrary. You believe, for reasons you can neither explain nor support, that personhood is somehow endowed upon a bunch of cells that aren't even differentiated, let alone assimilated into anything. What else do you call that besides "magic?"
 
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MistressNomad said:
No, it isn't. It is a basless belief with no evidence to support it, and lots of evidence to the contrary. You belief, for reasons you can neither explain nor support, that personhood is somehow endowed upon a bunch of cells that aren't even diffrentiated, let alone assimilated into anything. What else do you call that besides "magic?"
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They aren't assimilated into anything? Lol. Talk about no proof for your position. I have supported my claim several times and without rebuttal. Read my other abortion posts and you will see those cases.
 
evanescence said:
Who is "right"? Morality is subjective unless there is some sort of Universal Standard of morality-and there isn't.
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Morality is always subjective. What is and what is not is not subjective.
 
MistressNomad said:
I won't claim to know that this is what he's saying, but as I understand it, and as I personally think of it, it comes down to this:

Whether the person is religious in a larger sense doesn't change that the only argument against abortion is "magical essence," as he puts it. Such beliefs are not limited to any particular dogma. Hell, I know one or two atheists who believe in "human by magical essence." Atheism only has to do with deities - any other supernatural stuff is still fair game. Hell, a straight-up Buddhist is an atheist, but they still believe in reincarnation.
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Yeah, that's what I meant.

MistressNomad said:
I think it may be incorrect to call this a religious belief, since it isn't limited to religion. But it is most certainly an irrational and unsubstantiated belief that comes from a place of superstitious and magical thinking, like religion does.
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How do we define 'religion'? I would even go so far as to say Leninism, or National Socialism, while they don't have a cosmology, per se, are virtually identical to religion by every other metric. I characterize this belief as 'religious' because it is supernatural, and it has it's roots in religious dogma, it's usually a package deal.

MistressNomad said:
As far as I can tell, this is the main argument against abortion. It is based on a supernatural claim that is without foundation, and is in fact verifiability wrong.
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Yup.
 
Henrin said:
Morality is always subjective. What is and what is not is not subjective.
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I disagree. For rational people; 'right' and 'wrong' are, essentially aessments about the well-being of homo sapiens. That isn't theoretical, nor is it subjective.

I'd still love to hear how you can conclude that a zygote 'is', or 'is' equivalent to, a human being like us, without invoking the supernatural. This contention is scientifically indefensible.
 
Henrin said:
They aren't assimilated into anything? Lol. Talk about no proof for your position. I have supported my claim several times and without rebuttal. Read my other abortion posts and you will see those cases.
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Your statement merely shows that you have no understanding of how reproduction works. Cells must diffrentiate to perform the functions of a complex mammal. Liver cells, brain cells, etc. They start off in a non-diffrentiated state. Actually, they start off merely being sex cells with incomplete DNA. So yes, you are saying that a bunch of functionless cells that don't even have a completed gene sequence is a human being. Magic.
 
MistressNomad said:
Your statement merely shows that you have no understanding of how reproduction works. Cells must diffrentiate to perform the functions of a complex mammal. Liver cells, brain cells, etc. They start off in a non-diffrentiated state. Actually, they start off merely being sex cells with incomplete DNA. So yes, you are saying that a bunch of functionless cells that don't even have a completed gene sequence is a human being. Magic.
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No I'm not.
 
evanescence said:
Semantics. We're discussing abortion, and your basic claim is that abortion is immoral. Back up your claim.
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Where did I write the word immoral before this post?
 
NGNM85 said:
How do we define 'religion'? I would even go so far as to say Leninism, or National Socialism, while they don't have a cosmology, per se, are virtually identical to religion by every other metric. I characterize this belief as 'religious' because it is supernatural, and it has it's roots in religious dogma, it's usually a package deal.
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Well, dogmatism is present in both religion and in some political/governmental structures, as you say. The dogmatism in religion doesn't have to be based on anything that is observable. But in cases of extreme authoritarian governments, it is based on observable leaders. So dogmatism itself doesn't necessarily rely on being based on something mythological. This doesn't make dogmatism any less irrational. But there is difference between religion and extreme athoritarian governments.

The word "religion" usually connotates a larger belief structure. As I said, while most people who apply "magical essence" to personhood, they are anti-choice. But I do know one or two exceptions to that. The belief itself is irrational, but it doesn't seem to affect anything outside of itself (i.e. the same people have no problem with war, the death penalty, etc, and some are even pro-choice and would have an abortion themselves).

It may be more accurate to simply call it a supernatural and irrational belief. Believing in ghosts isn't necessarily religious, and I don't think anyone would call it a religion. It's along the same lines - just applying "magical essence" after death rather than before fetal viability.
 
Centrist77 said:
I deflected?? :shock:
uhm I brought up legality because of YOUR example LMAO
your example has no barring on the subject and is irrelevant.
Its an appeal to emotion and holds no weight in the debate because YOUR example is of a different legality.

LMAO sorry some people live in reality and some dont, you fall in the later category.

You sir did NOT stay on topic because cutting a daughters head off for having sex is NOT the same as abortion.

You deflected with an appeal to emotion and the proof is all right here.:lamo

Do you read what you write?
Ill still be waiting for your example of me deflecting instead of bold face lies:laughat:

also, just a side note, commenting on my emoticons instead of staying on topic is also technically a deflection, just saying ;)

but please continue :D
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only homosexuals and women use emoticons in every post. are you female?
 
lewstherin said:
only homosexuals and women use emoticons in every post. are you female?
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Please see post 230, stop deflecting, stay on topic and instead of TRYING to throw insults simply man up and address your false claims.

Your false claims were that abortion is the same as chopping a daughters head off for having sex and a person throwing a baby in a dumpster.

ANd you made these cliams against a post that was talking about resposiblity while ignoring legality.

Ill be waiting. :D
 
Centrist77 said:
Please see post 230, stop deflecting, stay on topic and instead of TRYING to throw insults simply man up and address your false claims.

Your false claims were that abortion is the same as chopping a daughters head off for having sex and a person throwing a baby in a dumpster.

ANd you made these cliams against a post that was talking about resposiblity while ignoring legality.

Ill be waiting. :D
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i already answered that question...if not to your smiley posting ass, then to someone else.
attempt to twist and deflect all you wish. you're already obsolete.
 
lewstherin said:
i already answered that question...if not to your smiley posting ass, then to someone else.
attempt to twist and deflect all you wish. you're already obsolete.
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Dont care what you did to others Im talking about our conversation LMAO
You keep choosing to dodge and deflect while Im staying on topic and asking you to defend you false claim which you obviously cant. But its exactly what I ecpected because you cant back up something that simply is not true ;)

Again please man up and supply any evidence, support or back up your statments.
 
Centrist77 said:
Dont care what you did to others Im talking about our conversation LMAO
You keep choosing to dodge and deflect while Im staying on topic and asking you to defend you false claim which you obviously cant. But its exactly what I ecpected because you cant back up something that simply is not true ;)

Again please man up and supply any evidence, support or back up your statments.
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i already backed it up. quit deflecting and refute the response made.
 
Moderator's Warning:
lewstherin is now thread banned. All future posts will incur 5 point DBAJ infractions.

Please stop discussing each other and get back on topic.
 
Well theres goes that.

Can anyone else back up the false claim the abortion is no different than father chopping off their daughters head because they had sex before they should have or the same as throwing a 2 week old baby in a dumpster and that proves abortion is wrong.

Abortion maybe wrong in ways but its right in others and it certainly isnt wrong because its the same as murdering your daughter for having sex to early thats just stupid and illogical.
 
Centrist77 said:
Well theres goes that.

Can anyone else back up the false claim the abortion is no different than father chopping off their daughters head because they had sex before they should have or the same as throwing a 2 week old baby in a dumpster and that proves abortion is wrong.

Abortion maybe wrong in ways but its right in others and it certainly isnt wrong because its the same as murdering your daughter for having sex to early thats just stupid and illogical.
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I won't back up that claim, but I will say that both are murder morally speaking. A zef is a human life. It's an individual life and abortion is the killing of that individual life. It's the death of a human life at the elective choice of a pregnant woman, this is wrong.
 
digsbe said:
I won't back up that claim, but I will say that both are murder morally speaking. A zef is a human life. It's an individual life and abortion is the killing of that individual life. It's the death of a human life at the elective choice of a pregnant woman, this is wrong.
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Sorrry Digs but currently 6/21/2011 in America abortion is not murder and thats a fact.
You are only talking about what YOU view as YOUR morals, which is fine with me, im glad we live in a country where you get what you want and so do others.

Now we just agree to disagree on our other opinions, legal abortion takes place before viablity so Ill never see it as ending a life because I cant find the logic to do so.

I can also easily see the logic behind arguing that its wrong to bring a kid into the world that isnt wanted or cant be provided for. So stopping that before it happens for people that dont view unviable cells as life or killing have just as much ground to stand on as those who have different morals.
 
Centrist77 said:
Sorrry Digs but currently 6/21/2011 in America abortion is not murder and thats a fact.
You are only talking about what YOU view as YOUR morals, which is fine with me, im glad we live in a country where you get what you want and so do others.

Now we just agree to disagree on our other opinions, legal abortion takes place before viablity so Ill never see it as ending a life because I cant find the logic to do so.

I can also easily see the logic behind arguing that its wrong to bring a kid into the world that isnt wanted or cant be provided for. So stopping that before it happens for people that dont view unviable cells as life or killing have just as much ground to stand on as those who have different morals.
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Legally it may not be murder, but morally it is. In the majority of states that have defined marriage, it is fact that homosexual relationships cannot qualify as a marriage in the majority of states. Just because something is in the law books doesn't mean that it's the right thing nor does it also mean that because the law disagrees that something is inherently moral or immoral.

I believe that when it comes to abortion that my morals need to be reflected in the laws to protect the lives of the unborn. I don't think someone's personal morals should ever justify the killing of another human life. It's no different when a man in his own moral code believes that it's ok to kill another person for sleeping with his wife or for offending him.

Legal abortion is not restricted to just viability, and even if a fetus isn't viable I do not believe that justified killing it. We know that the fetus will become a viable human being in time. I think this would be similar to pulling the plug on someone who is kept alive via a life support system when we know that within a few weeks that the person on life support will make a full recovery.
 
digsbe said:
Legally it may not be murder, but morally it is. In the majority of states that have defined marriage, it is fact that homosexual relationships cannot qualify as a marriage in the majority of states. Just because something is in the law books doesn't mean that it's the right thing nor does it also mean that because the law disagrees that something is inherently moral or immoral.

I believe that when it comes to abortion that my morals need to be reflected in the laws to protect the lives of the unborn. I don't think someone's personal morals should ever justify the killing of another human life. It's no different when a man in his own moral code believes that it's ok to kill another person for sleeping with his wife or for offending him.

Legal abortion is not restricted to just viability, and even if a fetus isn't viable I do not believe that justified killing it. We know that the fetus will become a viable human being in time. I think this would be similar to pulling the plug on someone who is kept alive via a life support system when we know that within a few weeks that the person on life support will make a full recovery.
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Like I said we will always disagree because I see no logic to consider unvailble cells life or getting rid of them murder or killing.

and I certainly will never see logic in making those unvailble cells more important than the viable mother or ever FORCING her to carry a child that to me never adds up.

Your morals are represented because YOU arent forced to have an abortion, my morals are also represented because you dont get to force yours on me.

Right now unfortunatley for you IMO the law is perfect and very american.
YOU dont have to have an abortion if you dont want to and others can because they arent forced to live by YOUR morals.
 
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